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what will dodge counter the new Camaro's horsepower with

35K views 414 replies 59 participants last post by  Rambit 
#1 ·
Judging by the weight reduction and increased horsepower, it would seem that the Camaro will have class leading power to weight compared to mustang and 392 challenger.

Wondering what if any response dodge will have. Based on rough numbers, the 392 will need about 525 hp at the crank to match the new Camaro' s power to weight.

Personally, I don't see dodge stepping up the output of the 392 for next year. However, if Dodge were to switch to an aluminum block like their competition, use forged pistons, and up the power to around 525 hp, that would be enough to get me to trade my 2013 srt8 in.

The weight savings of an aluminum block and added power would really tempt me and put the 392 on top of the Camaro again.
 
#3 ·
Judging by the weight reduction and increased horsepower, it would seem that the Camaro will have class leading power to weight compared to mustang and 392 challenger.
Yeah...but it will still be a Camaro! :laugh2:

Kidding aside, yes, besides upgrading to the Hellcat there should be some performance boosting options coming out soon. Steve White is already doing it with what appears to be a more manual process, but it shows it can be done.

With the way Challengers are selling now with the redesign I would doubt we'd see any factory performance bumps. Plus, a lot of people it seems are finding their Scat Packs / SRT's are dyno'ing at higher numbers stock.
 
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#4 ·
Although I'll admit that I would be interested in hearing and reading all about future HP upgrades for the Challenger, my future SRT has "way" more power for my requirements. She'll never see the track and will more then likely be relegated to quick acceleration just to feel and hear that wonderful 392 Hemi.

Here's hoping that the 'Muscle Car Wars' that have been revived after so many years continue for many more! :thumbsup:
 
#5 ·
There's no need for forged pistons in an NA engine without nitrous or forced induction. It's unnecessary piston to cylinder wall clearance in the bore, thus piston slap, thus more piston rock that will get worse with thousands of miles on it. And that adversely affects ring seal. Although...it would take, likely, 75-100k miles to notice. Just some info for you from a builder.:thumbsup: That's why the OEM doesn't use them in NA applications. The high silicon content hypereutectic pistons in OEM engines these days do a great job of aiding ring seal and minimizing blow by...by fitting tightly in the bores and keeping heat in the combustion process.

Maybe Dodge will eventually use a rigid aluminum block to hopefully save at least 50 lbs off the nose. Also, It would be cool for them to return with an NA 426. Just a bigger version of the current 392 would be great! Power and economy all in one. If they do this, they need more tire all the way around for this platform...or the next.
 
#6 ·
There was just an article stating Dodge says they know a cast iron block weighs more but it will stay that way in the hellcat as it's a rock solid base to use.
Are you racing for big money or the bill of sale regularly?
For a few horsepower more you'll get bent over on your car and then spent extra on the difference to a new one just to say you have more horsepower than a Camaro?
Guess what, you'll find yourself buying another new one after that as there is always a new kid on the block to stay ahead of.
 
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#239 · (Edited)
That's just their way of saying they don't have the R&D resources to design a new engine right now. When they do, they'll tout it as the best thing since sliced bread.

In the real world, I don't know why anyone would want a Camaro, the new one comes with the same humongous blind spots as the old one. It is a great example of Form over Function. In fact the only thing that's really retro about it are those blind spots. hehe.

Also, you need to keep in mind that in the last few years Ford has been moving in a different direction. They're aiming for the euro sports-car market. They aren't competing with Chevy or Dodge anymore.

As to Power and Cafe standards, europe already has that down, its why they are slapping turbochargers on everything these days to lower emissions and improve fuel economy.

As to HP wars, at some point it all becomes stupid. The German's entered "Stupid HP" territory several years ago. All that HP, and now they have to add all those extra nannies to contain all that HP and keep it safe on the street. At some point I sort of have to agree with Clarkson when he said that the biggest improvements to be made these days are refinement and interior quality, not HP. What's the point of having an AMG Merc that will melt the tires in under a single lap. Yeah, big HP, but it can't put it down to the ground effectively. Even HQ and Torque aren't the end-all-be-all of a car. Every Veyron that Bugatti sold was a loss. The car costing them 5m to make and selling for 1-.2.5 million depending on the flavor. It was painstakingly engineered to be a safe road car that could do 258mph (limited). Making big HP is nothing. Making big HP, keeping it tame enough for public roads, and refining it so you can see and FEEL where all your money went, costs big money.
 
