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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2013, 08:51 PM
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My buddy has a 12 Gt 5.0 completely stock with the exception of ATAK borla exhaust and he just dyno'd at 390 at sin city performance...That really aint shiz. It also doesn't sound as good as a hemi does it sounds like the old HP 289's from back in the day once its cracked open. Hemi def sounds more beef.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RTkid View Post
My buddy has a 12 Gt 5.0 completely stock with the exception of ATAK borla exhaust and he just dyno'd at 390 at sin city performance...That really aint shiz. It also doesn't sound as good as a hemi does it sounds like the old HP 289's from back in the day once its cracked open. Hemi def sounds more beef.
go dyno your RT - you'll be lucky to see 350.......
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by randycat99 View Post
So you have to agree my point was completely correct as worded. The 5.7 is a stronger engine than the 5.0 as far as daily driving scenarios. It has more output, hence it is stronger. It just doesn't have the higher pk hp rating. So far, nothing incorrect, eh?
since you're talking about actual driving scenarios, then again, you've been wrong for the last 10 posts.....

we're both losers because we're arguing about how strong a car is during daily driving conditions under the curve....

BUT, the 5.7 is not as strong pulling a boat as the 5.0 is while pulling a jet ski......

the "50ftlbs" advantage that the 5.7 HEMI has does not negate the 500lbs that it's giving up to the 5.0......


...........and once the 5.7 gets passed 4500rpms, it falls flat on it's face because it peaked faster than a 15 year old boy for the first time with his girlfriend......
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:36 AM
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Well fellas while I have to agree with Litos in the respect that the Ford 5.0 is a beast of an over achiever, I still love my 5.7 powered Challenger more than any Mustang I've owned. I also have to agree with Randycat that as a daily driver, the Challenger is a phenominal car and the motor does just fine. The complete package of looks, performance, and ride quality have hit all the right marks for me.

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Old 01-28-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Litos View Post
and this is why no one has taken you seriously - not in your last thread and not even in this one.
Actually, I do and did then. Not that I think you're wrong because I haven't driven the GT and I'm just going on hearsay when it comes to that car. But all the points that Randy makes and the way he analyzes torque curves completely make sense to me. I also think that too many people have a very narrow way of judging cars, as he keeps saying. The track and dyno results are one thing, but the fighter who punches the hardest doesn't always win, and I'm not talking about luck or cheating. There are so many other variables. Weight is a disadvantage in more ways than one, but that gets overplayed, and it's precisely because people are fixated on things that matter in racing, and then only in specific applications.

Also, in a comparison between engines all of a sudden transmissions, gearings, and even total weights are entering the picture, which makes the argument sound like it's more about being right than anything else. Everybody (posters and readers) ends up losing in those, as you said.

When it comes to cars (and many other things) I try to either compare apples and apples and not to worry too much about what the other guy is doing. That's why, to go back to the OP, the fact that a truck makes more HP than a sporty car doesn't faze me. The fact that a much lighter car with better gearing performs well doesn't bug me either. Different purposes and ways to skin the cat.

I'm in the Randy camp when he talks about normal driving too. Cars can't be taken to the limit (too much) then. So what matters is what happens down low - the top end is rarely useful there. 5,500 rpm is pretty high in the city - cops may be more lax where you are, I dunno. And getting out of the hole the fastest only really matters if you street race. It very well could be that the GT gets around better than an R/T in the city, and that the latter is better for long trips and the highways. It's not quite what I hear (people usually state that they have to keep on it with the GT), but I'll buy that and it doesn't bother me; the principle that bigger, more torquey engines are more appropriate than peppy little ones for that use still applies. Torque contributes greatly to the pleasure of driving in so many day-to-day situations. Now is the 5.7 Hemi a torque monster? Hell no, unfortunately, and even Randy recognizes it when he's not too busy fencing with you.

I'd personally want a better gearing in that R/T, not for the 0-60, not to compare it to a GT, but to make the most of what it has to give. Now I'll butt out before someone thinks an intervention is needed again.

