Lets take another example, the G package is like $2300 or something and you get a too small rim and tire... err forget but it ain't much, same suspension, etc. The $1500 Camaro RS you get cool hids, massive staggered rims, stripes, badges, and suspension! Gee why does Dodge not have a V6 T/A package setup like the RS????? now that would sell! But nope, for 50% bucks more the S/E gets a g package which is a joke.
Average person cares about he price difference, but not necessarily all the features. If the S/E had bigger than 18" rims with the Rallye I wouldn't have bought it. 20" Bling rims are not appealing to me. I also hate HIDs, and the Rallye has striping, so for me a Challenger was the better deal. Value vs cost.
I think many people get caught up in thinking that what they want is what sells cars. It may be what sells cars to them, but it could hurt selling a car to another person. The V6 Camaro could be 500 HP and the Challenger V6 could be 200hp and 10 grand more. I'd still go Challenger every time. I didn't purchase this car with performance or cost in mind. I bought the awesome retro car I wanted.
You can't please everyone all at once. More options on all the cars would go towards appeasing more of the masses at once, however that would have a much larger cost in production and with the current financial state of things they probably can't afford it. Their choice with the Challenger would be direct it at either the niche loyal customers or trying and hit the mass market like they did with the charger. They seem to have chosen niche, which I think should be seen as a very positive move. They could have made it much crappier, and plastic, dropped the price by several thousand and sold many more of them... but instead they gave us all our dream car.
Deep Water Blue Challenger R/T Six Speed.
Mods: 18" Rallye Rims, K&N air filter, Mopar Short Throw shifter,Custom Flowmaster Exhaust, Aeroforce gauge in Vent Gauge pod
Audio: Added 3-1/2" Boston Acoustic Dash speakers, converting from 4 speaker to 6, Parrot Asteroid (Android powered) Single Din Headunit. Swapped in Kenwood speakers in rear deck lid.
My new Car Website: http://ChallengerAccepted.com
I agree with oldman, as an SE owner, the car is almost complete. I get so many looks right now. People have no clue what my car can or cannot do, and I don't need to drive like an ass to prove my car to them. My SE was pretty plain when I got it, I added some stripes and window tint and it's got the look. As soon as I find some 20" chrome clads I'll be right there with the big boys.
I agree you will have one nice looking ride and one to be proud of. It will get a lot of attention as any of the Chally's do. This reminds though of a beautiful women I dated. She was long and lean and was any mans dream. I did get a lot of attention when I was with her and many of my friends were jealous, but she just could not perform as she looked when needed. I did have a lot fun with here though.
The thing is that even with only 210 HP, the mustang is still faster than the 250hp Challenger.
Yep and I would bet that even if it was slower it would have minimal affect on Mustang V6 sales as the ladies really don't care if their iron 2 V V6 is faster or slower than the Challenger, all they know is it goes, and it goes better than their last 4 banger Camry. Why is that? Cause IMO the average V6 Mustang buyer does NOT care what is under the hood as long as it is a little stronger than a hampster.
Oh as an aside, do you really think a 210 HP Mustang is faster than a 250 Challenger that has much better HP / weight? IMO the test Challenger was on whale squeeze fuel and has a whole lot of timing yanked out by the ECU and whale squeeze clearly affects a 4 v engine more than a 2V farm tractor engine.
Despite a deficiency of 1.4 lb/hp (16.2 to Challenger's 14.8), the 'Stang gets the jump on the Challenger, with a slight lead until 60 mph, when they're even up at 7.3 sec. But the extra gear ratios continue to pay off as the Ford crosses the finish line three-tenths and 1.4 mph ahead of the Dodge's 15.6 sec at 90.3 mph.
So even if the above was true and it is all gear, the 5 speed Challenger should gain back the .3 in the 1/4 mile. If I say is true there should be 3.5 liter LX cars spanking 4.0 farm tractor cars. Dunno as I NEVER see any v6 Mustangs at the track or on the street. I do no via my own G-Tech that my car bone stock on 87 fuel does about a 15.6 in the 1/4 just as it says above, but that is on 87 fuel with 10% Ethenol = whale squeeze. Gut feeling this is like watching paint dry...
