Difference between 5.7 and 6.4 - Page 11 - Dodge Challenger Forum: Challenger & SRT8 Forums
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 05:39 PM
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An Inside Look at the New 392/6.4L HEMI®

Nice video from SRT engineers showing off the 392. Skip to 0:58 where the engineer cites even at very low RPMs the 392 has +45 lb-ft more torque at 1600 RPM than the 6.1.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 05:49 PM
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What are you more interested in...what a person says in a promo piece or how the stuff actually measures? For all you know, maybe it is not much more than 20 lb-ft difference. Is anybody really going to fine-tooth comb such a detail at 1600 rpm just to check?
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by randycat99 View Post
What are you more interested in...what a person says in a promo piece or how the stuff actually measures? For all you know, maybe it is not much more than 20 lb-ft difference. Is anybody really going to fine-tooth comb such a detail at 1600 rpm just to check?
And for all you know, the delta is exactly what the SRT engineer is claiming.

Like every engine Chrysler releases, the 392 has thousands of hours of data-logging and dyno testing. They know exactly what the TQ curve response is at every RPM between idle and fuel shut-off. Ditto for the 6.1 and 5.7.

Regarding your home-grown dyno graph comparison, the effort is laudable and I appreciate the work behind it. But ultimately it is not very useful because we all know the myriad variables which affect dyno runs. Get bone stock 3.91 M6 5.7 R/T, 6.1 SRT, and 392 SRT Challengers all with the same mileage and tire diameter and all tested on the same day on the same dyno under identical conditions and then overlay the three graphs. Otherwise don't bother - too many variables to track.

Can't be easily done you claim? Then get all three cars (again all M6 3.91 same diameter tires) out on deserted stretches of road and do timed roll-ons in 4th gear from 1000 RPM to 4000 RPM, including split intervals (1-2, 2-3, 3-4). Then weigh them all at a local truck scale to compensate for differences in curb weight/driver. The timed deltas can then easily be converted to differences in acceleration from which power/TQ can then be derived - it's basic high school math and physics. Now that would be a fun day!
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Old 07-28-2012, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Heminator View Post
And for all you know, the delta is exactly what the SRT engineer is claiming.
That goes with exactly the point I'm making...neither you or I can fully know which way or what degree this has occurred to definitively call "foul" on the other. That's all I'm saying. You say a Dodge representative can say one thing, and I say they can just as easily say another thing. There is no indication of "proof" just because "somebody from Dodge" says it...that's just real world pragmatism, I suppose.

Like every engine Chrysler releases, the 392 has thousands of hours of data-logging and dyno testing. They know exactly what the TQ curve response is at every RPM between idle and fuel shut-off. Ditto for the 6.1 and 5.7.
Yes, they DO know. That doesn't mean you are privy to exactly what they found. You are only privy to what has been vetted as officially released material suitable for exhibition and marketing activities. That's what I am trying to tell you. That is why an independent dyno test is absolutely a crucial detail to check'n'balance the whole scene.

...But ultimately it is not very useful because we all know the myriad variables which affect dyno runs.
Yes, that is absolutely true, and that is where a "twist" in my process is actually a step forward past all these issues. Dyno tests indeed do shift around a bit due to myriad factors in play, but the shape of the curve is something that should be fairly consistent if it is a well-captured run. The scalar values that do shift around from run to run are unimportant in this process, rather an accurate representation of the relative positions of such data points is what I am pursuing. Then I take the scalar value variances and mystery drivetrain losses conundrum out of the matter altogether, and use the manufacturer's own stated pk numbers as targets for the curve shape to hit. That's the beauty of it! Everybody's dynos get normalized to the same manufacturer numbers (whether it is a good run or bad run, and either you have faith in the manufacturer numbers or not)...hence the playing field is inherently level. The curve shape then reveals how much low end torque or top end extension or mid range peakiness is in play for those peak numbers to check-out.

