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Yes, but I don't listen to a lot of material that reaches down in that range-A few things like old Genesis albums that I digitized from vinyl, and some newer stuff, like twentyone pilots. most source material doesn't get anywhere near there but it helps on the "fill" with other stuff. I am surprised that a sealed 10" sub in the trunk can actually put that much out. Adding a 2nd sub adds 3dB so I can't figure out any musical reason anyone would want to do it. Mainly for looks and show, I guess, and I can respect that.

I've been thinking of re-tuning that system, and you have me hooked on the possibility of using a DSR1 as a reasonable way to grab a signal from the Challenger system to pass that through the mini-DSP and some class D mounted like yours amps to play with that. But I think my first step will be to try the new Infinity surface mount 8" flex sub and figure out a way to seal it in the rear deck in the recommended 0.4 cubic foot enclosure. Then upgrade the speakers. But the car is only a month old and I don't want to tear into the interior yet. I'm going to start with the engine bay and stuff like that first. Took me about a year or so to get to the Charger and you can see those sweeps are 5 years old now.
That's why I love what you are doing-thanks for sharing so much-really getting a lot of ideas and learning from your perspective.
 

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Discussion Starter #102 (Edited)
Did a little more 'tuning by ear' today and man does this thing sound great - and *powerful* (so much more powerful that the stock system!). I was just playing some different songs while tuning and I put on AC/DC "Back in black" and somewhere near the beginning of the song, I heard one of the band members say "1... 2... 3.. 4..." real quietly in the background. I must have listened to that song thousands of times and I don't think I've ever heard them say that before! :)

I haven't even gotten to the point of doing any *real* tuning yet, but I'm loving it already. Now my radio really cranks and sounds awesome while cranked. I'm going to be a little "handicapped" at the bottom end until I get a sub, but even without the sub, it's still awesome. I'm probably just going to get a very modest under-the-seat sub - just something to help fill out the bottom end a little. If I remember correctly, there is a few inches of room under the passenger seat, so I should be able to fit a decent under-the-seat sub there.

I did close up that big gap in my crossovers too - and did a little "by ear" EQ'ing - definitely better that way. :) I don't know why, but I still haven't gone through the time-alignment "wizard" in PerfectTune - it would take me all of 5 minutes to measure and input the numbers... Once I do that, it will make it even that much better.

You never know, @Iamstubb - you may just find that you don't even need the miniDSP's - the DSR1 is a full-featured DSP system... It's basically the Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty DSP processor - which they sell as a standalone DSP system as well (which retails for $700 by itself)!. Like I said, for the price, the DSR1 is hard to beat - especially since it does DSP and plug-and-play integration with the stock radio - I have no idea how they offer the DSR1 for ~$250 between the DSP and integration it performs. I found that the t-harness along with the 4m extension is about the perfect length - at least if you install the DSR1 in the trunk spare-tire well. THere isn't much slack left, but it definitely is long enough.- barely. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #103
Ugh - I haven't even *really* tuned my system yet and I'm finding it harder and harder to get out of the car when I get home. :)

At first, it seems like the extra wattage isn't going to provide the extra volume that I had hoped for - but it's just the way the volume control is "calibrated" - it's very "gradual" until you get up in the 20's - but then, with the new amp, every single notch once you get over 25 or so, increases the volume level so much more than it did with the stock amp. Now going above 30 can actually be too much - and there there is still a LOT of volume left since every "notch" in the volume control increases the volume significantly. I think I'll need to get that sound deadener installed sooner rather than later. :) You can also really tell how the system doesn't start rolling off the bass at upper volumes too - the bass just keeps coming on harder and harder!

Not to mention that it sounds *so* much better the whole time. :)

I love a powerful, great-sounding system! I think I'm going to go through the time-alignment wizard today and get that going next.
 

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Discussion Starter #104
Wow... I spent the whole 2 minutes to get measurements from my head to each of the 6 speakers and plugged them into the time alignment wizard in PefectTune. Made a great thing that much better! :) Freaking awesome....

I *still* haven't done any measurement-based tuning (been really hot here and don't want to sit in my car for too long without it running!) - but damn, I've never had such a great-sounding system in my car. It sounds great no matter how loud I play it and no matter what song I play. Just wow...

For anyone considering upgrading the Alpine 6-speaker "premium" system - don't wait a day longer. VERY happy with the JL Audio XD600/6v2 amp - yes, it was a little expensive, but damn does it sound good. The Rockford Fosgate DSR1 is a no-brainer for the $250 price tag. We're definitely lucky to have a car that the DSR1 has a T-harness and system-integration features for (as of right now, the DSR1 doesn't support any Chevys, for example) - take advantage of it!

