Turn 50 k on my 2010 challenger RT last week. I drive alot obviously. 70mph down the expressway heard a small pop and the enginge died. would not restart. flatbed to the dealer to find out that there is no compression. crank spining but not the cam. Zero clearance heads means that the valves were smacked by the pistons. nice. I assume the timing chain broke. Has anyone else experienced this. I loved the car till last friday.

Doesnt this fall under the powertrain warrenty?

Do a search there have been tons of posts over the past month about timing chain failures. Mostly on automatics I think. Some have said it has something to do with the MDS.

Chain Failure

Does anyone know if they use the same chain for the 2011 and 2012 model R/T?

Do a search there have been tons of posts over the past month about timing chain failures. Mostly on automatics I think. Some have said it has something to do with the MDS.

This is troubling. I have a 2010 RT auto :/

Yep, it would be nice if "someone in the know" could tell us if a different/updated chain is being used as the replacement.

This problem doesn't appear "widespread", but there have been several with this failure that posted.

I've got a little over 17k on mine, so it'll be a while before I hit the 50k mark. That said, I'll probably be on a road trip in the middle of nowhere when it craps out!

Not a comforting thought. We haven't really been told if this is a "batch" issue with chains, or just random "unluck".

Guess time will tell

Sorry to hear that man....keep us up to date when you get more info please.

Sorry to hear about that problem sailaire. That just plain sux:2232censored::icon_cry:
Yes, please keep up advised of the outcome. Man, I really hope its not another timing chain failure, though it does sound like one based on previous posts on that issue.:slant: Does your car have an auto with MDS, or the manual tranny?
Hopefully they get her back to you good as new very soon.

http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f188/timing-chain-failure-dodge-challenger-69216/
Here's a good thread on the subject.

sorry to hear that, I had check engine light come on and took in to diagnose and had a misfire, left my car idling rough, came from a bad valve and was replaced under warranty!


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It is a 2010 RT Auto with MDS. It looks like it will be covered by the warranty. I will keep you guys updated. It is unfortunatly at a dealership about 150 miles from my house. They are busy and have not even started on it yet.

This problem doesn't appear "widespread", but there have been several with this failure that posted.

I think I've seen about a dozen of these now, including other forums obviously.

sailaire - you put any HP increasing mods on the car?

Don't worry about it according to a couple of guys here on THIS forum timing chain failure is just a fluke. As you will see in many other posts this is happening more and more. Sorry for your lose. I hope dodge one day starts to take this issue here seriously. We need a lot of people to start racking up there miles to see if this warrants more attention.

Ok, I guess I'm going to play the skeptic for a moment. How many times has this happened, if at all, to a long term member on this forum? Are there any long term members that have suffered this problem? It seems like every time I see this come up it is being brought up by a new member, someone that only has 3 or 4 posts and/or just joined the forum.

It would seem that with the thousands of long term members we have here, if it was a common problem some of them would have experienced this first hand or know of someone that had it happen to them first hand.

I'm not questioning the OP here, I'm merely trying to point out that if a handful of people have a problem, then go out and join numerous forums and spead the word, it could make it seem more widespread than it is.

I was just looking at the first few posts from the link by Hizootiemizark and the first guy that says he just had the problem is a brand new member with 3 posts. Mixed in with this are several dealership people (long term members here) that say they haven't ever seen this problem.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened or isn't happening, but I'm not sure how wide spread of a problem it really is. If some of the long time guys that have been on here for years and racked up many miles on their Challengers were coming forth with this problem I think I'd be more convinced that it was widespread.

I'm not saying we shouldn't keep an eye on this potential problem, but if it is widespread I would think that Chrysler would do a recall on it. Cheaper for them to replace timing chains than motors.

Ok, I guess I'm going to play the skeptic for a moment. How many times has this happened, if at all, to a long term member on this forum? Are there any long term members that have suffered this problem? It seems like every time I see this come up it is being brought up by a new member, someone that only has 3 or 4 posts and/or just joined the forum.

It would seem that with the thousands of long term members we have here, if it was a common problem some of them would have experienced this first hand or know of someone that had it happen to them first hand.