#7 ·
It's always a HP war. One has to always out do the other. When will it ever stop? You have the best looking and riding car now with plenty of HP. Just enjoy what you have. It's all a mind trick because majority will not even race anyhow and the one's that do knows money buys speed...how fast you want to go? We always hear...This car lost a few pounds, this one has a few more HP.....does it really matter? It's all a sales gimmick. Drive what you like and don't worry if the car next to you has just a few more horses. If it bothers you that much buy a Hellcat, even then you can be beat.It will never stop, someone will always be faster.
 
#8 ·
I for one would like to see a bit of a bump, I'm sure they could kick it up to 500-525 HP without too much problem. Yeah I know and then they will and then we will etc.. but that's what a horsepower war is, everybody keeps getting better, we benefit from better cars and they sell more cars. It's not going to last forever, it never does, so I want to get the maximum enjoyment out of this while we can and before they all go back to FWD four cylinder cars.
 
#22 ·
A ZL1 automatic would have a A8 SP on its heels (within 2-3 tenths). I for one am not worried about the new SS. It will not outrun the 392 A8 cars.
 
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#24 ·
I'm happy with what I already have and will use the money I don't lose from bumping up to the next biggest, bestest, (made up word) fastest whatever car comes from Dodge every so often and buy a Corvette as a garage mate for the Yellow Jacket.
 
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#25 ·
The current Camaro is .2 to .3 and a couple MPH slower than the Challenger, pretty negligible really. They're just playing catch-up. The 2016 Camaro should just about even the playing field and maybe it'll be .1 faster than the Challenger in the 1/4 mile, still a negligible difference as far as overall acceleration. A lot will depend on the torque curve of the new LT1 and whether or not it's as flat as our 392's.

One thing's for sure. No matter what they put in it, even a Challenger SXT can get 5 people down the 1/4 mile faster than any Camaro! ;)

Mike
 
#27 ·
Wondering what if any response dodge will have. Based on rough numbers, the 392 will need about 525 hp at the crank to match the new Camaro' s power to weight.
Put on your fire-suit, bro, nobody is allowed to question HP ratings around here!

Here's hoping that the 'Muscle Car Wars' that have been revived after so many years continue for many more! :thumbsup:
Its a fantastic time to be in the market for a muscle car!

Question, why do some of you want to see mopar stagnate and not try to stay in competition with the other two? Why wouldn't you want to see the new Mopar models be considered right there at the top with the others? I also am just curious.
Well stated!

A ZL1 automatic would have a A8 SP on its heels (within 2-3 tenths). I for one am not worried about the new SS. It will not outrun the 392 A8 cars.
Are you sure about that? I think your hoping.

2015 Mustang GTs Autos are running 12.7 all day long bone stock. Scat packs seem to be running 12.5-12.7 (http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f100/2015-scat-pack-6-speed-1-4-mile-times-319418/).

The 2015 GT has 435hp, 400Tq, an 6sp Auto, and weigh 3705.
The 2015 SS has 455HP, 455Tq, an 8sp Auto, and weigh about 3700 (not sure yet)

SO your saying that the SS, with it's +20hp, +55tq, and +2gears at the same weight won't be faster than the GT?

I think it will go SS Auto, SS Man = SP Auto, then SP Manual, but it may end up being a drivers race.

This is all, of course, with no idea how the new SS platform will put the power to the ground. If the design is good and it can cut like low 1.8 60s on street tires, forget about it.

Anyway, I think all 3 are fantastic cars. I'm going to try to resist buying something until the 2016 Challenger is announced.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Put on your fire-suit, bro, nobody is allowed to question HP ratings around here!



Its a fantastic time to be in the market for a muscle car!



Well stated!



Are you sure about that? I think your hoping.

2015 Mustang GTs Autos are running 12.7 all day long bone stock. Scat packs seem to be running 12.5-12.7 (http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f100/2015-scat-pack-6-speed-1-4-mile-times-319418/).

