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why has Dodge said F-it on the 5.7 power upgrade?

66K views 590 replies 83 participants last post by  MYFIRSTMOPAR 
#1 · (Edited)
Any one have a logic on why Dodge would refresh the Challenger for 2015, but continue to leave the HP at a sad 372? i mean, simple shorties , better exhaust, a cam reprofile and tune, your at 420 or so. I mean it's well know the exhaust manis are crap. Dodge wants me to pay top dollar for this "Muscle Car" but doesn't want to provide the muscle, wants to leave it up to me and my ingenuity and wallet. They just want to provide the looks, or charge $7k more for a real motor. :surprise::surprise:
 
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#3 ·
The 5.7 is a really nice, torquey v8 that makes an excellent, very powerful DD. I love mine, but wanted more power.

Although they didn't increase the power of the 5.7, they offered the 392 in an RT for those who want more, so I have one on order now.

Gotta pay to play. Dodge increased the power of the RT by basically letting you option a bigger engine in it.


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#6 ·
Ford and GM don't have an intermediate car. I suspect that Dodge plans on selling a ton of 6.4s, which will bring unit costs down (ford got a 100 HP jump in 11' with the 5.0 at a small price bump). I believe the 5.7 will be discontinued, and future SRTs will all be blown 6.2s.


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#142 ·
I believe the 5.7 will be discontinued, and future SRTs will all be blown 6.2s.


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I just re-read that comment.....................absolutely not. Did you seriously just say that the hellcat will be "THE" SRT in the future?

As far as the 5.7 liter being discontinued......no on that as well.....

Dodge Ram
Dodge Durango
Chrysler 300
Dodge Charger
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Dodge Challenger

All of those vehicles would have to have a replacement engine...some of those vehicles have pretty great sales records...they aren't going to risk that sales base taking a hit like that. That would be utterly foolish.
 
#7 · (Edited)
In the early 80's the Corvette and Mustang had 180-185 horsepower, now compare that to the R/T now and it's a monster. The Challenger R/T is a great car and don't let marketing change your mind. There are many here who are happy with theirs and others who'd give anything to be able to be able to have one.
 
#12 ·
Chrysler would much rather sell, Cherokees and grands, trucks, that's where the profits are, Challenger isn't the bread and butter, it's just frills.....the days of the of the v8s are numbered.......another 5 years maybe if we are lucky......fuel economy requirements and cafe ratings requirements will put an end to it
Luke
I heard that 5 years ago, too.

V8's aren't going anywhere, they'll just tack on some more taxes for buying them.
 
#9 ·
To me, the 5.7 is where it should be now. Back when I got my 2009, the 5.7 was too close to the 6.1. You pay a premium for the 6.1 and it only has 50 more horsepower, so IMO the R/T was a little too close to the SRT back then. To make matters worse, the 5.7 was underrated while the 6.1 was on the money or a little overrated, making them even closer. On top of all that, the 5.7 was just easier to mod and get more power than the 6.1. Open the hood of the 5.7, look at it for 5 minutes, close the hood, and you're putting down almost the same numbers as the 6.1. I know first hand because I saw it. Guys would drop in a K&N filter and they were within 10-15 HP/TQ of my 6.1.

Fast forward to 2015 and now we're where we should be. The 392 is a beast. The V6 is a solid performer at 300 HP. And the R/T now sits where it should: right in the middle. The Hellcat, well that's from Hell, so it doesn't really fit the equation. :)

Mike
 
#389 ·
Can you elaborate on the "significantly faster" part of your statement for the 2015 RT? Haven't had the opportunity to drive a 2015 RT yet. I was thinking that the 8 speed would greatly improve acceleration myself. Hope it is as big an improvement as I have suspected for some time now.
 
