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That's exactly it. There's too many what ifs. For every what if that's brought up about something going wrong because this employee went and got his gun there's another what if of something that could have happened if he hadn't.
Fact is everyone is still alive
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These conversations are great! Everybody so quick to call somebody a hero and jump on their soap box and talk about perceived right and wrong. Awesome...
What if this "Hero's" situation took the other possible outcome? The armed robber saw his gun and started firing. What if your family was in the store at the time. In a split second, one man's decision just killed your family. Still a hero?
Military service does not automatically make a man (or woman) a hero.
If the armed robber saw the gun and started shooting then it's obvious that he was willing to kill as soon as he made the decision to enter the store armed. You're right, in a split second, the criminal's decision will have killed someone, NOT the veteran. You're beginning to sound like Bob Costas. Blame the person responsible, the criminal. Blaming anyone else is just ignorance.
Originally Posted by pdx.challenger
It has everything to do with cash.. the robber is there for cash. The best way of protecting oneself in such a situation, is to do as instructed when the employment agreement was signed ... hand over the cash.
I don't think we care about the robber's intentions. We're talking about the good samaritan here. His actions had everything to do with preventing a crime, protecting lives and his livelihood. I'm sure he knows that Autozone won't be rewarding him for his bravery, so the only cash involved is his (dis)continued paycheck.
-James "Life without knowledge is death in disguise" ~Hans Peter Geerdes
This young man certainly showed extreme courage under pressure. I hope and pray that under similar circumstances I could muster up the same.
I will also no longer support AutoZone with any of my business. It seems like there is an Advanced Auto right next door to every location anyway. If enough people tell AutoZone that they are going to change over to Advanced Auto they will probably re-hire the young man as AutoZone's Head of National Security.
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The only thing the kid did wrong was to not finish the job. There would be a lot less of this crap if crooks thought the person behind the counter would be armed and not afraid to use it. Although on the other hand, I would be that the crook had no intention of using his gun anyhow if all it took was for him to see the clerk with the gun. That usually just causes the crazy crooks to just start shooting.
I was born & raised in L.A., so I wouldn't be surprised. Rodeo Drive has merchandise that sells for millions of dollars & Southern California crime no longer has boundaries (part of the reason that I left 6 years ago). While crime is everywhere, I assure you there's much more of it in 90001 than 90212.
I get paid to kinda know about crime in the area and although not in LE I've worked for and with cops for years and am very familiar with the topic. What I was getting at was that decisions to fight back are made all over the place, not just in bad neighborhoods where life is 'cheap', and that they tend to go with a certain type (veteran, small business owner, a certain political bent). In the end, while everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to voice it, only people who were at the scene (if that) know what really happened. All others are just MMQs (Monday morning quarterbacks).
I've participated in many such a thread on gun and private security forums and they always get heated and divided along what are basically political lines. People use those as soapboxes to beat their chest or comment on social issues, and this is the inevitable political element I was talking about again. Denying its existence is refusing to see the elephant in the room.
I personally don't think there's a right or wrong answer - that shoot/don't shoot decision is not taken in a vacuum and will be influenced by employer policy, LE and DA attitudes, crime awareness in the area, etc. And as food for thought, here's an hardened ex-cop's take that I always keep in mind: Commentary by Evan Marshall
There's the right thing... and then there's all the ways you can get screwed for doing the right thing. Losing my job would be last on the list of my worries.
90% of people are sheep who get prayed upon
5% are wolves who do the praying upon
5% are sheep dogs who protect the helpless flock who can't or won't defend themselves
This young man was a sheep dog...did he violate Autozone employee policy? Yes. Despite that did he do the right thing? Yes!!!
Got an e-mail answer back from Autozone...they are forwarding my complaint to the appropriate department LOL
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A good friend of mine was held up in his jewelry store by two men at gun point. It was on video and made it to cable tv.
I'm pretty sure I saw a discussion of this on Calguns.net some time ago. There's a reason why when the risk is high people turn to vets and police officers: taking decisive (and successful) action when looking down someone else's barrel is not something you improvise. Jewelry store incidents get real hairy in fractions of a second and most of these guys aren't trying to impress anyone, just to live through the day and keep running their business. The sheep reflex (freeze, surrender, submit to violence) has been trained out of them.
ETA: IMDTfirefighter, you're right about the breakdown (although I'm not sure about the numbers). One thing I've noticed is that the sheep (not all, but a lot) invariably resent the sheepdog. They have trouble seeing the difference with the wolf and the mere presence of a protector makes them weary of risks they'd rather blissfully ignore. They also hate feeling inferior and unable to fend for themselves and their loved ones, so denying the existence of danger is a much preferable option to them. Many also believe that a sheepdog, necessary 'evil' as he may be, can only be sanctioned and trained by the state... so anyone else rising above the level of lethargy and apathy is a wannabe and/or a threat to their way of life.
Last edited by USRWDV8; 12-07-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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One thing I've noticed is that the sheep (not all, but a lot) invariably resent the sheepdog. They have trouble seeing the difference with the wolf and the mere presence of a protector makes them weary of risks they'd rather blissfully ignore. They also hate feeling inferior and unable to fend for themselves and their loved ones, so denying the existence of danger is a much preferable option to them. Many also believe that a sheepdog, necessary 'evil' as he may be, can only be sanctioned and trained by the state... so anyone else rising above the level of lethargy and apathy is a wannabe and/or a threat to their way of life.
What you describe here was explained very well in the movie Team America of all places. Cant put it down here, but if you have seen the movie, you know exactly what I am talking about.
No... I missed that one! I was rather talking from personal experience and observation, but a lot of that can be found in Lt. Col. Grossman's books (On Killing and On Combat) or Into the Kill Zone, by David Klinger, for those interested in the mindset.
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