The 2015 GT has 435hp, 400Tq, an 6sp Auto, and weigh 3705.
The 2015 SS has 455HP, 455Tq, an 8sp Auto, and weigh about 3700 (not sure yet)

SO your saying that the SS, with it's +20hp, +55tq, and +2gears at the same weight won't be faster than the GT?

I think it will go SS Auto, SS Man = SP Auto, then SP Manual, but it may end up being a drivers race.

This is all, of course, with no idea how the new SS platform will put the power to the ground. If the design is good and it can cut like low 1.8 60s on street tires, forget about it.

Anyway, I think all 3 are fantastic cars. I'm going to try to resist buying something until the 2016 Challenger is announced.
Not really hoping, because they better run faster than 11.80.

Because once I bolt my new DR's on... that is what I'm gonna run. ;)

My S.P. ran 114.66 mph in the 1/4 at 1500 Ft Da with a IAT of 150+ degrees. The MPH corrects to 116.22. This MPH was also ran with full traction on which bogged the car horribly.

My main point is, it takes more than 485 h.p. to run that kind of trap in a 4300+ lb car (w/ driver). The 6.4L is at least a 500 h.p. engine... maybe more.

H.P. = Weight x (velocity / 234) (to the third power)

Based on this formula, my uncorrected and corrected traps put me between 511 and 538 h.p. at the crank.

A Camaro that is 400 lbs lighter (w/ driver and fuel), yet still 50-70 h.p. down will not get it done. From I've read, the A8 will have superior ratios to the GM 8 speeds and a superior final drive ratio.

With equal traction, the A8 SP /SRT will still be 3 tenths faster than the new SS.
 
#31 ·
After I bought my SP I immedatey started thinking about my next sport car purchase. I love the car, but I am not brand loyal. If Dodge has no intentions of getting this car below 4000lbs and adding HP across all engines, it probably won't be in my garage. Just stating, with the GT350/GT350R and new Camaro lineup Dodge maybe playing catchup for a couple years (outside the hellcat).

Maybe I'll step into a Gen2 Viper GTS instead...
 
#32 ·
You can't legitimately compare a SP to a GT350. This car is $50 + premium and will be a limited run. They are totally different cars as well.

As many have said before, the Challenger really doesn't have any equal competition. A 500 h.p. 2 door cruiser. Everyone that gets in my car comments on how comfy and roomy it is, yet it is 11 second capable. There is no match for that in the car world.... especially for $39k.

Sounds like you should hop on new Corvette. Pay MSRP and have a very capable car. I hate Corvettes, but the new one is growing on me. The GT350 and the Vette will be good rivals, with both being similarly priced.

I hope Dodge never downsizes the car. I do hope they move to lighter materials, such as an aluminum block. I believe they could get the car to 4,000lbs, but not much lighter. 4000lbs would be fine.
 
#33 ·
Chevy is adding 30 HP and reducing weight just to catch the Challenger. So they'll catch up in 2016. Or maybe not! So what? These things always flip flop, albeit by small margins. They'll still have a sawed off 4 seater (and I'm being generous about the 4 seats). I think Dodge got it right with the Hellcat. These are muscle cars. So give them muscle. You guys do realize that adding just 25 HP equates to the same as about a 200 pound reduction in weight? I'd rather see a 510 HP 392 than sacrificing components to make the car 200 pounds lighter. For the next gen Challenger, if they want to make it a bit lighter, the only thing I'd do is take about 6 inches off the trunk as the trunk is the only thing about the car that is way bigger (longer) than it needs to be. That would shave off probably 50-100 lbs and make the overall length in line with other vehicles in the segment (and the 70/71 Challenger).

Mike
 
#36 ·
Sawed off 4 seater. Now that's hilarious?Dodge can shave off close to 100 lbs by simply changing the seats to the light weight racing seats. There's lots of places dodge can cut weight but that's where people are mistaken IMO. The challenger IS a cruiser. It's in a unique class of its own. Dodge understands that.
As far as the camaro, it's a high 12 second car at best, right? Now as you said which I agree with that 200 lbs equals to about 25 hps plus the 25 hp gain with the LT1 engine in there, that's about .5 second net gain in the 1/4 mile. Combined with their new 8 speed tranny, it's a low 12 second car. That's why I said it's gonna be a driver's race with advantage going to the 392 because of its torque curve. So yes GM is playing the catch up game. That's how I see it anyways. I'm not worried either.




