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Track Talk This is the place to post time slips, track stories, track photos and videos, and track event info


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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2009, 01:10 PM
toofart's Avatar
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Why the 6 speeds are slower than the auto (datalogging info too)

I went to the track yesterday, and this time I datalogged a few of my runs. I was monitoring 8 PIDs - RPM, MPH, Throttle position, KNK ST, KNK Fuel, Intake Air Temp, Open Loop FA and KNK LT.

I wanted to examine how much time my car 'coasted' without power while I clutch and shift. I was boggled by the results, since they were consistent among all three runs.

To calculate the time it takes me to shift, I look at the last frame which shows acceleration. Then I count the frames until I see acceleration again, meaning a return of power to the wheels. In my case, one frame is 88ms.

Look at the blue line on this chart:




On all three of the runs I logged, here are my results:

1-2 shift: 623ms (that's over half a second!!!)
2-3 shift: 445ms
3-4 shift: 445ms

Add it up -- On a 13.85s run, that's 1.5 second of time the rear wheels are not being powered. I'll admit that I could be more aggressive with my 2-3 and 3-4 shifts, but my 1-2 shift is quite poor.

If I can reduce my shift time to 300ms for 1-2 and 300ms for 3-4, that alone would reduce my ET by at least .4!

My father in law has an R/T auto. I'll 'borrow' his car later and log the time the auto takes to shift so I can compare.

Another thing that is useful with the logged data is to see how badly your wheels spin in 2nd gear. Look at this mess:




The track was absolutely horrible and on this run, and I managed a 2.8 0-60ft. Awful. Look at the purple line at marker '1' ... I was feathering the gas throughout first gear. Notice how I finally just slam it at the top of first and get massive wheel spin (marker 2). A sharp rise in MPH (blue line) followed by a sharp decrease, then coast, is a sure sign of spinning before the shift. Into second gear, the MPH increase is brisk, but again the wheels are only slipping for a few tenths until the curve settles.


As a side note, with all the work I have done with the DataViewer, I have learned that

a) data logging works by polling the ECU for one PID at a time. It doesn't say 'give me the values for all these 12 PIDs'. It sais 'what is RPM now?' ... 'RPM is 1050'. 'What is Intake temp now?' .. '79' really fast.

b) it takes 11 milliseconds to poll the ECU for one PID and get one result

In my case, I have 8 PIDs, so by the time my device polls all the PIDs, 88 ms have passed. So if you want more precision, reduce the PIDs to the absolute minimum. I'll be removing Open Loop FA and KNK LT, reducing my sample rate to 66ms.
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09
Challenger R/T 6 speed
JBA shorties :: JBA catless mids ::
Blastin Bobs glasspacks :: Mopar WAI :: Hurst shifter
DCX Depot tune :: LC-1 wideband o2 :: Napa #165 t-stat
:: Nitto NT555 265/50/18s
On order: Magnacharger

13.05@107.3 60': 1.88 1830' DA
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2009, 01:17 PM
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As a side note, yesterday at the track, I wanted to test my new Nitto tires. Unfortunately, the many coats of rubber on the track surface were peeling off due to cold weather and lots of rain lately, so I actually left the track with more rubber on my tires. I am not kidding.

The track owners don't even have a brush to scrape the surface. It was like accelerating on snow. My best 60ft time was 2.3, and a few cars almost smacked the guard rail in second gear. What a waste of time -- everyone was complaining.
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09
Challenger R/T 6 speed
JBA shorties :: JBA catless mids ::
Blastin Bobs glasspacks :: Mopar WAI :: Hurst shifter
DCX Depot tune :: LC-1 wideband o2 :: Napa #165 t-stat
:: Nitto NT555 265/50/18s
On order: Magnacharger

13.05@107.3 60': 1.88 1830' DA
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Old 07-05-2009, 02:59 PM
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Do they not have a tiger torch?? That would burn the rubber off at least....