Also - I saw on one of the Five Star Car Stereo videos that they had a beta version of the DSR1 that works for non-premium systems too (so no stock amp needed) - so it wont be long where the DSR1 will work for base-level Challengers as well - in full "integration" mode (not just in "generic" mode).

Having complete control over every speaker will allow you get things "just right". If you love loud, great-sounding audio, the RF DSR1/JL Audio XD600/6v2 combination is going to be tough to beat for the price. I'm already in heaven and it's going to get even better as I tune it more and more, sound-deaden the doors/rear-deck and add a sub. Hard to believe how much better it can get, but I'm sure it can. :) I've only scratched the surface so far.
 

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Great to "hear" you are experiencing how these things make an improvement. Now, if you adjust speaker volume based on the inverse square calculation to get equal sound, you can see how you can move the stereo image around the stage. I think you have me sold on the DSR1.
 

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Discussion Starter #106
Yeah - I mean since the DSR1 is probably the best way to get the source signal anyway, you might as well see if it's DSP functionality will meet your needs too - before spending more money on different DSP processors.

Just like anything else, there will be pros and cons. Probably the biggest difference is that the DSR1 only works with mobile devices (which is a "PRO" to me, but may be a "CON" to someone else). I'm not familair with the mini-DSP equipment, but I have a feeling that the DSR1 DSP functions will probably be a little more "basic" than a dedicated DSP system, but all of the "common" stuff will be there. For eample, the DSR1 doesn't have any crossover "type" options - just Linkwitz-Riley - whereas other DSP systems may have other crossover types to choose from - but from what I've seen, Linkwitz-Riley is the most commonly-used one anyway. Stuff like that...
 

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Discussion Starter #107
@Iamstubb - So as I prepare to start trying to tune my system the "scientific" way (as opposed to "by ear"), I had some questions about how I should do some items. As you know, right now, all tuning has been done by ear (except for time alignment settings) - and while it already sounds fantastic, I'm sure that it can get even better.

However, as I do more and more research (and see so much conflicting info!), I wanted to see if you could help me with a few questions.

1. Target curves. Where can I find these? Any recommendations? The Android "Audio Tool" app can load/save target curves, but not sure if there is a "standard" format for these or not - or even where to find them. I keep seeing that most of the target curves have treble areas (10k+) reduced quite a bit - anywhere from -3db to -10db - which seems strange to me since I actually increase the treble significantly! But maybe this is where #4 comes into play with the a- and c-weighting?

2. Left/Right volumes. I know you provided a link for the "Inverse Square Law" calculator, but couldn't I just play pink noise from left and right speakers individually and then use the SPL readings from Audio Tool for each speaker in order to get them to match (via the channel trim controls in PerfectTune)? I'm assuming this would work for all speakers (tweeters, midbass and rear-deck full-range).

3. Level-matching (midbass/tweeters). Should I just play a sine-wave at around the crossover point to each speaker and then make the volume match using the SPL level reported by Audio Tool?

4. Frequency EQ'ing. When using RTA to get all frequencies "flat" for a starting point, should I use A-weighted, C-weighted or "Flat"?

Maybe you didn't need to do any of this since you used REW... I'm really trying to avoid digging out an old Windows laptop if possible. :) I use Chromebooks and Android devices for everything nowadays. I do have a few Windows laptops laying around if absolutely needed though.

I would just rather "get close" using the basic Audio Tool functions and then tune-by-ear for preference from there. I also think that I'll learn a lot more doing things "manually".

Thanks again for all of your help along the way!!
 

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1. DIY mobile audio has some threads-here is one with known house curves posted. You can load into REW or plot it out in Excel to see what you are going for.

2. You could do that, or just plug the distance numbers into the tool and get the volume numbers you need. As an example, I think my right dah speaker needs to be increased 2.3 dB to provide equal sound between the left and right. Did it with the calculator, but yes, you can do it with a mick and pink noise.-I'm a scientist by trade so I like to work with numbers and math...

3. Level matching can be done with the speaker as a whole-so use pink noise-this is for setting the dynamic range and is done by setting the speakers individually to be matched at 75dB with your SPKL meter. It is not a crossover calibration.

4. There is no reason to get to a "flat" first, unless you are messing around with comparisons. My curve that showed you is unweighted, which is why it is so heavy in the bass. A-weighting that curve would reduce the bass considerably. A-weighting is to compensate for the perceived loudness by the human ear, and the C-weighting in more neutral and is what SPL meters use. Here is a direct comparison.

Audio Tools should work for hand tuning. Just calibrate it before. Winders/JAVA is nothing to be afraid of though. The advantage there is being able to program filters and you are not constrained to what bands and filter types are built in-it is completely programmable. But I don't think using the DSR1 takes programmed filters and you will just be moving your 24 bands to approximate your target. In my case, the Infinity 3.5's have an annoying 1-2k peak with a notch that I could specifically target and make things sound better. With DSR1, I would have to adjust the whole range encompassed by the band. In reality I am probably the only person that noticed it though!
 

