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Timing chain failure on the Dodge Challenger

1M views 6K replies 443 participants last post by  Mopar Frank 
#1 · (Edited)
I have been finding many reports of the timing chain breaking on the Dodge Challenger, mostly in the 5.7L Hemi engines. The timing chain breaks in most reported instances around the 35K-40K mile range.

Once the timing chain breaks, the end result is usually the valves smacking the pistons which bend the valves, damages the pistons and leads to catastrophic engine failure. This often requires a new long block.

How many of you have had the timing chain break? How many miles on the car when when it happened? and what was your experience in getting it repaired?

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Known instances of the timing chain breaking on the 5.7L Dodge Challenger just in this forum alone in the past few months:

1. 06/27/2011 -- mileage not mentioned -- ... come to find out the timing chain broke ...

2. 07/19/2011 -- 85,000 miles -- ... and the timing chain broke...

3. 09/27/2011 -- 33,385 miles -- 2009 R/T Motor Broke

4. 11/23/2011 -- 38,000 miles -- Club member's car. Broken timing chain. Car in shop for over two months.

5. 12/07/2011 -- 34,000 miles -- I found this thread the hard way...

6. 12/19/2011 -- 22,600 miles -- 2010 Challenger - Timing Chain Breaks...

7. 01/21/2012 -- 60,000 miles -- Engine went..........

8. 02/02/2012 -- 38,000 miles -- 2009 Challenger R/T lost a second motor .. (Second occurrence. See #3 above. 4,000 miles on new motor).

9. 03/08/2012 -- 50,000 miles -- BLOWN ENGINE 50,000 miles

10. 03/23/2012 -- 14,000 miles -- ... my timing chain snapped

11. 04/04/2012 -- 53,500 miles -- My timing chain just broke today ...

12. 04/16/2012 -- 46,000 miles -- Mine is in the shop with a broken timing chain...

13. 04/27/2012 -- 31,000 miles -- My chain broke back in December of 2011 ...

14. 05/22/2012 -- 37,000 miles -- Here's another 2010 Auto R/T with a broken timing chain! ...

15. 06/13/2012 -- 40,257 miles -- I too have a broken timing chain ...

16. 06/23/2012 -- 38,485 miles -- Guess I can be added to the list ...

17. 06/26/2012 -- 38,500 miles -- Just happened last Saturday ...

18. 08/02/2012 -- 59,134 miles -- ... all of a sudden Bam the engine shuts down

19. 08/03/2012 -- 38,000 miles -- I had this happen at 38000 miles, 2010 R/T Auto

20. 08/08/2012 -- 27,000 miles -- The timing chain on my 2010 R/T just broke ...

21. 08/10/2012 -- 59,300 miles -- ... timing chain broke again. (Third occurrence. See #3 and #8 above. 16,000 miles on new motor).

22. 08/10/2012 -- 63,000 miles -- ... timing chain broke cruising at 70mph on the highway

23. 09/03/2012 -- 40,000 miles -- ... while driving to dallas my timing chain broke

24. 09/11/2012 -- 24,000 miles -- Welp - chalk up another one ... (first 2011 to be reported here)

25. 09/21/2012 -- 31,100 miles -- This just happened a few days ago ...

26. 10/10/2012 -- 42,559 miles -- Well it's looking like I'm the latest timing chain victim ...

27. 10/24/2012 -- 65,000 miles -- ... driving on the highway 65MPH and "Pop goes to weasel"

28. 11/18/2012 -- 40,000 miles -- Mine just broke...2010 mopar 10, no mods, auto ... (first to break not at highway speeds)

29. 11/19/2012 -- 39,000 miles -- just got another 2010 with 39000 in today ...

30. 12/04/2012 -- 40,000 miles -- The timing chain on my 2010 Auto RT broke last Friday ...

31. 12/09/2012 -- miles pending -- ... R/T not running at the moment timing chain broke ...

32. 12/11/2012 -- 27,000 miles -- ... cruising on the interstate at 70, MDS on, when suddenly loss of power ...

33. 01/03/2013 -- 58,000 miles -- ... the dealer has confirmed that I did have a timing chain failure.

34. 01/22/2013 -- 40,000 miles -- It has been confirmed I as well did have a broken timing chain

35. 01/22/2013 -- 43,000 miles -- 2010 R/T, 5-speed auto with mds. No mods at all.

36. 02/22/2013 -- 52,000 miles -- ... it happen to me this weekend ...

37. 04/15/2013 -- 55,000 miles -- I have now become victim to a failed timing chain

38. 04/20/2013 -- 73,000 miles -- cruising at 65 mph, in MSD, engine 'shut down'

39. 05/13/2013 -- 66,000 miles -- lost it on the interstate doing 73 in MDS

40. 05/20/2013 -- 56.616 miles -- ... on the freeway headed to work in the rain and Wham

41. 05/24/2013 -- 28,000 miles -- the chain went on the highway at 70+ mph

42. 06/07/2013 -- 88,256 miles -- ... driving down the highway heard a loud pop ...

