SOLVED!!!!!! 392 CEL Lean Code After Long Tube Header & High Flow Cat Install [Archive] - Dodge Challenger Forum: Challenger & SRT8 Forums

: SOLVED!!!!!! 392 CEL Lean Code After Long Tube Header & High Flow Cat Install


Roomraider
08-23-2011, 09:11 PM
CEl lean code finally solved, cheap!!!! without a tune!!!!
bigdaddiesgarage.com reccomends using both the straight & the angled adapters combined @ post cat for the 5.7 & 6.1. This combo only works well for the 5.7 & 6.1. For the 392 it does solve the post cat CEL issues, only to cause a lean code cel. What I've learned after using both the straight & angled adapters separately & combined is, using the angled cel fix adapter only, solves both post cat & lean CEL codes. Using both the straight cel fix with the angled cel fix adapters together as a combo, seemed to displace the 02 sensors too far away from the exhaust gases, in turn causing the "lean" CEL code.
Goodbye CEL!!!!!!!

http://www.bigdaddiesgarage.com/images/angled-on-black.gif (http://www.bigdaddiesgarage.com/angled-cel-fix.html)
$29.95 each "you'll need 1 for each side of the exhaust/post cat"

nd4topspd
08-23-2011, 10:15 PM
thanks for your info :bigthumb:

SRTDogg
08-23-2011, 10:23 PM
So 6.1 normal method, 6.4 angled method. Part # ?? Thanks!

Edit: N/M see the img is linked, thanks!

Roomraider
08-23-2011, 10:43 PM
So 6.1 normal method, 6.4 angled method. Part # ?? Thanks!

Edit: N/M see the img is linked, thanks!

Correct, the normal method cured the post cat codes, but caused a post cat lean fuel trim code.

Reserched the Dodge trouble tree bulletin & it suggests a post cat exhaust leak as the #1 cause for post cat lean codes. Disconnect both cats, clean flanges thoroughly with a wire brush, reset cel & re-assemble cats.

This may be correct for a stock exhaust, but not for aftermarket long tube headers & High flo cats. The headers are no big deal, it's the high flo cats that throw the codes.

"nd4topspd, no prob. glad to help, it's been a real pain in my arse:notallthere: since the install 06/04/11"

skyrunner
08-24-2011, 04:33 AM
Yes but because we don't have a tune yet don't you run lean and will end up damaging the engine ?

Roomraider
08-24-2011, 08:26 AM
Yes but because we don't have a tune yet don't you run lean and will end up damaging the engine ?

Negative, this is a cat issue. The same gases are passed by the primary 02's as before. Adding hi flow cats causes the post cat 02's to read a higher & unacceptable amount of hydrocarbons, all sorts of codes are thrown because of this. The hi flo cats do not scrub enough hydrocarbons before it's measured past the cats. This is a false Lean code.

By installing the angle cel fix, the o2 sensors are moved further back out of the flow of gases, therefore sniffing less hydrocarbons. By placing them too far out of the flow by using the combo cel fix, tells those post o2's that the fuel to air ratio is well below the programmed parameters & once again a post cat lean trim code is set.

It's a very safe method that's been verified "No lean" condition via sniffer @ the exhaust tips & that's where it counts.

70TA-09RT
08-24-2011, 08:46 AM
Thanks for sharing RR and good knowledge to share beers to you!!!

Roomraider
08-24-2011, 03:08 PM
Thanks for sharing RR and good knowledge to share beers to you!!!


Thanks 70TA-09RT, spread the wealth:guiness:

rmfootball69
08-24-2011, 03:30 PM
Haven't gotten around to fixing it on my 6.1 but definitely great info, gonna save it for when I decide I'm sick of clearing the cel haha

skyrunner
08-25-2011, 04:17 AM
Wasn't asking about the high flow cats , was asking about the long tube headers, I have only seen like 1 or 2 peeps put them on a 392 and thought putting the long tube headers with the combination of the high flows creates a bit of leaning in the fuel mixture. And since there is no tune yet it, don't you worry about other problems happening in the engine since we can't adjust for the increase in air flow?

Roomraider
08-25-2011, 05:23 AM
Wasn't asking about the high flow cats , was asking about the long tube headers, I have only seen like 1 or 2 peeps put them on a 392 and thought putting the long tube headers with the combination of the high flows creates a bit of leaning in the fuel mixture. And since there is no tune yet it, don't you worry about other problems happening in the engine since we can't adjust for the increase in air flow?

The PCM trim compensates for the change up to a certain point, after that, yes you're right, problems crop up. The good thing is just adding headers & a CAI won't breach the factory parameters for trim level adjustment.