#11 ·
I don't know how anyone can call 372 HP "sad" with a straight face. Go back a few years and if you wanted a car with much more than 300HP you were in the exotic/super car domain with high 5 figure - 6 figure price tags. Hell, the Pentastar puts out as much if not more than the typical "muscle car" (quotes borrowed from OP) of the 60s-70s

The 392 has 485HP. If they brought the R/T up into the 400s they would be encroaching on their own higher end car. Why would they do that?

With the 4 engines positioned as they are, the Challenger gives you the option of a tame but responsive V6, a more than respectable V8 (the 5.7), a high performance V8 (392) and a ridiculously powerful SC V8 in the Hellcat motor.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I don't know how anyone can call 372 HP "sad" with a straight face. Go back a few years and if you wanted a car with much more than 300HP you were in the exotic/super car domain with high 5 figure - 6 figure price tags.
I would not call it "sad", but lets put it into perspective. I never understood why people would take a new car a compare it with a 20 - 30 year old car. To make this relative, lets look at the engine offerings of TODAY. There are plenty of auto makers (Chevy, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, BMW, etc) that are making equal or better power than the 5.7L V8 with less displacement and cylinders. In TODAY'S world, a 5.7L V8 making 372 HP is lacking.

HP isn't everything in my book, the balance of the driveline, suspension and chassis working as a unit is what I like to compare. But that is a whole new can of worms. No disrespect to those that have the 5.7L V8, just putting things in perspective.
 
#13 ·
I think the 5.7 is perfectly situated for those who use their car as a DD and who want more than the V6 but don't want the extra expense of the 6.4. The 5.7 automatic bypasses the need for premium fuel, the extra cost when purchasing the car, and the added insurance expense. Even though my Challenger is not a DD, I bought the 5.7 because I couldn't justify the extra money for the 6.1, and because I really liked the look of the Classic package. Had the Scat Pack been available then, I would have gone that route. But it wasn't, so I chose the 5.7.
 
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#15 ·
Logic behind the 5.7

Any one have a logic on why Dodge would refresh the Challenger for 2015, but continue to leave the HP at a sad 372? i mean, simple shorties , better exhaust, a cam reprofile and tune, your at 420 or so. I mean it's well know the exhaust manis are crap. I mean dodge wants me to pay top dollar for this "Muscle Car" but doesn't want to provide the muscle, wants to leave it up to me and my ingenuity and wallet. They just want to provide the looks. Or charge $7 more for a real motor. :surprise::surprise:
I agree that better exhaust manifolds and mids would make for an inexpensive upgrade to the 5.7, drawing from the parts bin while not hurting fuel economy, emissions or durability. On the other items, there are some valid reasons to leave the 5.7 as is.

1. Even today, 372 hp is far from "sad", especially with the excellent torque provided by the 5.7. Even in a heavy Challenger, this provides easy mid-13 second 1/4 mile and low 5 second 0-60 mph. Yes, in the horsepower wars that is relatively "slow", but on an absolute basis a stock Challenger RT is still a fast car that satisfies a good share of the market. 13 second cars are only slow when compared to 12 or 11 second cars. They are still 13 second cars, not a Prius.

2. Dodge has limited R&D resources, both $$$ and people. SRT has been busy working on the Viper and Hellcat. They should be focusing on their halo cars, not tweaking the 5.7.

3. Cam and tune makes more power, but creates potential fuel economy, emissions and longevity issues. Given Dodge already has the excellent 392 for those wanting more, why spend a lot of time and money on making a 5.7 that will get worse gas mileage? Dodge, like all the automakers other than Tesla, has its hands full trying to meet tighter CAFE standards. Zero incentive for Dodge to add a bigger cam or more aggressive tune to the 5.7 that hurts fuel economy.

4. You are not paying "top dollar" for the entry level 5.7 V8. The 5.7 provides relatively inexpensive and respectable performance. If you were paying top dollar for the 5.7 it would be priced the same or close to the 392. Instead, you are getting a significant discount on the 5.7 vs the 6.4.

