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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2012, 11:47 AM
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The free market and competition will set the rules and make necessary changes. So many labor laws on the books nowadays. Times are changing. If a company abuses its workers or do shady stuff, they will be exposed.
I like when things are made in USA and rather pay a little more to get American made. But it's just close to impossible to get things that are not made in china.
Unions make it impossible for companies to compete and they're forced to go elsewhere like china.
I will say this, unions are loosing because they come off as bullies and the membership is on the decline. They need to change their behavior. We need manufacturing jobs in this country. And the unions are blocking the way. Nobody can make things better than us and no worker from china, India or elsewhere is better than a US worker (well accept those idiot pot smoking UAW members).
Unions need to change with time. People like Hoffa need to step down and the thuggery needs to stop.
And it all starts from the members demanding change. You must stand up to this thugs, thieves, and you know what.


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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by krzywinski View Post
salaries are set by market forces even for union members. mechanics at united make about the same as delta, even though delta is non union.
Yes and no. It may be true in the case above that they make the same but there are many cases where union employees make more than nonunion counterparts. Is this due to market forces, yes, but the market has been altered by collective bargaining. It is true that people standing together can drive up the wages. I am not sure this is always good though for all involved. Even if Toyota workers make 1/2 that of a GM worker, you need to look at other things. How often are they furloughed? Is the stability of the union job as good as the non union worker? I do not know but it seems to me that Unions care more about higher wages than keeping the masses employed. I have seen them cut their staff just to win a higher hourly wage in the public schools. I guess they figure they will roll the dice on their job to get a couple more dollars an hour.

Plus when I see union bullies, that totally sours me to the whole idea. Michigan was a perfect example of that. This is not an isolate event for them either. These tactics appear to be endorsed.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rscarawa View Post
Here is the bottom line on this issue. Workers should have the right to either join the union or NOT! Put the money and workplace safety issue aside. There have been arguements about company abuse, but what about Union abuse? Before right to work, once a union is in, they own the jobs. You could not get rid of a bad union. Right to work now makes the Unions accountable to their membership and that is what it is all about. This is all about the people, not the union. There is a difference!
I am a union member in a right to work state. if my Union gets out of line or ceases to represent me i can leave the union without losing my job. I also will not be "bullied" or coerced by anyone if i do so. I've been here 16 years, seen people go from wageroll to mgmnt and the overall relationship has been positive.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Redliner View Post
I've seen 30 years of unions at Lockheed Martin and witnessed first hand the laying off of great , young, energetic, young family workers in favor of some lazy jerks that won't get off their butt to hit a lick because they have "seniority". I watch the young family guy go out the door and have to hunt for a job. Unions were necessary to counter-balance what companies were doing to the work-force.........."BACK IN THE 30's" !!! Now the pendulum has swung way too far and the "balance" is gone again........out of control in the unions' direction.
That is a broad stroke and not true in my field(petro-chem). I am drug tested regularly-and everyone here supports this !, but I have given up pension, benefits and no raise for 3 years, yet the company bonuses are ever larger to the board.... I do however make a good living and have the right to stop unsafe directives without fear for my job. I am not a commie or even a Dem, but where i work the Union is a necessary evil.This company in the last 3 years would have had at least 2 incidents bigger than the BP blast if it weren't for our ability to stop actions that were dangerous and greed motivated. have other unions exploited their members and made outrageous demands of companies? Absolutely, but not everywhere, Unions still perform a very necessary check on the power of large corporations providing employees a voice and a say in their environment, in return for the companys goodwill and concessions emplyees owe a top grade work ethic / pride in their job / and some semblance of thanks. I wish it were simple but it's not-I do understand and respect your pov , but it does no apply everywhere imo

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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2012, 08:51 PM
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To blame unions for companies or entire industries moving overseas is absolute nonsense! Unions don't chase industry abroad...greed does! When profit margins aren't "enough" to sustain the lavish lifestyle of company execs you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll do everything in their power to change that. If that means laying off thousands of hardworking highly skilled Americans for cheap labor and subpar quality then so be it! It's that whole notion of enough isn't enough that pushes greed across the ocean and south of the border and NOT unions.


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Old 12-14-2012, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by xrcrx View Post
I am a union member in a right to work state. if my Union gets out of line or ceases to represent me i can leave the union without losing my job. I also will not be "bullied" or coerced by anyone if i do so. I've been here 16 years, seen people go from wageroll to mgmnt and the overall relationship has been positive.
I think that is fine. You can opt out and there is balance in your environment.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SunCityChally View Post
To blame unions for companies or entire industries moving overseas is absolute nonsense! Unions don't chase industry abroad...greed does! When profit margins aren't "enough" to sustain the lavish lifestyle of company execs you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll do everything in their power to change that. If that means laying off thousands of hardworking highly skilled Americans for cheap labor and subpar quality then so be it! It's that whole notion of enough isn't enough that pushes greed across the ocean and south of the border and NOT unions.


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SOmetimes!. But in the end, they are just doing what the end consumer wants, getting a cheaper product.

Talking about union workers being skilled. There are plenty of skilled workers that are non union too. Being skilled is not an excuse to unionize. Take Toyota or Nissan. They build some of their cars in the US. Their non-union employees do a pretty good job too. To be honest, if Dodge did not come out with the challenger, I would still be driving my Toyota now. I had no reason to change other than I wanted it. I suspect my next car will be a Toyota as well unless Dodge does something big to impress me, but I do not see that happening.

I still wonder if the Toyota worker has more job stability than any of the union workers regarding furloughing. It is hard to put a price on that.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:35 AM
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Toyota made the news here, some years back, when they lost out in a suit filed by Wage &
Hour brought by workers out at the Lincoln Alabama assembly plant. Toyota required them
to report for work get dressed in the locker room and only then 'clock in'. Apparently making
people show up to work 30 minutes ahead of clocking in, and the same at the end of their
tour, is against the law. Imagine that. Gosh, I think my next car AND truck will be toyota
cause poor toyota needs all the help we can give them.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:35 AM
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I can tell you this. I never worried one day about anything on that Solara. It never lost a drop of oil and got good gas mileage. I choose a car on what it does for me. Just saying that it did not require union workers to build such a car. Yes, I am looking after "number one" here.

Toyota, Honda, Nissanm Subaru. Put all of their products on a wall and throw a dart at one. The likelihood is no matter which one you hit, it will be a solid car. That is not an accident either.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:23 PM
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I had a (former) friend that would tell me (laughing) about how he would show up at his UPS union job hungover, still drunk or sometimes not at all. Then he would simply sit silently in his supervisor's office, as his union rep did the talking & then he would return to work.
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