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No respect

6K views 46 replies 31 participants last post by  leo2hot4tv 
#1 ·
Attended a classic Mustang club meeting (I used own a restored 66 fastback). Anyway, a high level sales manger from one the country's largest Ford dealerships gave the group a preview of what Ford is developing for the next several years.

Coming soon: the Shelby GT500 - a 750 to 800 horsepower ball-breaker with extraordinary sports car handling. He compared the Mustangs to Camaros, and stressed Ford's high retention rate of value (especially the Shelby GT350 which he believes will be a sure-bet collectors car because of its limited number and short run (next year it will be replaced by the GT500). I asked why he didn't mention Challengers. He matter-of-factly explained that the demand isn't there as evidenced by the HC and SPs already being discounted on the retail market. (Not the case with the GT350) He added that most auto buffs view the Challenger as too big, too heavy, no traction... and with the forthcoming horsepower competition, not unique enough to be a hot collector's car. I so DISAGREE!! Although, it is true, with the ZL1 and GT500 our cars are no longer the only bad boys on the block. No matter, I would never go to the Chevy or Ford dark side. They seem cheap and plastic.
 
#3 · (Edited)
. He matter-of-factly explained that the demand isn't there as evidenced by the HC and SPs already being discounted on the retail market. (Not the case with the GT350) He added that most auto buffs view the Challenger as too big, too heavy, no traction... and with the forthcoming horsepower competition, not unique enough to be a hot collector's car.
Now that the dealers are NOT over pricing the Hellcat, it is finally able to fulfill FCA's prophecy. A hammer from the gods, sent to the working man, to smash the elite. A street /strip power cruiser, street bruiser, grand touring, Muscle car. Show me another car THE SAME WEIGHT AND SIZE that is faster around the track!

As to the SP's being discounted, did you ask him how many Mustang GT's have been discounted??............I'll bet MOST of them!

Who is "most auto buffs"?? Is it the handfull of guys who actually track their cars?? Is it the street/strip driven performance group?? Is it the collector?? Is it the family guy using the car as a daily driver?? Or is it just the countless teenagers who read "Car and Driver" and "Motor trend", that don't even have a license , let alone a car??
 
#15 ·
Who is "most auto buffs"??
It's called an "imaginary coalition." It's like saying "A lot of people around here think..." or "Some folks have said..." He really hasn't got any idea who "most auto buffs" are or what they think. He's doing what salespeople do: Using anecdotal evidence to sell cars.

He is a Ford rep. He said precisely what you would expect anyone working for a specific brand to say.
I wouldn't even give him that much credit. To me, "Ford Reps" are guys whos paycheck says Ford Motor Company on it (as opposed to "Auto Nation" or "Bob's Ford Dealer"). Sales managers are little more than the next level of clueless (sales people being the first level). Weeks or months before, this same genius could have been telling people how great the latest Buick Enclave is. If someone from Ford Performance is talking, I'm inclined to take him seriously. Some sales manager? Not so much.

By referencing the Camaro for comparisons, he's picking a fight he can win. No more explanation really needed.
Exactly.

And one more thing: Lets not get started with the whole "These cars will be collectibles" fairy tale. None of these cars will be collectibles (at least not in our lifetime). Remember the first gen Corvette ZR-1? They made about 2500 of them total and idiots were buying them off the showroom floor for 100,000 early 1990's dollars ($60,000 MSRP with a $40,000 markup) and storing them in the expectations of huge profits. You can pick up a nice one all day every day for around $30K or less.
 
#5 ·
Next time you are at one of these meetings ask him how many kids can fit in the back of a new Camaro or Mustang? You might also want to ask him when Ford plans on releasing a 4 door RWD car with a V8? As far as collectability, anything Shelby is collectible except maybe the 80's FWD Shelby Chargers (even they will probably be collectible at some point). Collectability is one thing, but mass sale numbers are another. Would you rather sale 10000 $70K Hellcats or 2500 $70K Mustangs? typical one side conversation. I can appreciate the Mustang and Camaro for what they are. I would have considered wither one from a performance standpoint. Realistically, deciding factor was I could sit comfortably in the Challenger and see out of it. Also, My 9 year old can still set in the back. I guess if you are a collector and don't drive them. then that's not important.
 