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Discussion Starter #109
Thanks - I really do apprecaite all of the info!

The reason that I mentioned a sine wave near the crossover frequency for level matching the door and dash speakers was becuase I thought that maybe the level readings would be very different with pink noise because of the crossovers. I mean each speaker will be playing completely different parts of the frequency scale - so I wasn't sure if that would work out properly or not when trying to match the levels - whereas paying a sine wave near the crossover frequency will basically be playing the same frequency on both speakers. But I guess it doesn't work like that? Like I said, there is so much info out there and so much of it conflicts.

The more that I think about this, I'm a little conflicted now about setting everything up to be 'perfect" from the drivers seat - I'm just not so sure I really want to tune things for a "single seat". I mean yes, it will sound great for me, but then it will sound like complete crap for the person in the passenger seat... I'm now wondering if maybe I should just setup the time alignment from the center of the front row (between driver and passenger seat) so that it sounds equally good for both front passengers (but not as "perfect" as it could be for the driver only) - and leaving L/R volume levels the same so that it too is "equal" for both driver and passenger. Any thoughts on tuning for both front passengers? I know it won't be "perfect" for anyone that way, but I think I'm willing to live with the compromise here... Does anybody actually do this??

I mean I want a great sounding system, but not to the point where it sounds perfect for the driver, but sounds terrible for the passenger. What are your thoughts on that? Time alignment would still help getting the sound from all speakers to the "front row" at the same time (front to back), but not left/right...

I'm also not yet sure about the whole "target curve" thing (need to research more), which is why I was just looking to start with a "flat" system and then just adjust for preference from there. I want to account for issues caused by the car interior, reflections, etc - and then adjust for preference from there. If I do it that way, should I use any "weighting" when I initially work on getting it "flat"? That's what I'm not real clear about - whether I should work to get it "flat" or "flat - c-weighted" to start with, for example....

I definitely think that we're on two different levels in terms of how "scientific" we want to get with the tuning. I think I'm at a much more "basic" level at this point - and I'm just looking to get things to a decent somwhat-close "baseline" and then adjust for preference from there by ear ("learning by doing" along the way) - whereas you are more into the more advanced "scientific" measurement aspect of tuning. :)

I'm already to the point where I'm having a hard time messing with the tuning at all because it sounds so damn good as-is. :) But I'm sure it can get even better. It's just amazing how every song that I play sounds so damn good right now - whether it be from a "local" USB thumb drive or via Android Auto - while also having the volume level that I always wanted (which was my main driver initially - to get a system with more volume!). WIth the stock system, there were big volume differences between thumb drive audio and Android Auto, for example - whereas all sources seem much closer now - and every source can get way louder than I actually need now (was NOT the case befoe!). :)
 

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I've decided I won't ever add an amp...you need a PhD in tuning :)

A Guy
 

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Discussion Starter #111
I've decided I won't ever add an amp...you need a PhD in tuning :)

A Guy
Not really. Don't let these conversations sway you! I don't HAVE to do any of this. I could have just installed the amp and used the same "Bass/Mid/Treble" controls if I wanted to. I'm just trying to squeeze more and more sound quality out of the system using the DSP settings in the DSR1. But honestly, if you listen to your radio at a volume of 38 all of the time, you would LOVE the results of adding an amp. I too found that volume was lacking with the 6-speaker amp'd alpine system, which was my main reason for updating - and that problem is absolutely, 100% SOLVED! I have more volume now than I and the cars interior can handle. :) All of the tuning stuff is just "extra" - but even without it, the system sounds SO much better and gets SO much louder.

Trust me - based on what you've stated previously - you're probably the perfect candidate for an amp! You can also always just pay someone to do the tuning once and be done with it - professionals could have this thing tuned in an hour or less. I just like messing with this stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #112
I think the next step for me is to install an under-the-seat subwoofer. I am NOT at all interested in putting a sub in the trunk with a separte amp, etc. I just want something to help with the bottom-end a little. Suprisingly, the Infinity Reference 6"x9" speakers in the doors are doing a damn good job on their own, but I'd like to take a little of the "load" off of them for the deeper bass - as well as provide some of the deeper bass that they are unable to provide at all.