43. 07/01/2013 -- 52,000 miles -- Timing chain broke on freeway ...

44. 07/23/2013 -- 54,057 miles -- Was in a canyon going uphill at about 55mph ... (claims MDS not engaged)

45. 07/26/2013 -- 49,000 miles -- Cruising along 65 mph engine stalled.

46. 08/10/2013 -- 22,281 miles -- I wish I found this topic sooner

47. 09/17/2013 -- 40,091 miles -- driving 74 mph in cruse control just died ...

48. 10/04/2013 -- 68,000 miles -- Add another one to the list OMG.

49. 10/22/2013 -- 89,000 miles -- Timing chain went on my 09 Challenger

50. 11/13/2013 -- 55,320 miles -- I had hoped I would never be posting this message ...

51. 11/13/2013 -- 42,342 miles -- Just got up to highway speed Bam Powerloss ...

52. 11/21/2013 -- 53,000 miles -- Add me to the list of failures ...

53. 11/27/2013 -- 73,000 miles -- I was cruising at highway speeds (70 mph), in MDS

54. Recall initiated, see below.

Remember, these reports are from this forum alone. Real world numbers are greatly increased.

The things in common when the timing chain breaks so far are:

1. MDS is activated (auto trans., so 6-speed are excluded)
2. Traveling at freeway speeds (or coming off of freeway)
3. 2009-2011 model years affected so far.
4. Limited to the 5.7L motor so far
5. Dodge Challenger only

Things ruled out thus far:

A. 6-speed manual transmissions not affected
B. Other 5.7L vehicles not affected, i.e., Charger, 300, Ram truck
C. New guide shoe (white color) has also failed (see #8 on list of failures)
D. New crate motor has also failed (see #3 and #8 on list of failures)
E. Both stock and mod cars affected
F. Both stock tune and Predator tune (with MDS turned on) affected
G. All oil change intervals affected, i.e., 3,000 miles, 5,000 miles, etc.
H. All types of oil affected, i.e., both synthetic and conventional oil

* Author's notes (last updated 10/28/13):

(1) When I created this thread, I was so taken back by a timing chain failure happening and discovering at least a half dozen similar occurrences, that I attempted to discover if anyone here had experienced a timing chain failure and what their dealership experience was. I got a lot of adverse feedback along the lines of "alarmist" and "chicken little" and other name calling, including some from dealerships and master mechanics, as can be seen in just the first few hundred posts below. Many attempted to derail this thread by taking it off-topic on many, many occasions. Some are still out there promoting denial of the issue. Still, the problem remains, it is real and it continues to plague fellow Challenger owners.

(2) The timing chain concern can be alleviated by disabling MDS (a band-aid solution not a fix). All but one recent report have shown that MDS was engaged and the car was traveling at freeway speeds. You can prevent MDS from being activated by switching into manual mode while driving on the freeway. You can read How to use the Autostick feature and manual mode here. You can also use a tuner to disable the MDS feature, but be forewarned, if the dealership discovers your use of a tuner on the car, you are in for a fight to get the repairs done under warranty.

(3) Chrysler is aware of the issue and has been monitoring this thread for some time regardless of they might tell you. In addition, many people have already telephoned customer service and have written to Chrysler directly. But, even without all of that, you don't have timing chains, tensioners, heads and short blocks rolling out of the warehouse in the numbers that they have without raising some internal red flags of a potential issue.

(4) Talks of running off to court and filing a lawsuit over this issue are misguided. Your warranty specifically states that you MUST first submit the matter to arbitration. Any lawsuit would be immediately dismissed, and now you are out the filing fees.

(5) When I first created this thread, the weekly parts demand for timing chains was at about 15. It is currently hovering around 35 at the moment.

(6) Chrysler has switched from the black tensioner and guide to white (supposedly stronger) and then to an aluminum tensioner and guide with a plastic face plate (the current part). Both black and white guides have failed. No reports of the aluminum failing yet but they are relatively new first showing up in mid-2013 R/T's.

(7) The exact cause of the timing chain failure is still unknown. In fact, it may never been known. There are just too many factors involved to isolate the problem, and if we haven't discovered the cause in over 350,000 page views, how can we expect Chrysler to? While there is a lot of speculation as to the exact cause, which seems to go round-and-round every few hundred posts, it is all just that -- speculation. What we do for for certain is that MDS is playing a part in the timing chain failures.

(8) Special shout outs to Desert Bum, Hal H, hmk123, Force10, 19johned53, and the nameless many who have helped to keep this issue real and on topic. Your comments are appreciated.