#7 ·
He is a Ford rep. He said precisely what you would expect anyone working for a specific brand to say. No need to get worked up over this because if you look around the market, the real story is out there; not the narrow self serving view you heard.

I'm perfectly happy riding around in the closest representation to the original 70s classic than any other manufacturer on Earth (for now). :)
 
#8 ·
Being a previous Mustang owner I'm not going to say anything negative about them. I actually Love them for what they are. I went to the Challenger simply because it was more retro looking and most importantly the size! I love the fact that I can have adults in the back seat (providing their not 6' tall ;-), trunk full of luggage, my mountain or rode bike on my hitch in style, comfort and the sound of my exhaust when riding the Blue Ridge Parkway in NC or any other rode. Something that I was never ever able to do in a Mustang!
 

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#9 ·
i live in both worlds, with show car being a ford sho. to be honest ford guys are usually brainwashed. don't get me wrong ford is a very smart company. where dodge gives you almost the full hp the car will go from the factory. ford on the ecoboost does not. so if you want what the car really has got you get it tuned & bang there goes your warranty. smart business yes but not for the performance minded people like most of us. the other factor most of you youngster don't really value, is that us old timers love getting in & out of a challenger, not so a camaro or pony. the other factor is residual value. i'm think very hard about upgrading to a sp shaker after the 1st & all i have to do is mention i'm thinking about selling it & people i know in the market eyes light up & will be able to get north of 20k for my '09.
 
#10 ·
the other factor most of you youngster don't really value, is that us old timers love getting in & out of a challenger, not so a camaro or pony.
I have messed up knees, so I definitely know. With a small car, I'm grabbing the roof, trying not to hang on the door and going, "Huuuurk, arg!" when I get out. With the challenger it's no problem.

On another note I was a little worried having to clutch would bother my knees, but it actually seems to help. It was worse when I had an auto and had my left leg sitting still for long periods. The clutch works it out a bit.
 
#11 ·
That sales manager wasn't wrong. The Challenger IS a bigger, heavier car. It really DOESN'T compete with the Mustang and Camaro because of the size and seating difference.

Would you compare a Charger to a Ford Focus 4-door? No. So why compare a Challenger to a Mustang? The only reason is because they're American 2-door V8s with a long history of being rivals.

Ignoring their history and removing brands, badges, and prices, then tossing them out with all the other cars on the market with similar features and sizes...the Challenger would compete with entirely different vehicles than the Mustang.

There's no reason to be upset about what the Ford guy said. It's true. Who cares. Own what the Challenger is.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I have to agree. The Challenger is a GT cruiser and really is on a different plane that the other two. Having my Challenger on an actual road course with the other two in tow I can attest that the Challenger struggles with every single one of those factors. It IS heavy, it DOES have traction problems, and it DOES NOT handle as well as the other two. For good reason too, it is NOT a sports car. Now that is not saying the Challenger can't be competitive in the right hands with handling mods and weight reduction. That much is true. Out of the box, however, the Challenger is not the awe inspiring lap turner that many would like to believe. It is fun though no matter what.

I'm afraid I have to agree.

Same for the 1992 Viper R/T 10. People were paying close to double sticker for them for when they were new, now they go in the mid $20k range.

The most insane value increases from the muscle car era took a lifetime to happen, too. Yes, '71 Barracudas go for over a hundred grand now, but they were still cheap when they were 25 years old, and you can restore them with very basic fabrication skills.

Where are people going to get the broken plastic parts and new computer modules when a 2009 Challenger is 25 years old in 2034?
I came to this conclusion as well. Look at many vehicles from early to mid 2000's and try to see what it would take to get those back in great shape. Many of them you can't even find parts for anymore. Not to mention brittle plastic parts and different modules that cost $300 to repair. Everything from drive by wire to anti-lock brakes and Body Control Units. The reason the older cars were more valuable and easier to restore was because of their simplicity. Lights don't work? Replace the switch and run a new wire. Car won't start? Check that fuel pump. Seven parts later and the car is good for another 100k miles. Newer cars are meant to be driven and thrown away. The Challenger is no different.