5. The Scat Pack is about $6,700 more than a 5.7 with the track pack. However, that includes the Brembo brakes up front, which is a significant performance improvement. Looking at the Mustang GT, where the Brembo brakes are optional without an engine upgrade, it looks like Ford is charging around $2,000 for the Brembos. (Ford's Performance Pack is the brembos + equivalent of Dodge's track pack, so I backed the Track Pack price out of Ford's PP). So the incremental cost of the 6.4 over the 5.7 is about $4,700. That is a reasonable amount of money for an extra 100 horsepower and lots more torque, especially below 3,000 rpm.

I don't see any way to add 6.4 power to the 5.7 for less money, even if Dodge had unlimited R&D resources---which they don't have. Those engineering resources are stretched to the limit trying to meet the upcoming CAFE standards.
 
#17 ·
If anything, it would make MORE sense to leave the 5.7 at the 372 or 375 HP output since you can now have a 392 R/T for less than 40 grand.
 
#20 ·
Any one have a logic on why Dodge would refresh the Challenger for 2015, but continue to leave the HP at a sad 372? i mean, simple shorties , better exhaust, a cam reprofile and tune, your at 420 or so. I mean it's well know the exhaust manis are crap. I mean dodge wants me to pay top dollar for this "Muscle Car" but doesn't want to provide the muscle, wants to leave it up to me and my ingenuity and wallet. They just want to provide the looks. Or charge $7 more for a real motor. :surprise::surprise:
The exhaust manifolds are not crap for a 345 c.i. motor that is stock. I believe for '09 they were updated on the 5.7l to be less restrictive and flow better. Once you add serious power adders, shorties would make more sense. To me, the 5.7s strength doesn't lie in the 372/376hp, but in the 410 ft/lbs of torque that pushes you back in your seat. To me, a muscle car with very strong torque makes it a muscle car. It's plenty quick for someone who wants a more affordable option to have a Challenger with a Hemi. The thing that REALLY holds back these cars is the stock tune and excessive torque management. For me, I added some basic bolts ons, a short throw shifter and a custom tune and am EXTREMELY happy with how the car performs. If you really want that much more power, look into the Scat Pack or a used SRT. My car has plenty of muscle, is a daily driver (yes even in the winter) and has very strong brakes (STP) to satisfy me on any day of the year, for any occasion. 4 years now, and going very strong!
 
#24 ·
you should have 1 foot in the ford camp as i do & see all the moaning by sho/mustang owners. ford had a 213 ci engine w/ low end 365hp since '10. have done nothing other than in trucks & suv's to sell it & nothing to improve it. new mustang owners wanted that engine in the new pony & what did they get a 2.3 liter 300hp engine unless they moved to gt. ford could easily get 500 to 600hp out of that engine as some tuners have done & ford itself in it's ecoboost race car. yes the dodge 5.7 is dated, but a solid engine that i enjoy driving as my dd. i'm an old mopar man that was mad at them for a while but atleast dodge has the continued moving the hp up &. ford has left anybody over there wanting more hp to go to aftermarket & then risk chance of voiding warranty.
 
#27 ·
Dunno...maybe because now the stock 5.7L is perfectly situated in their current (Challenger/Charger) engine offerings. An affordable, powerful, high torque, entry level V8, that Average Joe can afford.

or


Maybe the fat cat execs at Dodge are just rolling on the plush carpeted boardroom floor, smoking their cigars, drinking their brandy and laughing at the stupidity of those still buying their (apparently) sad little under powered entry level V8. Maybe they got Jonathen Gruber from MIT to market the 5.7L to stupid Americans who don't know any better.
 