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* Author's notes (last updated 02/12/14):

Customer Satisfaction Notification P01
Engine Timing Chain and Chain Guide
Models
IMPORTANT: Some of the involved vehicles may be in dealer used vehicle inventory. Dealers should complete this repair on these vehicles before retail delivery. Dealers should also perform this repair on vehicles in for service. Involved vehicles can be determined by using the VIP inquiry process.
Subject
Repair
2009-2012 (LC) Dodge Challenger
(LD) Dodge Charger
(LX) Chrysler 300
NOTE: This recall applies only to the above vehicles equipped with a 5.7L Hemi engine (sales code EZD or EZH), automatic transmission (sales code DGJ) and rear axle ratio 3.06, 3.73 or 3.92 (sales code DMP, DME or DMH) built from August 04, 2008 through July 10, 2012 (MDH 080406 through 071008).
The engine timing chain guide on about 50,800 of the above vehicles may fracture. A fractured engine timing chain guide could cause the engine timing chain to break. A broken engine timing chain will result in severe engine damage.
The engine timing chain, timing chain tensioner and timing chain guide must be replaced.
Customer Satisfaction Notification P01 Engine Timing Chain and Chain Guide Page 2
Part Number Description
CBPRN291AA Engine Timing Chain Package
Each package contains the following components:
Quantity Description
1 Chain, Engine Timing
1 Guide, Engine Timing Chain
1 Tensioner, Engine Timing Chain
1 O-ring, Oil Pick-up Tube
1 Gasket, Engine Timing Cover
NOTE: Order two heater tube O-rings separately listed below for each repair.
Part Number Description
53013736AA O-ring, Heater Tube (order two per vehicle)
Each dealer
to whom vehicles in the recall were assigned will receive enough Engine Timing Chain Packages to service about 5% of those vehicles.

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Recall type:

Customer Satisfaction Notification - Customer Satisfaction Notifications are preventive in nature and involve warranty or customer satisfaction issues such as non-safety repairs. Chrysler will correct the problem, at no charge, even if the vehicle is out of warranty and you are not the original owner.

You can check if your vehicle is subject to the timing chain issue recall (or any other recall) by visiting the Chrysler website and entering your vehicle's VIN number. Visit: http://www.chrysler.com/en/mobile/webselfservice/

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We really want to thank everyone who wrote us, (Pietro), with their timing chain concerns. The engineering team has completed their work and the following statement has been released. If there are any questions, reach out to us on this forum as opposed to sending an email as that will be quicker.

Chrysler Group is launching a customer-service action to bolster timing-chain system durability in certain cars equipped with 5.7-liter HEMI® V-8 engines.

The decision follows an extensive investigation to determine the precise issue and appropriate remedy.
The investigation discovered the engine’s fuel-saving cylinder-deactivation technology may cause an adverse interaction with the timing-chain system. (Chrysler Group is unaware of any related injuries or accidents.) As a result, the Company will replace – at no cost to customers – the timing chains, tensioners and guides in certain vehicles built between Aug. 4, 2008 and July 10, 2012.

Affected are certain model-year 2009-2012 Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 full-size sedans, and Dodge Challenger sport coupes. The scope is limited to vehicles equipped with 5-speed automatic transmissions and axle ratios of 3.06, 3.73 or 3.92.

Beginning this month, Chrysler Group will contact affected customers with instructions to schedule service appointments with their dealers.

Chrysler Group greatly appreciates the patience demonstrated by its customers while this issue was under investigation. The Company also values and shares the passion expressed on these pages by customers and fans alike.

Thanks,

DodgeCares
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Article: Timing Chain Failure on the Dodge Challenger – Ground Zero

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#2,569 ·
Carbon buildup has nothing to do with the 5.7 or Dodge, it comes from running cheap lower octane gas. I had a 5.7 with about 80,000 or so on it when the CEL came on due to a plugged Cat. My smog guy told me to run a few tanks of 91 through it with the tow swich on to keep it reved up and that might clean it out. Well I FINALLY read the manual and sure as hell it said to run 89 oct in it! So I ran a few tanks of 91 through it, then went to GOOD 89 like Chevron and mostly Shell. The issue completely cleared up after awhile and have never had an issue since. Just pulled the plugs again at 195,000, about 90,000 on the plugs, and I COULD NOT BELIEVE HOW CLEAN THEY WERE!!! I actually wanted to keep them to show all my friends~! LOL!! When I first got my Challenger with the 5.7, the guy told me I could run regular gas, but once again the manual said 89 is RECOMMENDED. Read that manual that came with the car, you can learn a lot from it. ;)

I have no idea what Diesels have to do with this thread, but yes I had a Cummins in a Ram and it ran completely faultless for 300,000 miles. Then I finally ran it head on into an Oak tree at 80 and that was that! May she rest in peace, she was a great truck!

I also have a 5.7 in a Ram, and except for the converter issue from cheap gas, I've had no problems whatsoever with it, now at 197,000 miles. That's why i bought the Challenger R/T with the 5.7. COMPLETELY diffrent story there!