Last edited by USRWDV8; 01-28-2013 at 10:44 AM. Reason: The job kept interrupting and messing up my post
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by USRWDV8 View Post
Actually, I do and did then. Not that I think you're wrong because I haven't driven the GT and I'm just going on hearsay when it comes to that car. But all the points that Randy makes and the way he analyzes torque curves completely make sense to me. I also think that too many people have a very narrow way of judging cars, as he keeps saying. The track and dyno results are one thing, but the fighter who punches the hardest doesn't always win, and I'm not talking about luck or cheating. There are so many other variables. Weight is a disadvantage in more ways than one, but that gets overplayed, and it's precisely because people are fixated on things that matter in racing, and then only in specific applications.

Also, in a comparison between engines all of a sudden transmissions, gearings, and even total weights are entering the picture, which makes the argument sound like it's more about being right than anything else. Everybody (posters and readers) ends up losing in those, as you said.

When it comes to cars (and many other things) I try to either compare apples and apples and not to worry too much about what the other guy is doing. That's why, to go back to the OP, the fact that a truck makes more HP than a sporty car doesn't faze me. The fact that a much lighter car with better gearing performs well doesn't bug me either. Different purposes and ways to skin the cat.

I'm in the Randy camp when he talks about normal driving too. Cars can't be taken to the limit (too much) then. So what matters is what happens down low - the top end is rarely useful there. 5,500 rpm is pretty high in the city - cops may be more lax where you are, I dunno. And getting out of the hole the fastest only really matters if you street race. It very well could be that the GT gets around better than an R/T in the city, and that the latter is better for long trips and the highways. It's not quite what I hear (people usually state that they have to keep on it with the GT), but I'll buy that and it doesn't bother me; the principle that bigger, more torquey engines are more appropriate than peppy little ones for that use still applies. Torque contributes greatly to the pleasure of driving in so many day-to-day situations. Now is the 5.7 Hemi a torque monster? Hell no, unfortunately, and even Randy recognizes it when he's not too busy fencing with you.

I'd personally want a better gearing in that R/T, not for the 0-60, not to compare it to a GT, but to make the most of what it has to give. Now I'll butt out before someone thinks an intervention is needed again.
if the idea is to just compare engines, then yes, the 5.7 makes more torque down low than the 5.0 - i have already admitted that.

but when you take the 5.7 and toss it into a car that weighs so much, it's not nearly as effective in low rpms as the 5.0 that gets dropped into a much lighter pony car....

daily driving torque under the curve is relartive to the kind of cars you are comparing - and that means factoring in tq numbers, graphs and weight of vehicle.

i'd gladly give up 50ftlbs on my 392 if you told me that the trade-off would be that the car would be 500lbs lighter....

that essentially would be a 3600lb 6.1 HEMI <--- people would kill to have something like that
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:02 PM
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No argument from me there. It came up during Randy's thread on grunt: proper gearing or weight loss are factors, no doubt.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:05 PM
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That is part of the irony to it all...the Hemi may not be a low end torque monster in its own right, but the curve shape of the 5.0 ends up making the Hemi look like one, by comparison. If it weren't for the gearing in the Mustang, a lot of people would certainly be wondering where's the beef when it comes to the 5.0 on the low end. That really bugs, Litos for some reason. At 420 hp, the Coyote suggests to be an all-powerful engine, compared to a mere 370 hp Hemi, but there really are some caveats to that 420 hp. That just doesn't compute to those who only look at pk hp rating, because noted earlier, they are only grasping a subset of the full information in effect.
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Last edited by randycat99; 01-28-2013 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:23 PM
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Randy, stop focusing on the wrong numbers...after reading your posts you have some of the worst tunnel vision I have ever seen...

The number you should be concerned about is 4000lbs versus 3500lbs...

When you align those 2 numbers to the power curve of each engine, you'll see why the Challenger is less capable...

A strong power curve and +50ftlbs down low gets tossed agressively out of the window when you find out the other car is lighter by a Rosie Odonnel and an Andre the Giant...
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:51 PM
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4,082 lb R/T - 3,602 lb GT (Motor Trend) = 480 lbs

280-300 lb Rosie O'Donnell's + 240 lb Andre The Giant (wiki answers & wikipedia) = 520-540 lbs

Close enough, Litos, but I know how you like precision. Considerable difference, like 4 normal chicks in the car, regardless.
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