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#28 ·
You seen that guy too?
When are they gonna outlaw that?

i have owned and driven the 5.7, and it's a great motor- stop light to stop light. On the highway, it's about as powerful as a honda, drop the pedal, send a couple of texts, inspect your teeth,.. disappointing for all the Graphics and intimidating looks.
I once owned a 5.0 mustang, back when peak HP was 225. I remember arguments then, about how 225 was the perfect HP for that car etc, etc. I know Dodge has it's hands full, but it wouldn't take much to upgrade the 'HEMI' to respectable numbers. And while you and Dodge may think 372 HP is perfectly fine in a 33k car, who's whole purpose to exists is to go fast, i do not agree. I for one am going to have a real hard time plunking down my hard earned $$$ for that motor, and at a 6.5k premium, the ScPk is not an option. Really going to have to think about this one. :werd:
 
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#29 ·
Any one have a logic on why Dodge would refresh the Challenger for 2015, but continue to leave the HP at a sad 372? i mean, simple shorties , better exhaust, a cam reprofile and tune, your at 420 or so. I mean it's well know the exhaust manis are crap. I mean dodge wants me to pay top dollar for this "Muscle Car" but doesn't want to provide the muscle, wants to leave it up to me and my ingenuity and wallet. They just want to provide the looks. Or charge $7 more for a real motor. :surprise::surprise:
Without a doubt, I have explored the upper regions of all my 5.7's horsepower output. On many occasions actually. Have I ever been disappointed with the results? NO. Do I need more? NO.

For a daily driver it more than gets out of it's own way and personally I think it is a good balance of power, performance and comfort. It can shut down most "other" cars we encounter and leave that same grin on my face as it has since day 1.

Would I like more power?

Who the hell wouldn't?!

How many times in the past 12 months have you used all the power at hand?

If you still argue it needs more power..............you'd better pony up or just deal with it.

Yeah, I'm a Challenger fanboy. Have been for about 40 years. DODGE offers a modern day version with about the same levels of engine/performance options comparatively as back in the day. Nowadays though the 6 cylinder will spank some of the V/8's of that era.

As back in the day..............the harder you wanna play, the more you gotta pay. COMPARATIVELY for an ACTUAL HEMI in that day, well, that option may add as much as 50% of the cost of the vehicle. :werd:
 
#31 ·
OR...........................just pony up!

:grin2:
 
#33 ·
GM reveals 455 hp Twin Turbo V-6 runs 3.9 0-60 mph

Dodge is almost certainly working on a TT Pentastar similar to the V-6 just unveiled by GM this morning. R&D money and resources going to the TT V-6 which will probably replace the 5.7 and 6.4. The good news is performance is not dead, particularly when combined with a smaller, lighter platform.

"The ATS-V arrives next spring, powered by the first-ever twin-turbocharged engine in a V-Series. Rated at an estimated 455 horsepower (339 kW) and 445 lb-ft of torque (603 Nm), the engine is the segment’s highest-output six-cylinder and enables 0-60 performance in 3.9 seconds and a top speed of more than 185 mph. "

Here is link to thread on the new ATS-V:

http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f51/2016-cadillac-ats-v-290074/#post3918434
 
#34 ·
I think Luke is making some good points. I think there is a huge difference between hearing about the death of the V8 now vs hearing that 30 years ago.

1) Engines have progressed far enough that you can get solid performance with a lot fewer liters. FI is part of that, but the simple efficiency is better.

2) Cars kept getting heavier and heavier, but for the first time ever cars are starting to get lighter again. Every manufacturer has plans prior to 2020 for reducing weight. 1 and 2 together means that V8s have more to do with nostalgia than performance. You'll see more and more advertising to make you want the smaller engines.

3) The way CAFE works has changed and now has 2 parts. There's the individual vehicle portion which uses a mathematical formula based on the vehicles footprint vs mpg to determine what kind of tax is required. Plus the entire corporation is penalized if they don't make averages based on their vehicle mix. Manufacturers will have no choice but to try to push people into a smaller more fuel efficient car class to keep their averages down.

I think they'll keep making V8s, but every V8 will become a 'halo' product in itself and will be priced accordingly so it doesn't screw up the fleet average. V8's have an emotional edge, but designers could easily build turbo'd 6 and i4 engines that match a V8 in performance- I think Ford is demonstrating the marketing of the future right now where they are pouring money into convincing everyone that a FI-v6 is not 'lesser' to a v8.
 