they can do what they want - but Dodge did it first with the Hellcat. the car is an icon - like the viper was. those never die.
Dodge is far from being the first with the Hellcat. Actually Dodge was the last to join the party with the Hellcat. After the 13-14 GT500 and the C6 ZR1 the Hellcat showed up and just topped the other two at the end of their life cycle. Now Ford and Chevy are starting new life cycles with more powerful cars that will put the Hellcat back into 3rd place again. Remember, they all go in cycles. Check out the new ZL1 and 1LE Camaros. Now Ford is going to be joining the ranks with its new GT500 which will put the Hellcat down again. You are right the Viper will never die. It is an icon. That is because it is an actual track car that is seen an international market and competed against other makers on the Nurburg ring. The Hellcat is a Challenger with a supercharged motor. Lots of horsepower with no way to get it to the ground without R spec tires mounted on it. Is it impressive? You bet. It is not the first of its kind nor will it be the last. Unfortunately, after Chevy and Ford put the Hellcat out to the pasture in the next few years, Dodge will attempt to show up with something else again. Lets face it though, FCA has already talked about ditching all of its V8's for lighter cars running turbo 6's. It is a solid bet that there won't be a Hellcat part Deux.

Attended a classic Mustang club meeting (I used own a restored 66 fastback). Anyway, a high level sales manger from one the country's largest Ford dealerships gave the group a preview of what Ford is developing for the next several years.

Coming soon: the Shelby GT500 - a 750 to 800 horsepower ball-breaker with extraordinary sports car handling. He compared the Mustangs to Camaros, and stressed Ford's high retention rate of value (especially the Shelby GT350 which he believes will be a sure-bet collectors car because of its limited number and short run (next year it will be replaced by the GT500). I asked why he didn't mention Challengers. He matter-of-factly explained that the demand isn't there as evidenced by the HC and SPs already being discounted on the retail market. (Not the case with the GT350) He added that most auto buffs view the Challenger as too big, too heavy, no traction... and with the forthcoming horsepower competition, not unique enough to be a hot collector's car. I so DISAGREE!! Although, it is true, with the ZL1 and GT500 our cars are no longer the only bad boys on the block. No matter, I would never go to the Chevy or Ford dark side. They seem cheap and plastic.
Respectfully, bud, I have to disagree with you. The Challenger is also cheap and plastic in many ways. Only recently have they been able to make their cars look and feel a bit better. Look at the older Challenger interiors. Cheap and plastic. It is clear you love your Challenger and I do too, hell I bought one afterall. When I was shopping for a hot new muscle car to drive, however, I looked at all three to see what they offered. The Challenger beat them all for comfort, interior space, power, and pretty decent handling. I am not a Dodge fanboy though, in fact, I have been GM all my life. This is the first time that I swayed from my roots. It has been a great experience to a degree and the chances of me looking at a new Ram in the future is pretty good. To disparage another vehicle simply because it is not a Dodge is a bit foolish I think. If the other two guys come out with some bad ass ball busting mean machine that destroys everything on the road and track with killer looks to go with it......I dunno man....

I would just encourage you to look at the entire spectrum. We make fun of Mustang guys because their cars typically suck, but you can't tell any of them that. They defend their brand tooth and nail with every ounce of fanboyism in their system. Then when they get beat it is nothing but one excuse after another. Be careful joining that way of thinking with Dodge. Dodge has always been the last one to the party with something cool. The Hellcat came out at the END of the Chevy and Ford cycle. Now the other two are about to decimate the Hellcat for everything its worth. Several years from now Dodge will want to come up with something else, but itll be too far too late. The Challenger won't be a collectors item and even if some of them are it will be special edition and it will take well after your lifetime before they come into true value. Even then, what happens when we start phasing out gasoline? The older cars are collectibles because of their simplicity and because they were at the start of the automobile era. With Tesla producing cars that are making Hellcats look silly it is only a matter of time.

I love my Challenger for what it is. Great looking and a fun driving car. I am also realistic that one day I will pass this car on to somebody else while I move on to something even more awesome. I will then remember the Challenger as a fun time in my life while I watch all of the high school kids wreck and trash them in 10 years.
 