No one I know who's added longtube headers have gotten the dreaded flashing CEL for something that serious, only the solid CEL for catalyst codes after adding the hiflo cats. I have'nt tried it, but I'm willing to bet, if someone added longtube headers with the factory cats or equal to, it probably would'nt throw a code @ all.

skyrunner
08-26-2011, 09:23 AM
The big question tho , does it feel any different hehe

Roomraider
08-26-2011, 09:58 AM
The big question tho , does it feel any different hehe

uhhhhhhhhhhh???????????, No. According to Dodge, catalyst codes are not serious enough to send the PCM into limp mode. This is more of just getting rid of a nuisance indicator light. I know a few Challenger owners that have been looking @ that light since 2009.

skyrunner
08-26-2011, 09:18 PM
Haha I meant having the long tubes, high cats and the corsa feel different, I have the solo exhaust high flows and their catback system and it really didn't make it feel any different, altho i felt like i did loose alittle on the low end

Roomraider
08-27-2011, 08:51 AM
Haha I meant having the long tubes, high cats and the corsa feel different, I have the solo exhaust high flows and their catback system and it really didn't make it feel any different, altho i felt like i did loose alittle on the low end

Lol, I'm sorry, misunderstood you. Absolutely, the long tubes really wake up the low end & I have'nt heard an exhaust tone to even come close to the Corsa Extreme. Just a really sweet & mello tone @ idle & cruising speeds, but when you stab it, it really wakes up the monster inside & you'll know it. Violent is the only word I can recall that explains it.

BeltFed
08-27-2011, 11:45 PM
Roomraider,

Thank you so much for your information regarding this issue. I also do have Hennessey Performance Long Tube Headers and High Flow mid-pipes with a CORSA Extreme. I had the original CEL code, then had the bigdaddiesgarage CEL fix with the angled and straight combo installed, only to get the Lean CEL code. At that point I had just given up, and did not know what to do. I have been solely waiting on the tune to not only tune it, but also get rid of the CEL. I cant wait to go to the shop next week and try this out. I have hopes to finally get my Remote Start back, we will see... Thank you again, to you, and the community. :)

vichammer
08-28-2011, 08:51 PM
CEl lean code finally solved, cheap!!!! without a tune!!!!


This is awesome news! The whole CEL issue is what has prevented me from considering long tubes because in NY State you cant pass inspection with a CEL, even if you clear it right before you take it in. Your Kook's long tubes are stepped with catted mid pipes. right? Any chance you can provide the part number? Where did you buy them? Congrats on getting this issue solved. People like you who stand up and do the legwork to get issues like this resolved are what makes this community a great thing to be part of and your efforts are greatly appreciated!

BeltFed
08-29-2011, 03:53 PM
So I went to the shop today to have this change done to my O2 sensors to get rid of that annoying CEL. I had previously done bigdaddiesgarage.com fix, which was a combo of the straight adapter and the angled one. I know the combo fix was installed correctly because I sent BigDaddiesGarage a picture of the install and they confirmed it was done correctly. So now I had the shop take off the straight adapters and only leave the angled ones.

Drove the car for approximately 10 miles and the CEL came back on again. I ran a scan gauge, and it was reading the same P2098 code I was getting before. Is this the same code you were getting?

The mods I have on this car are as follows:
Hennessey Performance Long Tube Headers, which come in a package with the High Flow Mid-pipes, Hennessey Performance Air Induction System (CAI), and CORSA X-treme cat-back exhaust system.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Roomraider
08-29-2011, 04:36 PM
So I went to the shop today to have this change done to my O2 sensors to get rid of that annoying CEL. I had previously done bigdaddiesgarage.com fix, which was a combo of the straight adapter and the angled one. I know the combo fix was installed correctly because I sent BigDaddiesGarage a picture of the install and they confirmed it was done correctly. So now I had the shop take off the straight adapters and only leave the angled ones.

Drove the car for approximately 10 miles and the CEL came back on again. I ran a scan gauge, and it was reading the same P2098 code I was getting before. Is this the same code you were getting?

The mods I have on this car are as follows:
Hennessey Performance Long Tube Headers, which come in a package with the High Flow Mid-pipes, Hennessey Performance Air Induction System (CAI), and CORSA X-treme cat-back exhaust system.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

This is the exact code I was getting, because we have different hardware, you may have to play around with the cel fix to find out exactly which config will work for you. Just the straight mini cel, mini cel first then angle, vice versa or even o2 sensor alone without cel fix on the bank that you're getting the lean code P2098. I suspect it'll be bank 2/pass side.

Heminator
08-29-2011, 05:06 PM
I use the angled O2 spacer on my 5.7 Ram. No problems with codes. Great product. Never tried it on 6.4 and I'd first try just the angled spacer before I tried adding the mini-cat.

nd4topspd
08-29-2011, 07:58 PM
Got my bigdaddiesgarage angle spacers installed tonight and so far so good. I was getting the lean code as well but while under the car I think I found out why. My passenger side rear O2 sensor was loose on the threads just jigglen around. I decided to go ahead and install the angle spacers and see what happens. I also installed my skipshift eliminator while under the car but thats for another thread ;-)

aarcuda
08-30-2011, 07:42 AM
P2098 is post catalyst too lean. why would the angle adapted fix that. if anything, id think that moving the post catalyst o2 sensor away from the flow would make it look leaner, wouldnt it?