Originally Posted by Justinec101
What's another 90hp going to mean for them?
I would assume NOTHING, as if they wanted the extra HP and the 6 speed, they could head over to Chevy right now and get it. It is not like V6 Mustang sales went to ZERO when the V6 Camaro came out with 305 HP and a 6 speed.
IMO the 90 HP 6 speed Mustang opens up a whole new market one with mainly young man who toss around a RX-8, a Genisis Coupe, V6 Camaro and say um dunno maybe a WRX.
Originally Posted by Justinec101
The mustang sells like crazy because it offers a lot of bang for your buck. It's only 210 hp, but it's lighter and cheaper than the competition.
Mustang with auto $22,840
Challenger with auto $23,460
Yep lighter and cheaper, but it also has a long long long production history with a huge following of female drivers, heck most people don't even know what a Challenger is So one again IMO, the Mustang sells because A) Ford is a better and private company B) more people grew up loving Mustangs C) it is slightly cheaper and has a manual
Originally Posted by Justinec101
Now that the camaro is out there, upping the ante, Mustang has to improve so that it can still be the best deal. The challenger is just kind of sitting around in limbo. It just doesn't offer the best power/weight/cost ratio, which is the definition of what muscle cars are supposed to be. If you like the looks of the challenger enough, or the suspension of the challenger enough, or the extra room of the challenger enough, to justify your purchase that's great. But I don't think there are enough people who think that way to keep this car successful as it is. Sales of the Challenger compared to its competition should be evidence enough.
Agree, and adding 30 Hp to the V6 is not going to help in the power/weight/cost vs +95 HP for the Mustang is it? The Challenger is what it is and guys did not roll the V6 to go racing, they got it for looks, ride, style etc and that can be fixed by offering a T/A package the same way the RS is offered in the Camaro. Looks + rims + suspension + bolt on body parts = WINNER. The Challenger offers the g and the Rallye, I like the Rallye, the g is a hopeless package.
A T/A would have (stolen right from Chevy): RS Package Available to be added to Either SS or LT trim levels
- HID lamps
- Spoiler on LT Model
- 20 inch 5 spoke wheel
- Midnight silver paint finish
- Optional polished finish
- RS unique tail lamps (darkened lenses)
- Body colored roof ditch molding
- Special RS Badging
I think that when the "refresh" of the challenger comes they need to either do the 3.6 direct injected V6 or the 4.0l Phoenix engine for the SE. Rebadge the SRT as the RT and keep price the same as R/T to compete with current/future model SS camaro and GT mustang and completly redo the SRT with either a 6.4l 7.0l or a 8.3L or some hemi based forged/boosted engine. Also Drop weight across the board by 100-200lbs. That will help with performance across the board with competing models keep the size the same and help fuel economy a bit. Neither car will touch the looks of the Challenger unless they change the Challengers looks. I think the SE, R/T and 8.3l SRT versions would not cost Chrysler to much to do and would bump up sales alot.
Well, many people purchased the V-6 Mustang because they couldn't afford the V-8 powered GT and didn't like the lower gas mileage. Which, is not to say that many V-6 Owners didn't want more power. Just that they had only two options. The higher priced and gas hungy GT. (with higher Insurance too!) or the somewhat less exciting V-6 Model.
Now with the new 2011 Model you can have both........That is much of the power of the V-8. Yet, with a smaller price and better gas mileage. (much better)
Personally, it looks like the Challenger is doomed. As it will likely just be a limited edition V-8 Muscle Car. Never getting the widespread success of the Camaro or Mustang.
In short the Challenger is NEVER going to compete on cost or performance, it is a larger GT type car, with an expensive and complicate IRS. It competes in looks and ride, and to a lesser extent price (on Camaro only). Heck IMO a DOHC all aluminum V6 probably cost more than the 5.7 "hemi" so why not just drop the S/E and make an aluminum block 5.4 "hemi" at 350 HP?
oldman, for once we are of like mind on a subject! A smaller, de-rated, lo-tech (cheaper) v8 dropped into an SE at a tracking price to the competitors' v6 models would shake up the paradigm a bit. Instead of playing into the "hp war" on the low end on ever more complex v6 designs, it could introduce the "torque wildcard" w a sleeper v8 design. If the other guys want to play with 305 hp v6's, then Challenger will bring a torquer "305 hp" v8 to play with them.