#14 ·
You have to remember that he is a Ford rep talking to a Ford audience. I'm sure Challenger is not really on their radar. They have their hands full with Camaro. Mustang is a helluva lot of fun, I loved my Boss 302. What I didn't love was the choppy ride and hitting my head and knees getting in and out of it. I don't have that problem with my Challenger. Drive what you love and love what you drive and don't worry about the other guy.
 
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#16 · (Edited)
We'll see how many GT350 / GT350R models turn out in the end.

With the big dealer markups (Deja Vu moments, remember the HC for '15...?) on those cars being $20-35K and the initial year being a delay start with the 350's.

Once there's plenty on the streets, the 'collectible' factor drops. If a maker keeps building more of the same, they aren't collector cars - not for 30/40 years when the supply of remaining ones in top condition are around.

And face it, there's always some bigger / better / faster, etc coming out.

Just like with HC models in '15, some bought them and flipped them for a quick buck for the impatient buyers. Now you can get them reduced off MSRP.

Same will happen with the Shelby GT350s - things will settle down on those as well. Its now going into 3rd model of production...
 
#17 ·
I love my challenger, have always been in love with the look since they started back up, the torque the 6.4 gives is great and she is a solid car.

I had a 15 mustang gt as well, The mustang is an incredible handling machine, well beyond the capabilities of our challengers. I did not care for how small they are and they have steered away from the muscle look I loved, front end looks too much like a fusion.

In terms of technology (electronics) they are years ahead of dodge. My biggest disappointment in the challenger and jeep srt is the technology
 
#18 ·
"extraordinary sports car handling" says it all, they are now marketed as Sports Cars, not muscle cars. Check out the Camaro website sometime, they call it a sports car, and even Dodge considers the Challenger to be in a different class, Muscle car, than the Mustang and Camaro. They can have their Sports Cars, I love my Muscle Car!
 
#28 ·
Nope...The Nissan GTR started this glorious horsepower mess back in 08-09. Thank you Godzilla!!!!!!
 
#22 ·
@grimmysnr; I completely agree that there won't be another Hellcat, but there surely will be something else. Turboed sixes are nothing to scoff at (even though the Ford fanboys make fun of the new Ford GT). Not to mention if the pistons and rods are strong enough you may be able to take a R/T priced Challenger in the future and put 500 to the wheels for 4-6k and hold it reliably. Hell, look at the N54 in the BMWs it's an inline six that holds 600+ easy. Or the 2JZ for that matter. Even though the engine is 25+ years old it's still considered one of the best import engines ever. Im not saying Dodge will make a strong 6 cylinder, it's just some mighty wishful thinking.


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#23 ·
@grimmysnr ; I completely agree that there won't be another Hellcat, but there surely will be something else. Turboed sixes are nothing to scoff at (even though the Ford fanboys make fun of the new Ford GT). Not to mention if the pistons and rods are strong enough you may be able to take a R/T priced Challenger in the future and put 500 to the wheels for 4-6k and hold it reliably. Hell, look at the N54 in the BMWs it's an inline six that holds 600+ easy. Or the 2JZ for that matter. Even though the engine is 25+ years old it's still considered one of the best import engines ever. Im not saying Dodge will make a strong 6 cylinder, it's just some mighty wishful thinking.


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You are 100% correct. I am not disparaging turbo'd 6 cyls. There are plenty of examples that show that turbo 6s are viable solutions. The GTR comes to mind and that N54/55 that comes in 435s, 135s, and M2s. I have a buddy that has a 2014 435XI with a JB4, intake, and Catless downpipe. That car is effin quick. Now mind you I said 'quick' and not 'fast'. That car beats me from 0-60, 1/8th, and barely to the 1/4. It definitely starts to fall off the closer we get to 100mph. Let's be honest though, how often do we race to 100+ in normal circumstances? When I was at High Plains Raceway battling him around the track, he would beat me in almost every circumstance EXCEPT the backstraight. That was the only time we got 100+. Before that he had me in almost every turn and every little stretch between turns. I just couldn't get the weight transferred and then power back to the ground faster than he could could. Not to mention.....the AWD vs RWD battle when it comes to handling. If his car was RWD I think it would have been a little closer.
 