Put in most simple of terms, the manufacturer goes on record with 2 data points (pk hp, pk torque), and then I figure out the curve that lays on those points based on actual dyno runs. Is it infallible?...no. Does it circumvent a lot of the murkiness that is rampant in the more traditional processes of comparing engines?...yes, absolutely!

To be clear, I absolutely do NOT offer my material as in any way "definitive". It's just an alternative and unique piece of information that you can either choose to consider or ignore. The choice is always up to you. I don't have an incentive to swing things "good" or "bad" to support an agenda, but I do have an incentive to make my time/effort count by seeking out "good" data, to the limits that I can discern such. Either you feel I am worthy of consideration for that caliber of material or not.

Last edited by randycat99; 07-28-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2012, 10:09 AM
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This thread gives everything but an answer to the OP's original question. I do not lease cars so I would need to know the real financial numbers in this exchange. I am familiar with Company cars - which are leased by my employer. If my boss asked me if I wanted to exchange my current 5.7 for a new 6.4 = What do you think my answer would be? Come on - honestly - what would your answer be? "Duh, let me think about it boss. I've heard good things about the 6.4 but I like my old 5.7." Get a grip! If the OP is going to continue to lease the 5.7 for another two years there has to be some financial burden he did not mention. I absolutely love my 5.7 but if there was some mysterious "5.7 absolute recall" and I had the choice of "repairing" my 5.7 or exchanging it immediately for a new 6.4 = straight swap = There would be some swapping going on.
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Last edited by BEIST; 07-28-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2012, 10:39 AM
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The OP is going to need to bring a lot of cash to the table. To get out of a lease with 2 years remaining is extremely expensive. Unless the car has been driven way less miles than allotted. Either cash to get the 392 or they will roll the negative equity into the new car.

I think you should investigate how much this is going to cost to get out of the lease. Maybe you checked already and can swing it. I just thought you might want to check. It may surprise you.
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Old 07-29-2012, 06:20 PM
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Here is another real life example of the torque difference, driving my 09 RT to the dealer for trade in, I had removed the 1-4 skip disable device to keep it. Every intersection that I accelerated normally away from the skip shift engaged (forgot how much I hated that thing) and would have to shift into 4th. If road is flat it bogs down badly and spark knocks but uphil you must go through the motion of going into 4th but must downshift to keep the engine running. The 5.7 simply lacks the low end to execute the 1-4 skip smoothly.

900 miles now on my 12 SRT and driving the same roads my SRT has engaged 1-4 skip only one time and the low end torque easily handled it without any of the drama the 5.7 did. I would guess that the torque and as a result the different gearing of the SRT result in almost no activations and when it does, it is a perfectly acceptable shift pattern for the conditions?

All of the "feel" differences are hard to quantify but examples like this occur daily and as I have said earlier in this thread, I did not feel in 09 the $7K cost delta between the RT and SRT were justified and even though on the outside people just think i added vinyl graphics to the RT, I absolutely believe the $20K price delta between my 09 RT and the 12 SRT was
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2012, 09:58 AM
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I now have completed 14/36 month lease, so I am almost getting there.

It will be kinda expensive to get out of the lease now, so the best bet will be to wait until I get about 33 months completed and look into the SRT8 of that year.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SparkChicken View Post
Please enlighten us, what bolt-ons exactly... I am sure there are a lot of 5.7 owners out there that would like to know how to get those times...
Just saw this thread and had to laugh when I got to this point lol. My R/T ran a 13.48 stock, then with drag radials and an exhaust it ran a 12.83, after the predator I dropped down to a 12.56, then I put shorties and catless mids on and ran a 12.45 in 15mph head wind..that was two years ago and since then I've added brembo's so I havnt been back on the track with drag radials since I don't have anything that fits over brembo's. But I have run multiple 12.6s-12.7s on street tires as well. Hope to dip into the 12.1-12.2s after I put the 3200 FTI and blue tops in (that is, if I have some 17" rims for the track by then).

Oh and I believe I'm the only one out of the three mid 12second R/Ts listed that has catless mids.
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2012, 09:11 PM
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Wow, your RT is krypto-smokin'!
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