A honest question to the manual tranny fan(atic)s...;)

[Mike Penner]

Still like manuals for nostalgia factor. But those DMG/SMG (?) transmissions sound like they're worth trying out. I'll be looking out for one.

The only concrete answer I can see to your question is one of cost. I don't know how much these higher end transmissions cost but I suspect like automatics they are significantly more than the manual.

[Challenger_Nut]

The FUN of it! It's kinda like the kids I see these days that would rather play a Baseball video game instead of going outside to play the actual game. Somethings are better when experienced. Like side stepping an actual clutch and throwing that Pistol Grip shifter through the gears, rather than having some computer controlled B.S. It may not be the the most advantagous as far as E.T.'s go if you are a drag racer. But on the streets it won't make enough of a difference to matter much. Sometimes there just ain't nothing like the real thing.....................

If I were buying a multi purpose vehicle like a family sedan say like the 300C or BMW 5 Series. I would give it some consideration. Just not in a toy like a sports car or Muscle car.

[Legion681]

Originally Posted by Mike Penner

Still like manuals for nostalgia factor. But those DMG/SMG (?) transmissions sound like they're worth trying out. I'll be looking out for one.

The only concrete answer I can see to your question is one of cost. I don't know how much these higher end transmissions cost but I suspect like automatics they are significantly more than the manual.

That's exactly what I think about DSG and SMG.
Everyone seems to rave about them and that made me very curious.
Though DSG is the one that seems to get the best reviews, because SMG is a little bit ... rough. I mean, from what everyone says it seems that it's a perfect tranny for racing, but in auto mode it seems to be a little bit less refined than what someone could expect (I remember reading in an article that in the quickest setting in manual mode, setting #6, they described its action as "rifle bolt" style...). All in all, it's made more for going in a hurry...

But DSG seems to be perfect. As a matter of fact, even Porsche decided to employ it for their cars from MY 2007 and Porsche doesn't mess around with lousy trannies for sure. And now Mitsubishi is bringing out its Evo X with it...

If you ask me, I think that we will see a lot of these in cars in a few years...

As far as the cost is concerned, yep DSG is fairly steep: I just went to Audi's website and built an A3 and the price difference between the regular 6speed manual and a DSG is $1,480 more.
But as you might have guessed, I have the feeling its worth its weight in gold...

[Legion681]

Originally Posted by Justin Heileman

I could see three reasons really. One would be the fact that you can keep your revs up at a drag strip launch simply by just slipping the clutch don't now really how the smg's or what not work but i couldn't see having this kind of control over rpms via clutch. Two would be clutch dump burnouts. Nothing better than just revving the car up to 5 grand and dumping the clutch. Three would be drifting w/ clutch control....Can you tell I break alot of stuff. Good thing for warranties. One question though on those how does it work taking off from a stop with the clutches or what not. I never have really got much exposure to these.

Very interesting points and I wish I would be able to answer them in the most efficient way, but I never had a car with DSG or SMG and therefore I can't be the person to answer your questions.

The only thing that I know for sure is that the BMW M5, with its 2nd generation SMG transmission, has a feature called "launch control" which is a 1-button procedure (it means just that: you press a button and the car sets all parameters to the perfect point for a start "bat out of hell" style) and gives you all the time a perfect launch (sadly this feature has been disabled for cars coming to the USA...it's only for European models...don't ask me why).
On top of that, semiauto transmissions in racing (and DSG + SMG are the "civillian" versions of the racing semiauto trannies) have been in use in Rallyes and Formula 1 for over a decade now and both Rallyes and F1 start with their engines at a certain rpm level (I believe for Rallyes to be around 3-4 k rpms, while for F1 probably around 8-10k rpms), therefore I would bet that even for the "civillian" versions you ought to be able to do that.

[Legion681]

Again a big thank you for the feedback, guys, it's very interesting.

I researched a bit youtube for some DSG (and SMG) videos, and here are some:

- VW Golf GTI 2.0 Turbo with DSG (Fifth Gear review)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EdjEE0edPw

- VW Golf GTI 2.0 Turbo DSG vs. same car but with manual (made in Japan...sort of funny...it also shows that the GTI with DSG has launch control...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmMNRQ1GJ3o

- BMW M3 SMG Launch control tutorial (interesting is the last part with an M3 actually doing a launch...running thru the gears, sounds fantastic)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boVK0O3zqGc

- BMW M5 Experience (super cool...the sound of the 500 hp 5.0L V10 with SMG changing gears it's something pretty amazing...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7d0IgpiYgQ

Hope you liked them...

[mike the tiger]

A manual tranmission vs any kind of auto or semi-auto is a all about of connection between you and your car. With a manual and experience, the driver becomes one with the engine: you feel the engine and trans in your hand and your foot, you are in synch with the revs of the engine and you feel it working for you! You try to extract the most of it and in a curve on the road, you need experience and ear to know exactly when it is time FOR YOU (not the computer assistant) to downship, double clutch, upshift, feel the revs, the engine, the connection between the trans and the engine and present the engine and the trans at exactly the right revs/time for them to work together at their best: you do not decide with your brain, you do not think...you feel! You are the one in full control. It is something you learn with experience..and years. It is like making love or looking at someone doing it for you. It is like making music yourself or hearing someone doing it for you. It is like driving a car or sitting in the passenger seat! It is impossible to explain: you know or you do not! Working a manual is an art and you do not care if it is a bit slower than an auto or manumatic or any kind of hightech...YOU are the only boss of the engine and the trans with a manual...no assistant! I hope I was able to make you feel a little of the magic of a full and ungoverned manual! The more years and miles you get behind the wheel with a manual the more fun you have! IT IS A MATTER OF FEELING!