#345 · (Edited)
I think Luke is making some good points. I think there is a huge difference between hearing about the death of the V8 now vs hearing that 30 years ago.

1) Engines have progressed far enough that you can get solid performance with a lot fewer liters. FI is part of that, but the simple efficiency is better.

2) Cars kept getting heavier and heavier, but for the first time ever cars are starting to get lighter again. Every manufacturer has plans prior to 2020 for reducing weight. 1 and 2 together means that V8s have more to do with nostalgia than performance. You'll see more and more advertising to make you want the smaller engines.

3) The way CAFE works has changed and now has 2 parts. There's the individual vehicle portion which uses a mathematical formula based on the vehicles footprint vs mpg to determine what kind of tax is required. Plus the entire corporation is penalized if they don't make averages based on their vehicle mix. Manufacturers will have no choice but to try to push people into a smaller more fuel efficient car class to keep their averages down.

I think they'll keep making V8s, but every V8 will become a 'halo' product in itself and will be priced accordingly so it doesn't screw up the fleet average. V8's have an emotional edge, but designers could easily build turbo'd 6 and i4 engines that match a V8 in performance- I think Ford is demonstrating the marketing of the future right now where they are pouring money into convincing everyone that a FI-v6 is not 'lesser' to a v8.
You left one thing out of the equation. For those of us who lived through the first muscle car era I remember what kind of gas mileage those cars got. It was around 7 or 8 miles to the gallon. My 392 is getting three times that. They can and will make the V-8 cars more fuel efficient by getting rid of some of the weight and more technology. But you guys who keep saying the v-8 is short lived weren't around then so you don't remember.
 
#35 ·
Dodge offers badass cars with big cojones for those who can sign the big checks, and cars with puny 375 HP engines (lol) so that the hotrodders with an underdog complex can make them BADAZZ and shame the first guys. It's a perfect world, whether you're loaded or have a permanent chip on your shoulder! Of course, if you're never gonna be happy... you're never gonna be happy.
 
#38 · (Edited)
My car is badazz. The great HEMI hunter. ? Who can forget?
Anyways, I drove a 5.7L hemi not too long ago for the first time and all I can say is was a beast. Was blown away by its power and drivability. Very nice. Way more power than you'll ever need for the street.
I think it's more physiological. After you get used to the power after a while, you get the urge for more power. I know I'm at that point. I feel like my 392 is slow at times. I guess it's human nature in a way. We're never satisfied.
BlackSE, it's all in your head brother. Your car IS badazz.
I also think it's great to have choices. How many companies are out there with 4 engine choices? If you need more, get a 392.


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#36 · (Edited by Moderator)
fords had the TT V-6 for 5 years & sat on it, not improving it or putting it into the pony, the engine has all the engineering cost all paid for & are according to them keeping it where it is for insurance reasons. next years pony supposedly getting only a 2.7L version, they are plain Dumb & Dumber letting GM catchup& pass them & Dodge will for sure do the same thing. they will still sell lots on pony's but when a tuner says they'll be able to get 400+hp out of the 2.3 or the 2.7, it's not the same as the manufacturer saying that as there is a good chance warranty will be voided. & icky right ford is going after masses & as most of the pony guys are saying, paying lip sevice to performance crowd. also a v6 will never sound like a v8.
 
#37 ·
...but when a tuner says they'll be able to get 400+hp out of the 2.3 or the 2.7, it's not the same as the manufacturer saying that as there is a good chance warranty will be voided...
Where towing isn't a concern, I guarantee the factory has headroom on the 2.7 to make it 400+ hp with good reliability and you won't need a tuner to get there. I'm guessing they're being conservative because they are distancing themselves from the old reliability stigmas turbos had in the 80s. The hp will creep up once America isn't as nervous about them.
 
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