'Cuda vs Hellcat Sound Wars - Page 4 - Dodge Challenger Forum: Challenger & SRT8 Forums
SRT Hellcat 6.2L Supercharged (2015 - ) Would you like the BLACK KEY or the RED KEY?

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post #31 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by garyahouse View Post
Let's push the reset button here. As per usual on the forum, we routinely digress. Not that I'm complaining, I do it too. But my original question was why does old school sound so much better than new school?

Old engine / new engine. Different firing order, different overlap, different cam, different induction, electronic throttle, catalytic converters, active exhaust with valve, etc.

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post #32 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by garyahouse View Post
Let's push the reset button here. As per usual on the forum, we routinely digress. Not that I'm complaining, I do it too. But my original question was why does old school sound so much better than new school?
I think we got off topic a little because the answer had already been explained prior to the the diversion.

To recap?

Your BIGGEST difference is in the cam timing and how engines make power today vs yesterday.

Roller lifters allow for much faster opening and closing of valves. The resulting smoother idle with more vacuum at low engine speeds sure doesn't sound nearly as "cool" or "racy"........but it does work WAY BETTER in that it doesn't leave the bottom end of RPM range DECIMATED for power in the way a flat 'tappet" cam did with it's far less aggressive open and close speed. The old design overlapped an intake and exhaust valve opening and closing at low engine speeds so severely that it created that "racy" sounding STUMBLE in the exhaust note.

The other big difference is not really an exhaust sound at all.

Anyone old enough to remember "flipping" an air cleaner lid on a carburated car with no changes under the hood to get a louder acceleration already knows this......but for anyone too young to remember doing that here is something else that is different today vs the old school carb. INTAKE NOISE......it can be HORRENDOUS LOUD as an engine ingests air to mix with the fuel it burns. An open element air cleaner with a 4 barrel Carb sounds louder and different than modern air boxes and throttle bodies.

The exhaust under the car?

Hey, remove the cats and add long tube headers ....... virtually every older car will have this set up because most didn't have Cats and it was super cheap and completely legal to do. Modern cars? People do it but it's not legal to remove cats completely and long tubes for the modern muscle car.......pretty expensive so they are less commonly installed.

It's just my opinion but in these few points ......I think is where most of the difference you hear is found.

It's also hard to compare "apples" to "apples".......engine displacement matters too and today it's rare to find exact an comparable between new and old. Yet displacement differences will change things too even when all other things are equal.

Last edited by TA 392 YJ; 06-14-2018 at 08:25 AM.
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post #33 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 01:49 PM
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All I can say is cutouts are my next mod! My Zoomers are already loud, but why not make it louder on demand!!!


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post #34 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-15-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TA 392 YJ View Post
I think we got off topic a little because the answer had already been explained prior to the the diversion.

To recap?

You're BIGGEST difference is in the cam timing and how engines make power today vs yesterday.

Roller lifters allow for much faster opening and closing of valves. the resulting smoother idle with more vacuum at low engine speeds sure doesn't sound nearly as "cool" or "racy"........but it does work WAY BETTER in that it doesn't leave the bottom end of RPM range DECIMATED for power in the way a flat 'tappet" cam did with it's far less aggressive open and close speed. The old design overlapped an intake and exhaust valve opening and closing at low engine speeds so severely that it crated that "racy" sounding STUMBLE in the exhaust note.

The other big difference is not really an exahaust sound at all.

Anyone old enough to remember "flipping" an air cleaner lid on a Carburated car with no changes under the hood to get a louder acceleration already knows this......but for anyone too young to remember doing that here is something else that is different today vs the old school carb. INTAKE NOISE......it can be HORRENDOUS LOUD as an engine ingests air to mix with the fuel it burns. An open element air cleaner with a 4 barrel Carb sounds louder and different than modern air boxes and throttle bodies.

The exhaust under the car?

Hey, remove the cats and add long tube headers ....... virtually every older car will have this set up because most didn't have Cats and it was super cheap and completely legal to do. Modern cars? People do it but it's not legal to remove cats completely and long tubes for the modern muscle car.......pretty expensive so they are less commonly installed.

It's just my opinion but in these few points ......I think is where most of the difference you hear is found.

It's also hard to compare "apples" to "apples".......engine displacement matters too and today it's rare to find exact an comparable between new and old. Yet displacement differences will change things too even when all other things are equal.
Agreed. Nice post. A Guy also had a good post about the differences. Not to mention the machining tolerances in the old cars. You could take two 383's and one would run great and one just decent. So much variance in the old ones. I'm not sure if this made much of a difference in sound though?

I absolutely turned my air cleaner lid over! I always put a nice wax job on the good side as to not ruin my engine sticker... or, I would run a crappy top if I had one that fit.
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post #35 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-15-2018, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TA 392 YJ View Post
I think we got off topic a little because the answer had already been explained prior to the the diversion.

To recap?

You're BIGGEST difference is in the cam timing and how engines make power today vs yesterday.

Good points.
I would like to add... computer controlled cam timing and computer adjustable intake runners make for a engine with a very wide powerband.
Those changes allow you to have low end torque with high end horsepower.
And all this with a perfect stoichiometric air fuel mixture all the time.