So now I went out and bought a 2010 SRT8 with only 700 miles on it. I've been switching back and forth between the two for the last week or two, and to be completely honest, I think I'm going to resale the SRT and keep the R/T!!! Not sure yet, I'm going to weight them both in the next few days. But after putting 500 miles on the SRT, I'm not sold at all, in fact like I said before, I really do think I'll keep the R/T!!! Just some food for thought for those of you thinking about switching.
 
#2,570 ·
So now I went out and bought a 2010 SRT8 with only 700 miles on it. I've been switching back and forth between the two for the last week or two, and to be completely honest, I think I'm going to resale the SRT and keep the R/T!!! Not sure yet, I'm going to weight them both in the next few days. But after putting 500 miles on the SRT, I'm not sold at all, in fact like I said before, I really do think I'll keep the R/T!!! Just some food for thought for those of you thinking about switching.
You should start a separate thread to relate this comparison in detail. Should be interesting, to say the least.
 
#2,575 ·
First off, I've yet to see a metalurgy report on the steel used in the new narrower chain.And according to Luke earlier in this thread, all the hemi's with vvt have the same chain, that includes the 392 .There simply isn't enough room with the cam phaser hanging on the end of the cam , for a thicker more robust looking chain. Note I said more robust "looking " chain. There are a dozen or more different grades of steel, some with double the tensile strength of common carbon steel. I really would love to see a spec sheet on the thin chain before I start pointing fingers at Chrysler for cheaping out.
 
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#2,578 ·
Yes, that's the consensus. What causes the assembly to fall apart is still in the air and for now the suspicion is that abnormal vibration caused by the MDS operation is it - destructive resonance. We keep going off on tangents and wild goose chases. The fact that it's only the Challenger points to its specific tune.
 
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#2,585 ·
It's been 4 hours and no comments, I take it he was yankin my chain? No pun intended.


Sent from my iPhone using AutoGuide.com App

LOL......Maybe he wants to yank your chain.....LOL.

Anyways....I have not had the opportunity to see one of these 5.7 Hemi's apart yet so I can not comment on whether the 5.7 Hemi has a Keyed Crank Sprocket or not but it has been standard practice of all automotive manufactures to have a Keyed Crank Sprocket along with either a Key or Pin to locate the Sprocket on the Cam....this is what helps keep everything timed together.

If indeed the Crank Sprocket was a press fit timed at the time of fitting onto the crank and the press fit was wrong allowing the sprocket to eventually move then yes this could be a problem.

The problem with this theory they are trying to tell you is that numerous people have had this problem and all the shop has done is to rebuild or replace the Heads....add a new Chain Assembly and then the car is out the door. If the Crank Sprocket was not keyed and had moved....then the Car would not run correctly ever without replacing the Crankshaft.

I would be willing to bet that the Crankshaft is Keyed as I have never seen it done another way as the Crank Sprocket is considered a wear item and should be replaced everytime the Chain is replaced along the the Cam Sprocket.
 
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#2,586 ·
For all of you who love their car and want to keep it without breaking the bank (and timing chain) but are concerned about the TC breaking out of warranty (as I am), if you have a 2010 with less than 48K miles and still are under the powertrain warranty ( 5 years or 100K Miles) you/we can still get a lifetime warranty for about $1400 that will cover the powertrain. Although I have a 6 speed, I'm not convinced that only autos can have the problem with enough miles on the TC. Thoughts??
$1400 doesn't go far for car repairs these days.

I know that many hard core "modders" could care less about warranty coverage, and a few others won't take their cars to a dealership for repairs, but I believe that there's a good many folks, IMO, probably most owners, that don't want, nor can afford a major out of pocket repair expense, expecially if the car is financed.

I can see what you're thinking, and the 6 speeds "may" develope an issue with higher mileage. We just don't know, as most cars around here don't rack up the miles compared to most "normal" cars in life.

Yes, I know that there are a few reported 100k mile 6 speeds out there, but they are few.

Extended warranties are piece of mind for some, paying for a repair upfront for others, and just a gamble for others, but like I said, it doesn't take much to rack up a $1400 repair bill anymore.

I bought the Chrysler Lifetime Bumper to Bumper when I purchased my Challenger. At the time, I thought, if Chrysler can't make a good 5.7 by now, then they should go under again??? Well, didn't know about possible TC issues, and low and behold, for me, I feel that it was money well spent.

Don't want to use it, and don't want a TC failure, along with all the BS that comes with it, but after 100k it'll cost me only $100 "out of pocket" + all the headaches that come with the potential failure.

Something to think about.
 