Imagine it putting all the magazine reviewers on edge on what to expect? It's all matched up on base price and hp, so they should have no complaints, eh? I envision scaling down the hemi even further than just a displacement decrease to 5.4 L. You can ease back on all kinds of stuff across the board (valve lift, workhorse style cam instead of racehorse, lower redline, displacement down to 5.0 L?, but keep 10.5 CR, maybe even push it to 10.75 when DI is ready to deploy?) to tame 370 hp down to 305 hp...resulting in slightly cheaper hardware all around? While the others only benefit from a fleeting torque peak at 270-ish ft-lbs on their v6's, the sleeper v8 will deliver a broad, FAT 320 ft-lbs across the powerband with a nice low rpm lurch that the other v6's could never muster. Combine that with the best fuel economy techniques available, and I imagine mpg could get quite comparable, as well.
For once, the premise could be presented that if there is no consequence to the v8 that delivers what a v6 delivers, why not have a v8? Tracking later v6 performance increases should be fairly simple and guaranteed, just by letting out the "inherent" v8 in steps, as needed.
Naturally, the SRT8 model should still pursue the best 6.4 L performance that is out there, just for flagship points. The RT is probably right about where it should be with the mds 5.7.
I do tend to agree that if the model that dominates sales is to be the SE, then that is the model that you want to focus on making it more attractive (in features) while adhering to a low price point.
It's not that I really needed 370 hp...but having 150+ hp riding shotgun at a moment's bidding w/o a 6000 rpm moonshot is what makes me feel like I'm in the right car for me. The roar of a v8 seals the deal!
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Last edited by randycat99; 12-02-2009 at 10:28 PM.
A 5.4 "hemi" would be a short stroke, low deck version with aluminum block. It would NOT have a Y block either. A basic 4 bolt V8 block at 300 HP to 350 HP would be very small think of a 5.0 Ford short block. IMO, it maybe as light at the current 3.5 SOHC, which is a Y block and has HUGE heads. Make it a T/A.
I would speculate Ford's nev v6 will add $1000 to $1500 to the base cost.
I would certainly like to see it come to fruition. I still think 350 hp may be letting the cat outta the bag a bit early. Start out at a really tame 305 hp, and then you got plenty of room to let it out in later updates, as "marketing needs" dictate.
Remember, it's not so much beating the competitors hp in the SE segment, rather just not having the lowest figure. The "twist" is that Dodge's "305 hp" will be loaded with FAT torque. I'm guessing people will wonder how the same hp can run and feel and sound so much better in the Challenger, and they will naturally have to discover that torque and teh 8-banger has its place in the big picture, as well.
I have to say this low buck V-8 Option (5.4L) could be the right answer? As I said before Chrysler has to come up with a counter. Yet, with the weight issue. A comparable V-6 is not likely to be the answer.
Its also worth noting the 5.4L could be mated to the new 8-Speed Auto or 6-Speed Manual. That combined with MDS could provide similar Gas Mileage.
In short we could see a base Challenger with a 3.6L, a Rallye Pkg. with a Hemi Option (5.4L?), the Standard R/T, and finally the SRT.
Of course the "BIG QUESTION". Will Chrysler build it.....
Great Plan..........Yet, I don't think the odds are so good?
The worst problem that our cars have is of the mass media type.This car doesnt sell more because people dont know it exists.In my area I constantly see newspaper and tv adds about the camaro and mustang,but none....none at all about challenger. People comment to me on the street that it reminds them of a mustang and camaro but don't recognize it. Then I go into the story of the car and they find it fascinating. I probably have sold maybe a couple.lol. Chrysler needs to start appealing to the mass media soon and by seeling more they could develop more projects for it,or it may be doomed .That would be a shame. Another thing ,it could use a rear challenger badge to identify it,like on the classic car.
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