good info....I get my DSP this week, so i will do some data loggin and hopefully hit the track and we can compare results.
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09 Challenger R/T, 6-Speed, Deep Water Blue.
Current MODS:
DiabloSport Predator w/ Custom Tune, Roto-Fab CAI, 85mm TB, Doug Thorley Long-Tubes, Cat-Less Mids, Pypes Violators, Innovate OT-2 with LC-1 Wideband, 180* T-Stat, BT Catch Can, Hurst Short Shifter, Viper LX wheels, Nitto NT-05R (315/35R20).
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Old 07-05-2009, 04:30 PM
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There is an easy solution to this...dont take your foot off the gas when you shift.
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09 RT Auto:
stock, 1.94 60', 13.12 @ 108.16 (3 days old)
Current NA: 60' 1.68, 12.441 @ 109.24
Current w/100 ZEX shot: 1.59 60', 11.691 @ 115+



Port matched shorty headers
Catless mids
Magnaflow catback
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Modded RT air box w/K&N drop in
Pred with CMR tune from DXC Depot
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dodgetony View Post
There is an easy solution to this...dont take your foot off the gas when you shift.
but get-R-done quick, and don't miss!!!

.... I've power shifted on the stock shifter, but I'm VERY much looking forward to when my Hurst FINALY arrives....

The stock shifter is nice. Fine 90% of the time, but the feel is a bit loose IMO When I slam this shifter I alwase feel something is going to let go... So far so good though..
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everything else but GPS from the factory.
Mods: MOPAR CAI / Corsa Exhaust. /Hood Struts / Scoop mod/ catch can/
Diablosport Predator tune/Jet 180* Tstat /Hurst Comp+ w Raked Shifter Rod/ Braided lines / more coming..
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 09r/t View Post
Do they not have a tiger torch?? That would burn the rubber off at least....
Not even. These guys have a big blower and rakes. The next closest track is an hour and a half away, and it's always where I did my best times when I was racing 15 years ago (at least .3 to .5 faster).
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09
Challenger R/T 6 speed
JBA shorties :: JBA catless mids ::
Blastin Bobs glasspacks :: Mopar WAI :: Hurst shifter
DCX Depot tune :: LC-1 wideband o2 :: Napa #165 t-stat
:: Nitto NT555 265/50/18s
On order: Magnacharger

13.05@107.3 60': 1.88 1830' DA
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dodgetony View Post
There is an easy solution to this...dont take your foot off the gas when you shift.
Yeah I do want to drive the car home, though.
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09
Challenger R/T 6 speed
JBA shorties :: JBA catless mids ::
Blastin Bobs glasspacks :: Mopar WAI :: Hurst shifter
DCX Depot tune :: LC-1 wideband o2 :: Napa #165 t-stat
:: Nitto NT555 265/50/18s
On order: Magnacharger

13.05@107.3 60': 1.88 1830' DA
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:27 PM
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Don't know about you guys, but my 2-3 is "iffy" as to whether it locks in or not. I've had more embarrassment in that gear than anything.

Nice logging toofart. I appreciate your effort...interesting data. Were you speed-shifting? Would be intereseting to see the results under those circumstancees?

**Edit, saw that you weren't speed shifting in prev post
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'09 R/T Black, 6spd, 3.92 LSD

Skip Shift Eliminator | Hurst shifter | No-ESP | K&N drop-in | Predator 91 CAI tune | 170* T-Stat | Innovate LM2 | SRT headers/mids | Custom Magnaflow exhaust | Mopar Stg II Coilovers | Hotchkis sway bars | Intro "Newstalgic" billet wheels 20X8.5/20X10

Other rides:
1967 GTO 400 4 spd
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:43 PM
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Dare we compare...

R/T auto without even a Predator tune:




163 ms for a shift, it's hardly even noticeable...
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09
Challenger R/T 6 speed
JBA shorties :: JBA catless mids ::
Blastin Bobs glasspacks :: Mopar WAI :: Hurst shifter
DCX Depot tune :: LC-1 wideband o2 :: Napa #165 t-stat
:: Nitto NT555 265/50/18s
On order: Magnacharger

13.05@107.3 60': 1.88 1830' DA
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:59 PM
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Not too surprising results. The 1960's "Four on the Floor" was designed to be faster than the ridiculous "Three on the Tree" and also the three speed slush box autos of the day. Nowadays, you just can't compare to the fast shifting and efficient five speed Mercedes autos that the Challenger comes with, especially with Predator tune. Mine shifts so hard it will throw the car sideways if I want it to.
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