#2,588 · (Edited)
I know this is a GM Motor.....but I think this will help clear up a lot of information for people on just how the MDS or Active Fuel Management as GM calls it and the VVT or Variable Valve Timing works. The sound does disappear for a while but keep watching as you are going to see some very interesting Dyno Video. I only hope that Chrysler Dynoed the Hemi's this way as well.

http://bcove.me/d53du7gr

I am not trying to promote GM here....I am just trying to help those that do not understand all that we have been discussing on this thread.
 
#2,590 ·
Some of the info came from All Par forum.AllparForums: 5.7L MY09 and up timing chain failures - Ram, big pickups, commercial trucks - Allpar, the Chrysler Car Community their werre 8 6.1 TC;s shown somewhere in that post. It was also pointed out that it was very possible that some of the 34 or 28 weekly demand could be for service and not necessarily an actual TC break.There are an estimated 1,000,000 5.7 and 6.4 engines with vvt that use the same chain.Any engine tear down could have ordered a timing chain just to make more money, regardless of the condition.Lots of people do have dealers rebuild their engines and since their was a tensioner upgrade,adding a TC to the parts list might even be required..I didn't get any info from the Challengerz site as There were many photos and I'm banned there, and cannot see the photos. Someone who has access ought to go there and see if anything of interest is shown. 187 posts is a lot especially since last year nothing showed for that site. I didn't even know Allpar had a forum til last night.
 
#2,591 ·
Ok, caught up to here again, as I have been gone for quite some time do to the Holidays.

And no, we didn't take the Challenger as I no longer have the confidence in it for road trips, so we took the Nitro.

I have the new parts in on the shelf now from Luke at Steve White, to change when I get in the mood. :D


I would like to make a few comments and observations from experience though, as some of the posts in the last three weeks are pretty funny. I don't want to come across as a know it all, but I have built probably at least 50 Mopar motors, all of the 57 to 73 vintage.

ROFL at the dude in the video, at least there was some useful video to look at, but the sound was not needed!
1) Carbon build up is normal. Do you know what happens in them cylinders? Explosions! Lots of them! Them spark plugs set off violence on a pretty regular basis, lots of times per minute, like the tachometer says! The by product is waste, and most of it goes out the exhaust, but not all of it.

2) The work bench area, and parts scattered: If you have ever cranked wrenches for a living or in a production environment like a dealership, this is reality.
You have to put the parts somewhere, and the mechanic in the stall next to you is probably not going to want you to stack the parts on his bench, as he just might need it.

Bottom line, the guy is trying to get the job done, and the parts have to go some place. It is what he does, and he can tell you exactly where every part is. They all get cleaned prior to reassembly.
It is not like your personal garage, that you can take the extra bed sheets when the wife isn't looking and wrap the parts in them, because it is YOUR pride and joy. :D It is a job to these guys, and they have to make a profit.

The reference to the low usage of the timing chains is pure crap in my opinion, numbers, as it should be almost none. I doubt there is more than 2 or 3 a month of "high mileage" 2009 up 5.7s getting rebuilt where a timing chain is needed under normal wear circumstances. I think these are almost all failures, and there should be none as it is not a normal failure item, never has been. Even the old crap single row chains with nylon gears would just slip a tooth, they didn't break.

Lastly, most of us agree this is an MDS issue, on mainly Challengers. I wonder how much the low viscosity 5w20 oil and the high operating temp contributes to the problem?

Have a single one of these failed engines had a 180 stat in them? I don't recall many of them admitting to any mods at all.

I have hated the 5w20 since I first saw it, and was always suspicious that it was used to help with gas mileage, as it reduces the amount of HP needed to turn the oil pump. Our 3.7 in our Nitro said to use it, and it clattered like heck when we got it. As soon as I changed the oil I put 5w30 in it and it got quiet and runs great.

So you have a plastic tensioner, trying to hold a toy chain tight, under tremendous stress/harmonics/back-load, operating at 212 oil temp, with oil barely thicker than water to lubricate it and keep it cool? Got it.

Oh, and in race car motors I have had a lot of valves slap the pistons without hurting the pistons or bending the rods. You just clean the sharp edges of the eyebrow up so they don't burn and move on.
The only time I ever bent a rod was when I hydrauliced an alcohol injected big block with a mechanical fuel injection, and I learned the expensive way you can't compress fluid.
 
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#2,592 ·
The 5w20 oil is the proper viscosity to operate the cam phaser which is the heart of the vvt system. Don't see heavier oil as a cause for TC failure, but it might very well produce decreased performanance.My son in law owns an engine rebuilding shop, has room for about eight vehicles plus a lift, large parts cleaner, an area set aside for his valve and head man.90% of the time time it is full to capacity.In front of each vehicle is a pile of parts.It still amazes me that the two employees who have been with him near twenty years, can remove an engine in a matter of a couple of hours and a week later put it back together,with nary a missing or leftover part.I call it controlled chaos.BTW he rebuilds almost all makes and models, with a few exceptions where the cost of parts make it impossible to make a profit.
 