Not to mention the way cooling systems work now to what they were 40 years ago.
Technology is indeed great
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post #36 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-16-2018, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by KurtfromLaQuinta View Post
Good points.
I would like to add... computer controlled cam timing and computer adjustable intake runners make for a engine with a very wide powerband.
Those changes allow you to have low end torque with high end horsepower.
And all this with a perfect stoichiometric air fuel mixture all the time.

Not to mention the way cooling systems work now to what they were 40 years ago.
Technology is indeed great
Cooling systems don't make a difference on sound......but I can remember riding to Cape Cod in the summer as a kid in the 1960s in the back seat of my parents car.

For anyone who doesn't know Route 3 from Boston to the "bridge" that gets you on to the Cape.....it's enough to know that there is a rotary you go though before crossing.....pick the wrong time and day to cross in the summer and you get stuck in a back up that sees you doing stop and go for those last couple of miles. Summer heat always saw a few cars on the side of the road back then over-heated and cooling down. God forbid that still happened with today's aluminum heads and blocks. It'd be a whole lot more expensive than a extra gallon of coolant at your next fill up.

Then there is comupter engine management. WOW! This is the real magic under the hood today any one in the 1970s would have never believed was coming or even possible.

Funny thing about the old engines and cars......most never live up to reputation because they were almost never up to potential on tuning. Watch the old cars run stock tires, full exhaust through manifolds and turn amazing times today and a lot of people quickly yell, "that's not stock" yet they are. It's just that the cars are fully and completely tuned perfectly for power. A Balancing act that only happened with consistency at the race track when the car was set up by someone who actually knew what they were doing.

Today we don't even think about it.....because we don't have to. The computer manages it all. Timing and fuel mixture in real time making adjustments by the second as things and conditions change.

It can't be over-stated how much difference this makes. An old school 340 could easily be 10% down on power just by having the jet size in the carb off by a little bit for the conditions....more if it's way off. Timing....too retarded and you lose power in a big way too......too advanced and well.......it's crying time when this goes really wrong.
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post #37 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-16-2018, 09:05 AM
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[QUOTE=TA 392 YJ;8323817]Roller lifters allow for much faster opening and closing of valves. The resulting smoother idle with more vacuum at low engine speeds sure doesn't sound nearly as "cool" or "racy"........but it does work WAY BETTER]

That why the shakers on the modern Hemis don't "shake" as much as those on the classic Challengers and 'Cudas.


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post #38 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-16-2018, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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On posts 2-5 on this thread, we briefly addressed how modern engines are reluctant to settle back down to idle. It was one of the notable differences between the sound of the old and new school engines. But more importantly this also affects engine braking and for me, it's irritating. I'd love to let off the gas, and have the engine drop immediately to idle, and thereby supply a truck load of engine braking. This is one of the things you manual trannie guys love about the big HEMI: downshifting to slow the big girl down. Granted it's not quite the same, but I do it with my A8 all the time. However, the car has its moments when engine braking ain't happening, especially at lower RPM's. Feels like the throttle is stuck, though I know it's not. I let off the gas pedal, but the engine doesn't seem to get the memo. This is especially true when the motor is cold. I don't suppose this can be changed somehow, or maybe addressed with a tuner?
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post #39 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-16-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TA 392 YJ View Post
Cooling systems don't make a difference on sound......but I can remember riding to Cape Cod in the summer as a kid in the 1960s in the back seat of my parents car.
I realize that.

I was referring to the fact about the new engines out there today and the tech that makes them work so well... which you pointed out very well.


There's still signs all around California at the bottom of notorious grades that warn you to turn off your air conditioning before going up.
And water locations for refill of the radiator.
Nowadays you can just sail up those grades with the air on full blast. Even though it's 110 F. outside.
It wasn't even that far back in the 60's that cars had issues with the cooling systems.
Remember when coolant recovery tanks were a novelty you got at an auto parts store.
Dodge did it best in their 70's pick ups with recovery tank that went across the whole TOP of the radiator... the best location for that tank.
Once again Chrysler engineering coming out on top.
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post #40 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-17-2018, 08:51 AM
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[quote=Cuda340;8328177]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TA 392 YJ View Post
Roller lifters allow for much faster opening and closing of valves. The resulting smoother idle with more vacuum at low engine speeds sure doesn't sound nearly as "cool" or "racy"........but it does work WAY BETTER]

That why the shakers on the modern Hemis don't "shake" as much as those on the classic Challengers and 'Cudas.
The whole idea of the modern shaker is a really just a RETRO appearance package thing anyway.

It really doesn't work at all as it did in the past. The plumbing required to hook it into the intake is too long and restricted to truly call it a functional piece today in the way it was in the early 1970s.

It was a much more "functional" piece when it was attached to the carburetor on top of an engine......today with the plumbing required to get it attached to the throttle body up at the front of an engine......it's really just all about the Retro appearance. You're not getting any performance advantage you don't have already in modern Challenger that doesn't have a hood with a big hole in it.
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