I'm not questioning the OP here, I'm merely trying to point out that if a handful of people have a problem, then go out and join numerous forums and spead the word, it could make it seem more widespread than it is.

I was just looking at the first few posts from the link by Hizootiemizark and the first guy that says he just had the problem is a brand new member with 3 posts. Mixed in with this are several dealership people (long term members here) that say they haven't ever seen this problem.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened or isn't happening, but I'm not sure how wide spread of a problem it really is. If some of the long time guys that have been on here for years and racked up many miles on their Challengers were coming forth with this problem I think I'd be more convinced that it was widespread.

I'm not saying we shouldn't keep an eye on this potential problem, but if it is widespread I would think that Chrysler would do a recall on it. Cheaper for them to replace timing chains than motors.

I guess my two cents are this appears to happen to people that have higher miles than most. The bulk of people don't drive their RTs as daily drivers so if this issue crops up after X number of miles a lot may not experience this issue for quite some time... or maybe never base on how few miles a lot of people drive their cars.

This may be an issue that for a certain number of builds they changed sourcing the timing chain or the same place changed the parts so it will only effect those and not others. Remember the issue with the cracked rocker panels? It effected certain builds because the product was sourced from a different manufacture some said.

It would be interesting if all of the people on this forum that have this timing chain issue would have a thread that lists the details of their cars... model, what month/year it was built, manual or automatic etc so we can all see the details of the cars that have this issue.

I did a little poking around on the internet and by searching more generic terms for timing chain and timing belt you will find account after account of problems. Pretty much with seemingly every manufacturer and model. For example google timing chain failure Ford or probably pick any manufacturer and by the results one would think that every brand is having this problem. I don't think that is necessarily the case, but when someone (owning whatever brand) has an issue and goes to the forums, we see the problem but we don't know the overall incident rate.

So the question becomes is the rate of incident in the 5.7 Hemi any greater than the normal failure rate for any motor?

Another question I have, and maybe there is a Chrysler tech out there that can answer it, is the Hemi an interference motor? In other words would the valves come in contact with the pistons if the timing chain breaks?

I've personally thrown a steel double roller timing chain on a 360 V8, this required us to replace the chain but didn't require us to replace the entire motor. So often in these threads on this issue the person with the issue says the dealership is replacing the motor. I would only see this as necessary if the valves came in contact with the pistons. Even then the motor could be rebuilt, but I could see the dealership choosing to replace the motor on a fairly new vehicle as opposed to taking it to say a machine shop for work.

The internet can sometimes make things seem more prevalent than they are simply by the subject being talked about. What we need to know is what is the failure rate of this part in comparison to the norm.

Luke from Stevewhite motors tried to share the failure rate with folks, but everyone turned their nose up at him and accused him of covering things up etc etc etc... perhaps because they didn't want to accept the fact that the failures, to date, appeared to be a small percentage when compared to the number of engines out there.

Admittedly, there was a lot of emotion in that discussion, and I know it doesn't help when you're the guy who has the failure to have someone say your failure was within the expected failure rate (or whatever terms you want to use).

From what I have read (not alot on this subject, but some), it appears to be 5.7 Auto's that are having the problem, and some speculate it is the MDS that is causing it. I wonder if the same timing chain components are used on the 6.4 (based on 5.7 correct?)? I know the 396 is still new but I wonder if we'll see some of the same issues.

Mike

Luke from Stevewhite motors tried to share the failure rate with folks, but everyone turned their nose up at him and accused him of covering things up etc etc etc...
Luke denied there WAS a problem, yet here is another instance of that non-existant problem. He's looking pretty silly now. To paraphrase Luke, "I haven't see it, therefore it isn't happening." Luke was also incorrect and working under the misunderstanding that all 5.7L are the same. They are not. In 2009, the 5.7L engine was changed. One of the changes included a new timing chain tensioner (to replace a previous failed design). Another change was to switch to a much thinner timing chain.

The facts seem to be all bearing out the same. The person is on the highway cruising around 70 mph and the timing chain breaks. Timing chains have popped in the 6-speeds, but that is rare. It seems to be affecting the 5.7L automatics -- and it is a problem.

The reason you see so many new forum members come here to report it is because, if you do an Internet search for "Timing Chain Failure in Dodge Challenger" or "Timing Chain Break in Dodge Challenger" threads in this forum pop up and they are coming to share their stories.