[Moparian]

Originally Posted by sniper226

I for one really want an automatic. I plan on having mine as a part daily driver to and from work (when weather permits ) and my drive consists of alot of bumper to bumper & light to light traffic. It will be no fun having to ride the clutch all the time. Sure you don't have that tourque feeling like you do with a stick but the power is all there and no missed shift when you want to have a go with someone.

PLEASE offer automatic the first year!

Amen Brother! Having driven a "stick" most of my life, I only want
an automatic now! Next time you are in traffic (15 mile) back-up (stop & go)
with your "stick"....have a picnic!

Gotta Love It!

[Legion681]

Originally Posted by mike the tiger

A manual tranmission vs any kind of auto or semi-auto is a all about of connection between you and your car. With a manual and experience, the driver becomes one with the engine: you feel the engine and trans in your hand and your foot, you are in synch with the revs of the engine and you feel it working for you! You try to extract the most of it and in a curve on the road, you need experience and ear to know exactly when it is time FOR YOU (not the computer assistant) to downship, double clutch, upshift, feel the revs, the engine, the connection between the trans and the engine and present the engine and the trans at exactly the right revs/time for them to work together at their best: you do not decide with your brain, you do not think...you feel! You are the one in full control. It is something you learn with experience..and years. It is like making love or looking at someone doing it for you. It is like making music yourself or hearing someone doing it for you. It is like driving a car or sitting in the passenger seat! It is impossible to explain: you know or you do not! Working a manual is an art and you do not care if it is a bit slower than an auto or manumatic or any kind of hightech...YOU are the only boss of the engine and the trans with a manual...no assistant! I hope I was able to make you feel a little of the magic of a full and ungoverned manual! The more years and miles you get behind the wheel with a manual the more fun you have! IT IS A MATTER OF FEELING!

Thanks for the very passionate post, I really appreciate it !

About the "magic of a full and ungoverned manual", I actually think I know a bit about manuals (... ...), seen that I drove only manuals in Europe for 20 years (over there, still probably some 90 % of people drive manuals...auto are relatively rare, semiauto much rarer...), starting with my father old rustball, a 1978 Renault 18 GTS, and then owning 6 cars of my own thru the years, from a clunky Seat Ibiza GLX in the 80s that had one of the worst gearboxes I ever encountered in life, to my last car there, a 2001 BMW M3 with 343 hp with a buttery smooth 6 speed manual, probably the best I ever had.
Never mind also that I drove scores of other vehicles (most of them belonging to friends, the rest being vehicles at dealerships I tested) of all brands and all with manuals.
I wrote this just to point out that I asked the opinion of people why they might prefer a manual instead of a DSG or SMG because as a very experienced driver with a manual, I personally don't see the advantage of a manual over DSG+SMG.
If it's purely emotional/nostalgia motivated, I understand and I respect that.
But from a technical point of view, I must say that so far no poster was able to provide any fact supporting the manual superiority when compared to DSG and SMG. And I understand that, I came to the same conclusion. But please keep on posting if you have any comment ! I really appreciate it.

Using an analogy (by using rifles)...a manual is like a bolt action rifle, to be ready to fire again you need to operate the bolt (= in this analogy, operating the clutch pedal in order to allow you to engage whatever gear you need by moving the gear lever)...a DSG or SMG is like a semiauto rifle...when you squeeze the trigger, it already ejects the spent shell and loads the next one into the chamber (=DSG+SMG operate the clutch themselves) but you are in charge of pulling the trigger for the next round (=you are the one that decides when and what gear to select and engage). Basically DSG+SMG automate+improve a couple of task (pedal clutch pressing/depressing, throttle blip when downshifting) that honestly are not that rewarding (well, ok, throttle blipping to match revs it's quite cool), but you are still in control, totally.
As an experienced manual driver, I personally long for something more than the usual (as I have been there and done it for 20 years), and this type of new trannies seems to actually be it, because they optimize to superhuman level the performance you can obtain.
Though I must admit that for a youngster, someone that has no or little experience with manuals, I'd rather suggest them to try manuals before going for stuff like DSG/SMG as it's better to learn the basics and all the tricks of the trade, before going to stuff much more advanced like DSG/SMG, IMHO.

PS: do you still do double clutch ? I hope just for the sake of it, because there has not been really any need to do it for a few decades now.

[MikeF]

I have halfway followed this thread and it is time to stop. The original question and every response is purely subjective. There is no way to quantify emotions. You will either like or dislike a type of transmission and make a choice based on what you like.
All this which is better and prove it stuff is worthless. No minds will be changed and all the repliers are losing time in their lives that they will never get back, including me.
Let's just let this go.

[kyum]

I started with a 1965 mustang fastback 4 speed 20 years ago and have been driving standards all my life up untill last year when i sold my 2003 cobra mustang.I gotta admit im sick of the old technology and riding the clutch when i would go on semi long drives the short drives were wonderful but since i enjoyed driving my cars the short drives didnt happen much.

Now with that being said i do prefer driving standards over autos.But unless the new challenger finally gets some tech and makes the move to dsg its gonna be an auto for me.

The new dsg is everything the old standards were and more.Full control of your power delivery.

Not wanting improved standard trannys is like asking for the old chasis of the 60s back,or the old suspensions,or going back to carbs.We need some transmission tech its time,long overdue.