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Old 10-12-2008, 08:39 PM
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Everything you need to know about Water/Methanol Injection!

Well almost everything...
I figured I would post up some info on this topic since there have been several threads about it, and we have gotten alot of questions as well. In addition, we spent a few days with Dan and Mike from Labonte Motorsports Water Methanol Injection a few weeks ago so we have even more info than ever.

The information contained here is from a variety of sources including our personal experiences installing and running these kits on various applications for years, Labonte Motorsports, Snow Performance, and others.

Why Water Methanol Injection?
In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion.

In diesels, the effect is three fold: 1. The intercooling effect provides for more available air and all the benefits of a higher positive pressure ratio (more power giving fuel can be utilized safely without high combustion temperatures). 2. The combustion of water provides for more power on the power stroke. 3. Methanol acts as an additional fuel for more power.

A brief History:
Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930.s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol. The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection. The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection. Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the "automatic power reserve system (APR)" for use in hot or high altitude take off. It surfaced again in the 60's when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.

In recent years, water methanol injection has become ever more popular and recognized as an invaluable tool for both gasoline and diesel forced induction engines as well as naturally aspirated applications. While often times referred to as a “chemical intercooler” it is more commonly used in forced induction applications due to it’s substantial cooling effects and added octane increase it adds to pump gas. Reducing air intake charge temperatures by 50-200+ degrees F almost instantly. Providing a substantially cooler denser air charge for a greater expansion of power within the combustion chamber. While also largely eliminating the problem of engine “knocking” and allowing user to run higher levels of boost, compression and increased timing.

As mentioned already. Water methanol injection has also become a tried-and-true proven way for users to effectively increase their 87-93 octane pump gas. Depending on the amount injected, gains up to 10-20+ points in octane can be achieved. Thus, making 91 octane pump gas act like 105-116 octane racing fuel in their engines. Thereby eliminating our dependency for notoriously expensive racing fuels, which can cost upwards of $8.00-$12.00 per gallon, as so many of us have reluctantly had to use in the past. Costing only pennies to operate when using 100% water, its also a far more effective, affordable and convenient of a solution to those expensive octane booster fuel additives as well.


What types of fluids can I use?

Water and various grains of alcohol, methanol, ethanol and isopropanol, are the primary fluids which are commonly used in a water alcohol injection systems. Depending on the application, we have found mixtures of 40/60 water and methanol to perform the best without the risk of being a flammable fluid. This surprises many the first time they hear it. When injected properly into the air charge of an engine, water and water alone, is a remarkable detonation suppressant. The most notable advantages of using water injection is it's inability to detonate as well as it's substantial cooling effect it has on air charge temperatures, combustion temperatures and exhaust gas temperatures. Best of all...it's basically free. Water has a high latent heat of vaporization. Approximately, 8 times that of gasoline and can reduce intake charge temperatures by 50-150+ degrees F on supercharged and turbocharged engines almost instantly when sprayed properly. It’s also an extremely effective octane booster. Since water does not burn “per‘ say, when atomized properly with pump gas, it will effectively increase the fuels octane. Doing so, by improving the fuels ability to resist self-ignition under higher cylinder pressures and hotter cylinder temperatures thus suppressing detonation.

The easiest fluid to use is a non detergent blue windshield washer fluid…this will contain water and methanol!

Through testing and research, comparing high-octane fuels vs. 87-93 octane pump gas combined with 100% water injection (no alcohol mix added). Depending on the build of the motor and volume injected, it is estimated octane increases of 10-20+ points can be achieved by using 100% water injection with 87-93 octane gas. This is after evaluating maximum allowable total timing advance and maximum attainable boost levels with out detonation or pre-ignition.

Benefits of Water Alcohol/Methanol Injection on NA application:

Lower air charge temperatures by 30-40 degree's
Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
Increase your 87-93 pump gas by 10-15+ points
Allows the use of lower grades fuels
Allows you to safely run more timing
Cools and protects the tops of your pistons
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Reduces & helps eliminate damaging engine detonation & pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

Benefits of Water Methanol Injection on Forced Induction Application:

Lower air temperatures by 50-250+ degrees
Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
Reduce EGT's by up to 250+ degree's
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves.

For our Hemi cars I see the benefits being HUGE. For the N/A cars heat soak and high intake air temps rob our cars of power. Running Water/Meth will cool these temps immensely which should help with that issue. Think about it this way…how does your car run when air temps are 50 degrees and IAT's are low vs when it is 90 degrees and IAT's are high.