The timing chain has broken on cars ranging from 22k miles to 70k miles and over various model years. That would eliminate the theory of a bad batch of timing chains.

In one instance, the individual who suffered a timing chain break received a new long block (engine and heads) and 4k miles later had it happen again. Good luck trying to sell that person on the idea that there isn't problem with timing chains breaking.

I believe this is the exact same set up that is being used in the 392 autos. So when those engines begin getting up there in mileage, I suspect that we will see those begin breaking as well.

I am a long time member of this forum and we had a club member suffer from this exact problem. The dealer ran him through the ringer. First denying to cover the repair under warranty and then after two months finally conceding.

Is it a problem? -- most definitely. What the cause of the problem is still anyone's guess. Obviously, a thinner timing chain and cam phasing are two things that be be on top of the list of things to look it.

if a company makes 200,000 vehicles per year for 3 years, thats 600,000 vehicles. say out of those 600,000, 30% were one specific engine, then that means there were ~200,000 cars and trucks tith that engine.

so is 12 people had timing chains break, thats .0006%. if 50 people had that problem, its still only .001%

does that say there is a problem? seems pretty low to me.

numbers are approximate

Can anyone elaborate on why the MDS could effect the timing chain breaking?
If MDS is the cause and even if the failure rate is <1%, automatic owners should disable the MDS.

Can anyone elaborate on why the MDS could effect the timing chain breaking?
If MDS is the cause and even if the failure rate is <1%, automatic owners should disable the MDS.

I think this was mainly speculation because the majority of the problems occurred in auto's while cruising at highway speed when the MDS would be engaged/disengaged.

At this point my car has 50k on it and I consider it a major problem when the timing CHAIN goes. Is it an epidemic I can't say but do you trust it again? 20 years ago i drove a ford escort and you had to replace the timing BELT at 50k or it broke. This is not a throw away ford Escort. and it is not a belt. While I agree all mechanical systems are subject to failure I would think it would not happen so early. My car was purchase 12 and a 1/2 months ago. so obviously most of my driving is hwy. There are zero power mods. The car has never been to the drag strip. Have I gotten into it? of course I have or why would I have bought the RT. This is a sports car which you would expect that. I used to beat the hell out of my cars and have only had a timing belt problem with my escort. 2- Thunderbirds ran 175k each nothing but normal maintence. 2 Econolines conversion van 170k No Normal Maint. F150 197k daughter drives it now. No mechanical failures. These vehicle were all approx 5 years old. PT Crusier 100k Transmission blew 3 years old. Challenger 50k timing chain. This is not a little failure. I recieved the sort list from the dealer today. He will call me tomorrow with the full list of replacement parts.

New Heads
New Push Rods
New Oil Pump
New Oild Pump Sending Unit
New Crank Sprocket
New Cam Sprocket
1- new piston
New Timing chain

I do not understand why this is not long blocked but apparently they only do that if the damage reaches 70% of the cost of the new engine.

Thanks for the update, and I can understand the frustrations that you have. You drive it, and at 50k.............."pop".

Did the dealer say that the replacement chain is the same type of chain, or has there been an "updated" version for replacement??

Hang in there and keep us posted

Anyone know if there is a more durable aftermarket chain and or tensioner available?

Update....
Turns out 2 pistons need replacing. All the parts are in they said I should have it by tomorrow. OOPS> turns out only one of the new heads that came in has valves in it. Now they have to order valves. NICE!!

UPDATE: TIMING CHAIN NOISE BEFORE FAILURE
I got my car back today and realized something. A few days Before the timing chain went I accelerated hard from a stop and heard a rattle at high RPM. I did not think it was engine noise. I did it a second timing and heard the noise again. I do all the work on my own cars so I have a clue. When I got my car back today I drove it 150 miles home. After 150 miles I got in it and there was no rattle at high RPM. Maybe it was the Hemi cover or something stupid making the noise and the mechanic tightened it up when he put it back together or maybe it was the timing chain vibrating at high rpm. I may never know. but if I hear it again I will check the timing chain. Did anyone else hear any noise before their went.