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#39 ·
Dodge gives it its best shot every 3 years or so. They get glory for about 6 months....briefly stay on top, then get their D!ck knocked in the dirt. That is the way it goes for #3 .


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#42 · (Edited)
Lol - I had a dakota RT for like 5 mins back in the day. What a giant turd.

I already posted a couple of examples of 9 sec2015 mustangs on the stock motor and trans and rear end with very minor suspension work (one was full stock suspension).

One with a blower, the other with N20. And they are pushing more like 650-700 rwhp, but you tell yourself whatever you need to sleep better at night! This pissing match is getting boring, as you don't really have a leg to stand on. There is what, one SP running in the high 11s, and like hundreds of 15 mustangs running 10s, down to 9s with stock eng bottom end, trans, rear-end. If you seriously doubt it, then I can easily find someone to run you, but it won't be a free interwebz pissing match.

I agree with the challenger having the best interior vs 2014 GT and 2015 SS, but I think the new models of both close the gap. Again, I think the 2015 SP is an awesome car, I just wish the price gap was a little narrower. I get that the price increase was because of stuff like brakes, cooling, and the 8.4in uconnect, I just wish they would let me pick and choose exactly how I want the car, at a price somewhat competitive with the competition on a HP/Lb basis.
 
#58 ·
Now hold on just a quick minutes...

You said 5k for blower nets you 10's... maybe 9's...

Well here is an article to read:

5.0L Ford Coyote Power Adder Test - Engine Masters Magazine

Looks like it took long tubes, a Kenne Belle 2.8L Mammoth @ 9.9lbs, bigger TB, Intake and tuning to reach 704 at the crank. That is a whole heck of a lot more money than 5k.

704 at the crank is 600 rwhp. That will probably run 10's in that car, but not 9's.

This is no pissing match, but call the ballgame right. You ain't running those times on a 5k blower setup.

NX is a whole different world. Anyone can go fast with NX.
 
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#43 ·
https://www.procharger.com/blog/procharger-helps-build-packs-powerhouse-coyotes

Where to start? How about a 100% stock OEM coyote engine in a 3,800lb street car, laying down 9.20's in the 1/4mile?
Bet we have your attention now! Yes Randy Christian and his D-1SC supercharged Mustang is making huge waves on the
internet. Not only is the engine 100% OEM stock, with no changes other than the BOSS302 intake, but also still has the
stock transmission as well, with only a converter change. Randy enjoys driving this car to work just as much as
ripping off low 9 second passes, proving that heavy weight street cars with mild modifications can make a BIG
impression at the track. Randy's car works its BMR suspension to the max, trying to hold back all of that ProCharged horsepower.

Watch the First 9-Second 2015 Ford Mustang GT Quarter Mile Run (Video) - Torque News

Being the first 2015 Ford Mustang GT in the 9s is impressive, but what is even more impressive is how little work was done to this car to get it into the 9s. Power-adding modifications include a cold air intake, a Boss 302 intake manifold, a fuel system upgrade (pump, injectors), header-back exhaust, a Nitrous Express 150 shot plate system and a Bama Performance track tune. No big engine build, no monster twin turbo setup – just exhaust, intake, nitrous and a tune.
 
#44 · (Edited)
And it will break!
And you left out a few items..I know it was just an oversight on your part.So here I will help you out.


Of course, being able to make use of that power is a big part of putting the 2015 Ford Mustang GT into the 9s, so American Racing has added Cobra Jet Springs, Cobra Jet Shocks, custom struts, Drive Shaft Shop 1,400hp half shafts, a carbon fiber driveshaft and big Hoosier drag slicks around Weld Racing wheels. Finally, to get the weight down, this Mustang GT has a lightweight front bumper support, skinny front tires/rims and both the rear and passenger seats have been removed.
 
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