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#24 ·
#25 ·


I for one hope they never try and compete with the Mustang and Camaro. Let them go off and do whatever it is they are doing. Stay a muscle car! Power, style, room, comfort. A cruiser when you want, a bruiser when you need it. A Guy
 
#27 ·
I don't know guys, the current generation of Challengers may not be able to keep up on the track with the Mustangs and Camaros, but the 4th gen that's happening somewhere between 2019 and 2021 might be able to. It's being built on the Alfa Romeo Giulia frame, so it'll be a little smaller (maybe around the same size as the Camaro?). As long as they keep the same retro looks, and keep as much interior space as possible, I don't mind that. It'll be lighter, faster, and have better handling. Combine that with the rumored AWD platform, big weight savings and V8 engines (which should be around until 2025), and I think Dodge will be at the top of the game again.

I do admire the Camaro and Mustang for what they are, they're excellent track cars out of the box while the Challenger needs some upgraded springs, subframe connectors, strut tower braces and maybe some other things (and of course driver mod counts) before it can really start to compete with the other two. It can be made into a decent corner carver, but not if it's stock.

I also love the Challenger for what it is: a big, stupid, aggressive and retro looking, fast, spacious, comfortable bruiser with the best interior in the 2015+ models, THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE OUT OF (that's what bothers me about Camaros, there's no visibility). There's value in both philosophies. But I am sincerely hoping the 4th gen Challenger is a muscle car that manages to spank the Ford and Chevy elitists :grin2:
 
#32 ·
Yep I would if the GTR and the HC were in the same price range. Not that way any longer now with the GTR in the six figure range and high maintenance costs that go along with it.
Hate to disagree with you Mr. WIKI but the GTR did more for the US than you think building an affordable supercar for us.
 
#33 ·
Mr Wiki? Yeah, resort to name-calling when someone provides data instead of opinion. Also typical of someone on the losing side of a discussion. ;)

But by all means, continue to credit a Japanese turbocharged V6 supercar with starting the HP wars between American automakers. That's your right, just don't expect people to buy what you're selling.
 
#34 ·
I love to read these threads because they take me back to the late 60s sitting around the high school lunch table listening to the same silly discussions/arguments. They sound just as silly today as they did then!
 
#35 ·
Man, the GTR makes 565 at the crank now. When it came out it made 480. That's a respectable number, but for 70K I could take an SS/5.0/SRT, build the block, do all misc mods, and make it a total track car for that price. If we're talking 2016 GTR price I could do that almost two times over. I absolutely would take the GTR in a heartbeat, but the transmission may as well be glass and basic "bolt ons" are astronomically priced. I remember reading through a GTR build thread and a "mild build" ended up costing the dude 60K+the initial cost of the vehicle. He had an 800 hp daily and it only cost 150K lol. The transmission upgrade alone is somewhere in the ballpark of 10-15k.


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#37 ·
In 20 years electric cars will be the norm and our gas burning "hot rods" will be just nostalgic old cars. But I don't care. I drive my '69 Super Bee almost everyday to work or the grocery store. It has none of the modern stuff that our Challengers have but I always get someone wanting to look at it and usually take a pic or two, and it's a totally unrestored barn find. 20 years form now our SRT's and Hellcats will be average performance cars just like my Bee with it's 335hp 383 is about as fast as Toyota Camry. But that doesn't make it any less cool and every year it goes up in value while most cars built in the last 25 years keep going down.
 
#41 ·
One of the major differences between modern cars, your '69 Super Bee and the electric cars of the future is gasoline. When the shift finally moves to electric born vehicles and the gasoline infrastructure that permeates nearly every intersection in the United States is gone, the world view on old cars will definitely change.

It won't make your Bee any "less cool", but at that point keeping them as investments or just a trophy piece will be about their only value. The old guys that remember internal combustion engines will still be around, of course, but the newer generation of the time will give two craps less about a Hellcat that can't even be started; much less driven anywhere.

This is my opinion on the future of course. For all we know, WWIII will happen and we won't have any of these things. Or electric cars will be the compact fluorescent light bulbs of the future and transition us into something entirely different than what we know today. But I digress....

Enjoy the gas cars of today. They will be gone before you know and worth even less as an "investment".
 
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