Zd


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Only thing I can think of why the auto MDS chains are breaking more than the non MDS is possibly from the sudden shock from the MDS turing on and off all the time. When its in MDS mode it has less tention on the chain, then the MDS turns off causing a shock to the chain from the sudden load. Just a possiblity and might not be why. Im guessing here but I say its a very good guess. :)

I believe I can speak for all of us when I say we LOVE our Challengers. When this happens to one of us that is one too many. Many of us are bank financed and hopefully warranted for the long haul. A dealer piecemealing our brother's engine is absurdity unto itself and an unacceptable solution without curing the problem whatever it may be. I for one would be SOL because this is my one and only means of transportation.

This scares me.


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I copied this from the other site - check it out........."theres some thing wrong with the 05-07 3.5's and the 06-07 hemi (http://www.******************/forums/showthread.php?t=103217&highlight=timing+chain&page=2#) timing chain guides. on the hemis when the chain guide starts to go out you will start the car in the morning cold and the motor will run smooth and quite. no ticks or noises at all-than at around 140 degress the motor will make a very small knocking sound in the bottom end like a piston pin or piston knocking-its sounds like [knock-knockknock-knock] its not in timing with the rotation of the motor-than at 160-180 degress durning warm up it will start to knock in prefect time with the rotation of the crank [knockknockknockknock]
than at 190-210 degress the knock goes away 100%- the knocking sound is the pcm trying to adjust the timing of the motor because the chain is rocking around and cant keep the valve timing-so the adaptive learning is taking over and trying its best to keep the car runing and the cats from over or under heating.
you will also notice a very small throttle miss once in a while when the motor is cold-or hot also if you rev the motor a little when its knocking by 200 rpms the knocking goes away. now if you rev the motor a little when its cold [2000 rpms] and let off the throttle you will hear the exhaust make a pop pop pop like glass packs on a old hot rod if you blip the throttle. this is from the adaptive learning cranking up the fuel trying to keep the car runing. your spark plus will be a very dark brown from runing too rich.
THE 3.5's are going bad aroung 30.000 miles-if it doesnt go out by then-than its a good one and wont go untill 90-100 thousand miles
now the hemis its a shot in the dark-some are going out at 30k or less miles/some at around 50k-and some dont go out at all.
this bull chit design is the same crap ford uses on the 3.0 and the 4.0 motors that craps out all the time on them.
mine just went out just like that-the plastic guide came off the chain tensonor and ate the chain up riding metal on metal-needless to say it destroyed my motor that only has 26k on it [valve threw a piston at 3000 rpms]-and not only do i need a motor but i also need new cats and i have to try and save my exhaust if i can.
the insides of the cats melted down and most of the inside of the cats are now stick in my borla's that i have

I'm basically just waiting for mine to pop. I've had it in 4 times when they replaced cam sensors and an oil control solenoid (several times). All of these can be misdiagnosed or caused by the timing chain / tensioner. Moreover the 4 times I've had it in the shop they've road tested it a grand total of .6 miles. They aren't even testing it, they're just replacing whatever part the code is complaining about and resetting the code.

On top of that over the last month or two the car is running more and more rough, especially at idle or when the mds kicks in and has exceedingly poor acceleration compared to when I got it a year ago.

I have a 1,700 mile round trip coming up in a few weeks and fully expect for it to die along the way. Really depressing considering it's a brand new car still and how much I love it. :|

BTW, 2010 RT auto.

So it appears that this isnt a new problem, MDS has been around for a while but now seems to be a common factor in the old and newer 5.7 Automatic car failures.

I'm basically just waiting for mine to pop. I've had it in 4 times when they replaced cam sensors and an oil control solenoid (several times). All of these can be misdiagnosed or caused by the timing chain / tensioner. Moreover the 4 times I've had it in the shop they've road tested it a grand total of .6 miles. They aren't even testing it, they're just replacing whatever part the code is complaining about and resetting the code.

On top of that over the last month or two the car is running more and more rough, especially at idle or when the mds kicks in and has exceedingly poor acceleration compared to when I got it a year ago.

Your plight sounds eerily similar to what happened to another forum member. See: http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f37/cylinder-misfire-code-cel-61754/index2.html#post864177