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post #51 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-23-2018, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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Not the case

Quote:
Originally Posted by ygbsm View Post
No, it's not. Even if the Gen II 426 Hemi was underrated, you're talking about 500 SAE gross hp. Not installed in car, with no accessories attached, etc. In 1971, the 426 Hemi was rated at 350 SAE net hp.

The 392 Hemi has 485 SAE net hp.
I acknowledged that (gross hp) in my post when I said "brake"hp. There is no way a Gan II 426 Hemi's numbers fall in at 350 SAE Net. There have been too many dyno runs on stock build 426 Hemis to prove otherwise.

Check out this modern day dyno test on a stock 426. Almost the exact numbers as a stock Gen III 392. This was exactly my point in my original post.


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post #52 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-23-2018, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleCarProf View Post
I acknowledged that (gross hp) in my post when I said "brake"hp. There is no way a Gan II 426 Hemi's numbers fall in at 350 SAE Net. There have been too many dyno runs on stock build 426 Hemis to prove otherwise.

Check out this modern day dyno test on a stock 426. Almost the exact numbers as a stock Gen II 392. This was exactly my point in my original post.
Stock 1969 426 HEMI Dyno run 484HP-488FtLbs - YouTube
1) You didn't mention gross hp, you mentioned brake hp. Brake hp is different from gross hp.

2) That video doesn't prove anything. No dyno sheet, no test conditions specified, no SAE standard specified, not installed in engine, no accessories, etc. Am I just supposed to take his word?

3) 426 Hemi was rated at 350 SAE net from the factory in 1971, the only year gross and net were published. Multiple sources confirm. See below:


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post #53 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-23-2018, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ygbsm View Post
1) You didn't mention gross hp, you mentioned brake hp. Brake hp is different from gross hp.

2) That video doesn't prove anything. No dyno sheet, no test conditions specified, no SAE standard specified, not installed in engine, no accessories, etc. Am I just supposed to take his word?

3) 426 Hemi was rated at 350 SAE net from the factory in 1971, the only year gross and net were published. Multiple sources confirm. See below:

I'm not going to argue with you on this. There have been several modern dynos on 426 Hemis that reflect this. Also, net documentation you provided would be underrated as it was when they reported it as "brake" or "gross".

Here's a little info on the terms used for HP that may help because brake and gross are the same thing:
"Prior to the 1972 model year, American automakers rated and advertised their engines in brake horsepower, bhp, which was a version of brake horsepower called SAE gross horsepower because it was measured according to Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) standards."
They're referring to HP without accessories.

Another one:

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post #54 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-23-2018, 10:29 AM
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The old school guys love to do engine dynos on a stand for the higher numbers

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post #55 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-23-2018, 10:35 AM
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Don't you claim to be a professor? Someone who is interested in backing up their arguments with evidence and research?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleCarProf View Post
I'm not going to argue with you on this. There have been several modern dynos on 426 Hemis that reflect this.
OK prove it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleCarProf View Post
Also, net documentation you provided would be underrated as it was when they reported it as "brake" or "gross".
I haven't seen you offer any evidence that a Gen II 426 Hemi wasn't rated at 350 SAE net by the factory. No retraction of your statement, even when faced with evidence to the contrary. Just that it was "underrated". By how much? To equal a 392 Hemi it would have to underrated by 135 SAE net hp. You can't seriously be saying that it was underrated by 135 SAE net hp. If you are, then prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleCarProf View Post
Here's a little info on the terms used for HP that may help because brake and gross are the same thing:
"Prior to the 1972 model year, American automakers rated and advertised their engines in brake horsepower, bhp, which was a version of brake horsepower called SAE gross horsepower because it was measured according to Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) standards."
They're referring to HP without accessories.
Exactly! Brake and gross are not the same thing. Right there in your quote, it says SAE gross hp is different from brake hp. Gross hp is without power robbing accessories- no water pumps, air cleaner, belts, radiator fan, with an optimized exhaust system (headers), etc. Brake hp excludes driveline losses. 392 Hemi - 485 SAE net brake horsepower. Gen. II 426 Hemi- 350 SAE net brake horsepower. Even if it was underrated by 50 SAE net horsepower, it's much weaker, stock for stock, than a 392.
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post #56 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-23-2018, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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A
Quote:
Originally Posted by ygbsm View Post
Don't you claim to be a professor? Someone who is interested in backing up their arguments with evidence and research?



OK prove it.




I haven't seen you offer any evidence that a Gen II 426 Hemi wasn't rated at 350 SAE net by the factory. No retraction of your statement, even when faced with evidence to the contrary. Just that it was "underrated". By how much? To equal a 392 Hemi it would have to underrated by 135 SAE net hp. You can't seriously be saying that it was underrated by 135 SAE net hp. If you are, then prove it.



Exactly! Brake and gross are not the same thing. Right there in your quote, it says SAE gross hp is different from brake hp. Gross hp is without power robbing accessories- no water pumps, air cleaner, belts, radiator fan, with an optimized exhaust system (headers), etc. Brake hp excludes driveline losses. 392 Hemi - 485 SAE net brake horsepower. Gen. II 426 Hemi- 350 SAE net brake horsepower. Even if it was underrated by 50 SAE net horsepower, it's much weaker, stock for stock, than a 392.
I seem to have struck a nerve here. Did you read the quote I provided you on brake and gross? Re-read that my friend; don't confuse brake and gross with net hp. Nowhere in the quote I provided does it state they are different (gross and brake), quite the contrary. Proof? I even provided you with an additional video clip of a dyno test on a stock 426. Did you not see that? As far as trying to insult me by calling out my profession, any time you want to discuss qualitative or quantitative research along with supportive results, I'll be more than happy to bore you with the extensive details of my research (non Hemi related). Try a little "Google" research on "426 Hemi dyno results" and see what you come up with. I have more hard copy books and muscle car mags that have addressed this very topic than I care to go back to re-read.

Another quote to help you out:
"You can measure the BHP (brake hp) with no alternator, water pump, or other accessories normally mounted on the front of the engine, along with a free flowing exhaust to maximize the numbers. That is what was done in the early years and in the USA is called gross horsepower."

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post #57 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 11:55 PM
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Ok, so with a new viper on the horizon rumored with an all aluminum normally aspirated V8 at the lowest trim I do finally believe that this could be the same 426 HEMI that will also find its way into the Challenger lineup.


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post #58 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 11:56 PM
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post #59 of 82 (permalink) Old 05-29-2018, 06:51 PM
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