I get P0139 and P0159 codes for O2 sensor slow response. I believe thats because I have the steel wool in my extenders and that is blocking too much of the exhaust from the sensor so its too long to respond.

anyways, heres what the service manual says about P2098. looks like they are pointing to an exhaust leak or actual lean conditions down stream.


P2098-DOWNSTREAM FUEL TRIM SYSTEM 2 LEAN (CONTINUED)
For the Engine circuit diagram (Refer to 9 - ENGINE - SCHEMATICS AND DIAGRAMS).
For a complete wiring diagram Refer to Section 8W.
² When Monitored:
With the engine running in closed loop mode, the ambient/battery temperature above (-7°C) 20°F, altitude
below 8500 ft and fuel level greater than 15%.
² Set Condition:
If the PCM multiplies short term compensation by long term adaptive and a certain percentage is exceeded for
two trips, a freeze frame is stored, the MIL illuminates and a trouble code is stored. Two Trip Fault. Three good
trips to turn off the MIL.
Possible Causes
EXHAUST LEAK
ENGINE MECHANICAL PROBLEM
2/2 O2 SENSOR
(K243) O2 2/2 SIGNAL CIRCUIT
(K399) O2 HEATER 2/2 CONTROL CIRCUIT
(K904) O2 DOWNSTREAM RETURN CIRCUIT
FUEL CONTAMINATION
Always perform the Pre-Diagnostic Troubleshooting procedure before proceeding. (Refer to 9 - ENGINE -
DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING).
Diagnostic Test
1. ACTIVE DTC
NOTE: Check the vehicle repair history. If the 2/2 O2 has been
replace make sure that the O2 sensor was properly installed and
meets OEM specification.
NOTE: Check for contaminants that may have damaged the O2
Sensor: contaminated fuel, unapproved silicone, oil and coolant.
Ignition on, engine not running.
With a scan tool, read DTCs.
Is the DTC active at this time?
Yes >> Go To 2
No >> Refer to the INTERMITTENT CONDITION Diagnostic Procedure.
Perform (NGC) POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER
- 5. (Refer to 8 - ELECTRICAL/ELECTRONIC CONTROL
MODULES/POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE - DIAGNOSIS
AND TESTING)
P2098-DOWNSTREAM FUEL TRIM SYSTEM 2 LEAN (CONTINUED)
2. EXHAUST LEAK
Turn the ignition off.
WARNING: To avoid personal injury from the exhaust system being hot, allow the exhaust to cool down to
a safe temperature before performing a physical inspection. Failure to follow these instructions can result in
personal injury or death.
Visually and Physically inspect for holes, cracks and blockage in the exhaust system.
Is the exhaust system is good condition?
Yes >> Go To 3
No >> Repair or Replace as necessary.
Perform (NGC) POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5. (Refer to 8 - ELECTRICAL/ELECTRONIC
CONTROL MODULES/POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING)
3. ENGINE MECHANICAL PROBLEM
Check for any of the following conditions/mechanical problems.
AIR INDUCTION SYSTEM - must be free from leaks
ENGINE VACUUM - must be at least 13 inches in neutral
ENGINE VALVE TIMING - must be within specifications
ENGINE COMPRESSION - must be within specifications
ENGINE EXHAUST SYSTEM - must be free of any restrictions or leaks
ENGINE PCV SYSTEM - must flow freely
TORQUE CONVERTER STALL SPEED - must be within specifications
POWER BRAKE BOOSTER - no internal vacuum leaks
FUEL - must be free of contamination
FUEL INJECTOR - plugged or restricted injector; control wire not connected to correct injector
Are there any engine mechanical problems?
Yes >> Repair as necessary.
Perform (NGC) POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5. (Refer to 8 - ELECTRICAL/ELECTRONIC
CONTROL MODULES/POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING)
No >> Go To 4

nd4topspd
08-30-2011, 02:00 PM
looks like good info aarcuda
I am betting mine was coming on from the loose O2 sensor but I am fixn to take a 500 mile road trip so if it's something else it may return

Roomraider
08-30-2011, 05:46 PM
P2098 is post catalyst too lean. why would the angle adapted fix that. if anything, id think that moving the post catalyst o2 sensor away from the flow would make it look leaner, wouldnt it?

Reading back through the thread "check the 1rst post" you'll find, the manufacturer suggests using a straight mini cat in combination with the angled mini cat CEL fix, the results are a P2098 lean code. After folowing & testing everything in the "trouble tree" identical to the one you posted, I suggested using just the angle mini cat alone, to place the o2 closer to the flow of gases post cat. Works for me, 500 miles & no P2098 CEL. For me the angle cel fix was the happy medium the pcm was looking for.