#2,593 ·
as far as I have read here, all the VVT engines are using the same oil and timing chain / tensioner parts and some engine / car combos have MDS. This is why most are thinking it has to be a programming issue with the Challenger programming.
Also to address the timing chain usage, being the same parts are in multiple platforms, there are many of these platforms which have high mileage engines
Rams 300's Chargers, yes Challengers are probably the least driven year round
The failure rate is abnormal but again with all the high mileage engines with no problems it is not a cheap parts failure there is an underlying cause for the chain or tensioner to fail.
I really feel if it was a true parts failure the Ram's would have a very high failure rate
 
#2,595 ·
Oh fully concur, but I am offering that this very light weight oil, does not overcome the problem, as maybe a thicker oil would. Forever and a day, 20w oil was only used for break in, or extremely cold environments.

Now, a multi viscosity variant has to lubricate a HP engine, operating at much higher temps (emissions) with plastic parts operating at their failure threshold.

Does that make any sense?
 
#2,594 ·
same components in every 5.7L and 6.4L since 2009, whether it be a truck, suv or a car......

most state are now keeping police cars up to 150k due to budget issues, 2009 and 10 Chargers are certaintly approaching the 150 mark, since lifespan is about 3 years....lots of 8s and 9's being replaced by 12 and 13's

we are seeing city and counties keeping vehicles even longer

Luke
 
#2,600 · (Edited)
So you think the clearances are different, the parts and block castings are different in the SRT blocks etc. that use the 0-40? Do you think they used different rod bearings, cam bearings and main bearings? That would pretty much go against all the agendas of current manufacturing and trends exhibited by Chrysler over many years.

I doubt it very seriously, and remember reading some of this on one of the other Challenger forums but I am not going to go look it up. Maybe Luke can shed some light on it.

I personally don't think the 5w20 makes a darn bit of difference to the MDS system, but I do think that there is a mandate with most car manufacturers to meet the gas mileage requirements, and less drag on the oil pump helps with that. They are looking for mileage numbers average across the entire product line, and of course they would stipulate the lighter oil for a car already intended to get improved mileage, such as the MDS motor.

I am interested to learn about the "CEL" on the MDS engines running higher viscosity oil if you can provide a link as I hadn't heard of that nor do I even know what it means.

I know for a fact that one of the top mechanics at one of the very biggest performance Dodge dealers doesn't buy it either.
 
#2,603 ·
So you think the clearances are different, the parts and block castings are different in the SRT blocks etc. that use the 0-40? Do you think they used different rod bearings, cam bearings and main bearings? That would pretty much go against all the agendas of current manufacturing and trends exhibited by Chrysler over many years.

I doubt it very seriously, and remember reading some of this on one of the other Challenger forums but I am not going to go look it up. Maybe Luke can shed some light on it.

I personally don't think the 5w20 makes a darn bit of difference to the MDS system, but I do think that there is a mandate with most car manufacturers to meet the gas mileage requirements, and less drag on the oil pump helps with that. They are looking for mileage numbers average across the entire product line, and of course they would stipulate the lighter oil for a car already intended to get improved mileage, such as the MDS motor.

I am interested to learn about the "CEL" on the MDS engines running higher viscosity oil if you can provide a link as I hadn't heard of that nor do I even know what it means.

I know for a fact that one of the top mechanics at one of the very biggest performance Dodge dealers doesn't buy it either.
when the manufacturer recommends 5w20, you better be using 5w20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

these engines are being built to very tight tolerances in order to achieve fuel economy, emissions and performance, yes the engine will probably run fine on 5w30, but why are you trying to redesign the wheel, some engineer somewhere spent a lot of time figuring this out, dont mess with viscosity....

oil viscosity will affect engineering performance, to illustrate a point, on the new 3.6L v6 pentastar, using the wrong oil or cheap filter can and will cause cel, vibration, even possibly engine failures, the viscosity is extremely crucial because of the phasers, without the correct oil the phasers will not operate properly

orifices and passages are designed for the thinner oil, the oil pressure on a modern hemis specification is 25 to 110 psi, curb idle minimum 4 psi, now increase viscosity and you will loose oil pressure, hard to push a heavy oil

napa had to recall their 3.6l oil filters becasue they were too short causing fluctuation in oil pressure and cel to come on

the way you tighten the valve covers on those vehicle is crucial, you must replace the gaskets every time the covers are off, and so on....and so on

oil viscosity has nothing to do with any timing chain failures.....using the wrong viscosity may improve the chances of failures by causing starvation

definitelly can affect the operation of the mds system

not having seen this failure and from my experience racing cars for nearly 30 years, in my opinion this is an harmonic imbalance, probably aggravated by a poor design part or poor manufacturig of a component etc

if this was an oil issue it would be wide spread, and we are simply not seeing any failures!!!!

the other thought that one must consider, the Challenger is significantly more modded than any other Chrysler vehicle......a lot of catback exhaust for example will give a hated drone at hwy speed, caused by the mds activation or aggravating the the mds system.....food for thought.....not saying the cat back is causing failures,

also i believe the 5.7L has a great deal left in it, unlike the 5.0 Ford engine, a lot more can be squeezed out of the 5.7 or even 6.4 without much internal modification

Luke
 
#2,610 ·
yes, 5w20 definitelly is a product of cafe ratings, however the engines are being built with much tighter tolerance than past engines
the internals are the same for mds versus non mds, however the lifters are not the same!!!!!