Another benefit is the ability to tune and add more timing as you would if running race gas but without the expense of race gas. There are also huge benefits for cars running boost from Superchargers or Turbos. Now that we have a lot of options coming this will be a must have. These kits will reduce the intake temps and allow more boost and timing to be run safely..

Lisa saw a pickup of 70+ HP when using the Water Meth Injection on her S/C Mustang. In addition the effect was that she could run the same boost/timing with pump gas as she could with Race Gas and get the same results.

I hope this helps give you all some more information on the benefits of these products. If you have any additional questions post up or give us a call, and we will be more than happy to help. Lisa has been using these kits for many years on the Ford side with great success, I think we will also see great results from the Mopars!

Here is a link to all of our water/meth kits available at Speedlogix, your source for water methanol injection!
speedlogixstore
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Last edited by SRT8U; 09-10-2010 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 10-14-2008, 10:51 PM
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Re: Everything you need to know about Water/Methanol Injection!

GREAT compilation of information from the various water/methanol sources out there! I personally prefer the Labonte water/methanol systems and that is what we have on 3 cars now and soon to be on the Challenger R/T.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:05 PM
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Re: Everything you need to know about Water/Methanol Injection!

Water/methanol injection is something I have have been really into for the past few years and will most certainly be buying a sprayer kit.

What do you know about tunes for the injection?

I know if you tune with the benefits of injection in mind and the lines clog or you run out you will risk extreme engine temps among other things.

Can you run this without a tune that's defendant on it and still see large gains in performance and reliability?
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:23 PM
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Re: Everything you need to know about Water/Methanol Injection!

I actually have a labonte motorsports system sitting in a box here at the house. I bought it because our top octane around here is 90. I had bought the kit from a member of our sister site cherokeesrt8.com. I bought it for the jeep srt but since it is an all year car I was going to pull it out in the winter. Now that I have the challenger I think it is a much better candidate. I want to do a stealth install that can be completely removed if the car needs to go in for warranty work. Couple of disconnects on the wiring and a plug for the washer tank should do the trick. I plan on using the factory washer bottle for a more stealth install. That system is already built to handle methanol. I can tap the CAI for the nozzles and just swap the stock airbox back in if the car needs to go in since it take so little time. I just need to find a clean and easily removable mounting location for the pump and the controller. Should be a fun little project for the winter.
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:47 AM
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Re: Everything you need to know about Water/Methanol Injection!

Cool, can't wait to see your install pics!!
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:34 PM
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Re: Everything you need to know about Water/Methanol Injection!

Originally Posted by BMC Performance View Post
Cool, can't wait to see your install pics!!
I am hoping that someone else with a labonte kit can help with info. The install should be pretty easy.The tuning is going to be the trouble. I am slightly confused by the controller. It would help to have some baseline ballpark info on where to start with settings. I don't have access to a dyno for tuning so I am going to have set my rpm trigger and adjust my high and low by feel. I will see how many inches of vacuum the motor builds at idle and WOT and start there I guess.
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2008 GCSRT8 SBM LOADED-BT catch can,Weathertechs w/srt logo,Jet 180stat,Bwoody 4" CAI,Bwoody Links,Diablo predator w/Modern Horsepower CMR tune, Kicker Premium Upgrade and much more to come
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:52 PM
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Did you ever install the methanol kit, ColdSRT?

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Old 11-03-2009, 09:17 AM
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We never suggest tuning for the water/methanol, just so if there is an issue or the tank runs dry, your tune isn't calling for the cooler temps. We recommend just using the water/methanol as a cooling feature, but not altering your tune to rely on it.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:27 AM
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Do you recommend the same approach for a SC'd application?

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Old 11-03-2009, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HemiSam View Post
Do you recommend the same approach for a SC'd application?

HemiSam
Yes! We have run w/m on a number of s/c vehicles (all kinds) without tuning to rely on it and the impact is substantial just from having the cooler temps that the computer can adjust to. It's similar in a way to how your car runs on a cold day vs. on a really hot day. When the w/m is injected, your car thinks it's really cool outside since the air temps are lowered and adjusts accordingly.

If this were for a dedicated race car, my answer would be vastly different, so I just wanted to add that my comments are always geared toward daily drivers.
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