Luke
Yeah Luke that is the same line they have been using, tighter tolerances. It just sounds great and makes a person feel all warm and fuzzy.

Can you show me a link or spec sheet that shows the clearances being tighter? I have been searching for a couple of hours on Google trying to prove this out and I can't seem to locate it.
 
#2,606 ·
Instead of plastic tensioners and wimpy chains would it of been so expensive to engineer a timing chain that didn't need tensioners and then put in a decent size chain? Is the motor configuration so different from small and big block motors of the past?

Did the 340,383,440,426 motors of the past have plastic tensioners like this? I know the chains were thicker/stronger. I mean, skimp else where folks but not here.
 
#2,614 ·
The old engines (B/RB date back to '58, the LA is from '64...lots of changes in technology/machining tolerances).

The old B/RB, LA engines didn't have variable cam timing and those old sets were press-fit.

The later engines had nylon teeth tips on the cam sprockets - they'd
wear/break off and the chains would jump...had to replace a chain back then.

If you look at the front layout of the '03+ 5.7 engines vs. the old ones, there's not much in common. The new gen engine doesn't have anything in the mechanicals that interchange, it was a 'new sheet of paper'.

On another point - the 5W20 oil. For cold weather, you want the proper viscosity recommended by the manufacturer.

Cold startups and flow rates, especially to the top of the engine (valve train) and upper cylinder walls are greatly affected by the weight of the oil (along with tighter clearances in today's engines).

Oil that is too thick will not flow as readily in cold conditions, cold-start up and can accelerate wear in areas that are at the end of the oiling system.

The SRT engines (6.1 and 6.4) also have oil jets (squirters) that are aimed at the underside of the pistons to assist in keeping the internals cooled down, in light of the anticipated use and demands of the SRT owner.

The higher weight oil spec'd by Chrysler for SRT applications may factor in the higher heat exposure with the SRT engine design as an additional measure for durability.

(those jets are a M-B design that's been on their engines for years).
 
#2,607 ·
Hemi Ed, it appears that when people don't agree with "your concepts" on oil, that you come back with "Did you read it" and "Is it that hard"............but's that's OK, just carry on.

Why are you afraid to drive your Challenger on trips. Just put in the heavier oil that you say will work and carry on. "Is is that hard" LOL
 
#2,609 ·
Now who is being condescending?

I have thought this through a lot, in a normal trouble shooting manner at which I have made a pretty good living. What is different? What is the same? Of course, like anyone my age, I have my biases.

If you don't understand or agree, good for you, as I have tried hard to have a discussion and explain my thoughts. It is just a message board, take it or leave it.

As far as taking trips in my Challenger, it has a lifetime warranty, and I don't want to give them an out if I should have a problem. I am not traveling in it until I have time to open it up and put the new Timing Chain and Tensioner in it, or Chrysler steps up to the plate to win my confidence back.

I don't want someone opening it up in a town out on the road that is not of my choosing. I don't want to get stranded and have to deal with the inconvenience to myself, my wife and our two dogs. We have two other late model Mopars to choose from, one has a 3.7 and the other has a 4.7. We take a lot of road trips and have been just using them.
 
#2,608 ·
you are comparing apples to oranges
1) Ram vs Challenger
2) MDS vs non MDS
I wonder how many of these failures were self inflicted, running the wrong oil, mods, abuse???
I am sure they would admit to it and pay the bill out of pocket.........
not like anyone on here condones warranty fraud........
 
#2,611 ·
oil passages are unknown old or new, but what im referring too, is the orifice openings to lifters, oil pumps, phasers, oil relief holes in rods to lubricate bearings, etc

bearing clearance i think are very close, if you compare a mid 70's 360, from memory, crank bearing clearance is almost the same

360 .0015 to .0022 ( from memory)
5.7L .0009 to .002 ( look it up on dealerconnect)

somebody needs to open a book, i have nothing at work to give me the old spec's

Luke
 
#2,613 ·
I'm a gun guy before a car guy and all I have to contribute on the subject of lubrication, although I realize that temps, stresses, and contamination issues are not the same, is that modern guns built to tighter tolerances also run on thinner oils, often synthetic. Some guys insist on greasing the slide rails and they only gunk up and jam the guns. Of course there's no mpg involved in that case, and manufacturers do this because they can (more precise machining thanks to computers) and to increase accuracy and longevity.

No, if oil was the culprit the Chargers would be in trouble. They see a lot of miles and are run hard and modded too (it's a bad boy's car, not really a family sedan, and it sees police use). They could be lying (all?!), of course, but the majority of Challenger owners whose chains broke stated no mods, no abuse, and lots of highway cruising during which the failures occurred, by the way. So I don't think it's fair to blame the victims.

I don't believe that the chain and tensioner are bulletproof, and am not naive enough to think that manufacturers necessarily recommend the best lubes, but if only the Challengers fail it would follow that the cause is Challenger-specific. That's why we ended up pointing at the MDS programming and harmonics in this particular vehicle regardless of other potential weaknesses also found in the rest of the line-up.
 
#2,617 ·
Main Bearing Journal Diameter
64.988 - 65.012 mm
2.5585 - 2.5595 in.
Bearing Clearance
0.023 - 0.051 mm
0.0009 - 0.002 in.
Out of Round (MAX)
0.005 mm
0.0002 in.
Taper (MAX)
0.003 mm
0.0001 in.
End Play
0.052 - 0.282 mm
0.002 - 0.011 in.
End Play (MAX)
0.282 mm
0.0111 in.
Connecting Rod Journal Diameter
53.992 - 54.008 mm
2.126 in.
Bearing Clearance
0.020 - 0.060 mm
0.0007 - 0.0023 in.
Out of Round (MAX)
0.005 mm
0.0002 in.
Taper (MAX)
0.003 mm
0.0001 in.


cannot link anything to dealerconnect
Luke
 
#2,618 ·
Thanks Luke, that is what I spent hours trying to find. The mins on the tolerances are definatley tighter and the high on the tolerances are just under what the old motors were. So that is clear proof, they are tighter and that is what I was looking for instead of just someone saying they were tighter.
If a guy loosened them up like we used to do the race motors things things would probably really fly.

So these are the numbers for all the 5.7s or do they also include other 3G Hemis?
 
#2,619 · (Edited)
Here's another one just posted on another forum (quoted, copied and pasted from there):


"Just lost the chain on my 2010 R/T @ 84,000.
While this was covered under warranty, I'm now concerned about the next time.
Kinda' sad as I really enjoy my car, but I need to know I'm not going to have a $4000+ surprise in my future."


Yes, it's an auto.
 
#2,634 ·
I have been tracking timing chain failures across many forums since i created this thread. For the purpose of this particular thread, failures not reported on this forum are not included in the list on page 1. Not cool linking to competitor websites. But I always laugh when people look at the list and assume that those are the only reports, as if the world of timing chain failures start and stop at the door of ChallengerTalk.
 
#2,621 · (Edited)
First time poster

;) Hi everyone: glad to be here along with many passionate people like myself, and I'm willing to contribute what I have researched about our Dodge Challengers!!

I happen to own A 2012 Challenger R/t Auto which i bought in October 2011...I have been reading many posts in this forum for the past 3 months and never got around posting...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to ask Outflyin, if this person has used the MDS in all his highway driving on this 84,000k car,
and also the weight of oil he has been using?

only reason why i ask on weight of the oil is because I know for A fact 5-20 is only used for cafe requirements and also for the MDS to work properly....

Since i been reading this forum which was about 3 months ago i have been using the paddles religiously, and have been using 5-30, since my first Oil change at 1,200... 5-30 is far better then 5-20, which becomes like water at temps above 190!! 5-30 starts to thin out about at temps at 230 which is good for these Hemi's.... Hemi's temps runs approximately around 212-225 with stock thermostats!!!! like I says i been reading for sometime, and we all came to conclusion that the MDS is the cause of our timing chains and not the Oil.... reasons I ask about the Oil is because he happens to have 84,000k,which many Autos that had broken timing chains went about 30k or so...
 
#2,623 ·
Not sure if I qualify for the "broken timing chain" issue just yet, but my 2010 Challenger R/T just died on me today at 40k miles while going 80mph on the freeway. No signs of issues it just completely died while in the middle of driving, no check engine light or anything. Had a half tank of gas so that wasn't the issue, but my car was towed to Firestone and they couldn't ID the problem either.

It's currently being towed to the dealership now, but I also had another issue, while trying to restart my car, a loud pop happened and smoke came out of my intake? I'm already bracing for how bad this will be to my wallet...
 
#2,624 · (Edited)
Lets say Kurtronic makes the 34th forum member to experience a broken timing chain. That would be 34 out of 29,277 members giving us a rate of 0.116%. I'd count all members assuming that if they had a failure they'd search the forums for any info and come across this thread. But, for arguments sake lets say that half of the members weren't active and double the number of failures, that'd give us a rate of 68/14639= 0.465%. As catastrophic as this failure is, it seems pretty rare.
 
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