Right now I'm leaning towards a JBL BassPro SL - mainly becuase it's physically smaller than most of the others and should fit well under the seat. It's just an 8" shallow-profile woofer with a 125W RMS amp built in. Even though it's much lower wattage than most subs you put in the trunk, we have to remember that the sub is going to be right next to you (or right underneath you) - in the interior of the car - so it doesn't need to play as "loud" as a subwoofer that lives in the trunk - where the rear seat is between you and the sub - at least that is my theory. :)

Again, these things are NOT for "bass-heads" - they are more for someone looking to add some accurate low-end bass to a system to compliment an otherwise great system. They are more about adding to sound quality than quantity. :) They are NOT going to go as "low" as a real sub in the trunk, but I think it will compliment my current system well. I have a 50W RMS (!) under-the-seat sub in my Impala - and it does a pretty damn good job. That one is a Pioneer that doesn't use a convention speaker cone (it's a Pioneer TS-WH500A if anyone is interested). I'm just thinking that one with a little more power and a conventional speaker cone will probably be better for my current system in the Challenger.
 

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Discussion Starter #113
One more interesting tidbit (if anyone is actually reading all of this crap!)... While tuning my system by ear, I had forgotten about the dash speakers being reverse-polarity from the factory. Since I ened up using the stock speaker wiring from where it used to connect to the stock amp out to both the dash and door speakers, the dash speakers were still reverse polarity. So when they are setup as normal polarity in the DSR-1, they are actually reverse-polarity and vice-versa! :)

I even tried reversing the polarity in the DSR-1 settings and retesting the polarity just to be 100% sure - and sure enough, they are definitely wired in reverse polarity from the factory (which also matches what I found before and what I see in the Chilton wiring diagrams). I then went a step further and tested the stock speakers with the "9-volt" trick to be 1000% percent sure and sure enough, the stock positive wire connects to the negative terminal on the stock speaker and the stock negative wire connects to the positive terminal on the stock speaker!! I actually have a spare set of the Metra speaker harness adapters, so I "reconfigured" them so positive goes to positive and negative goes to negative. This way the DSR-1 app will show the polarity correctly (once I install the "fixed" Metra speaker harness adapters).

What I've found is that the dash speakers make the system sound a lot better when in reverse polarity. It really "widens" the soundstange for whatever reason - which is probably why they are wired like that from the factory. Since the door and dash speakers don't play the same frequencies, having them reverse polarity doesn't cause any issues. If both the door and dash speakers played the same frequencies, I think they could/would "cancel" each other if wired oppisite from each other - but that is not the case. At least that is my understanding. :)

Way too hot to sit very long in a car that is not running today, but I also finally watched the frequency response of some speakers individually and together - and from what I saw, it looks pretty damn good for "By ear" tuning! I think there was a dip at around 2k that I may need to adjust for, but generally speaking, I was pretty impressed that it is so close.

I also decided that I'm going to setup two separate profiles in the DSR-1 - one tuned for the "drivers seat" and one tuned for the "front row". This way, if the wife and I are both going to be in the car for any significant length of time, I'll just load the "front row" profile. Otherwise, it will be in the "Drivers Seat" profile. Best of both worlds. One of the nice things about being able to adjust the DSR-1 settings from my phone (instead of needing a Windows device). :)
 

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To much good info but when you going to do mine lol

I hate how for some reason after I got a uconnect over the air update at 38 sounds like crap now was like a yr ago

But I would like to to upgrade mine but th o lazy lol

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #115
To much good info but when you going to do mine lol

I hate how for some reason after I got a uconnect over the air update at 38 sounds like crap now was like a yr ago

But I would like to to upgrade mine but th o lazy lol

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Not sure what system you have, but if you like great-sounding audio and listen to music often and like it loud, you will definitely not regret upgrading to an aftermarket amp with the DSR-1 (or some other DSP system). I'm not going to lie - it's a lot of work to install it correctly physically and a time consuming to tune it properly, but damn are the results soooo worth it.

If you don't want to be bothered with the physical install and/or tuning, you can always pay a shop to do it - but it won't be cheap. Hell, including the speakers, amp and DSR-1 - along with all of the "stuff" I had to buy for the install (wires, tools, etc), you're talking $1200+ just for the equipment. Paying someone to install and tune would probably be another $400+ (wild guess). So yeah, it's definitely an investment. :)
 

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I have the alpine not sure how many speaker's in total

I know 2 6x9 in the rear deck with a baby sub and small ones in the side for the rear those suck especially when turned up to much. Then the doors then the front dash

Yeah I know it's a investment, I had to add a sub cuz I needed more bass

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Some DSP's let you employ multiple tunes for passengers or driving alone-The latest miniDSP does that. It is a personal choice-If you drive folks around a lot doa center tune and make everyone happy. I drive solo on long trips quite often-so I went for a driver-optimized tune. It's fun as heck, but you are right to enjoy things for a while and tinker as you go along. There is no rush to get the perfect tune and you will probably end up with a better final result if you listen to and get to know how all these changes affect the sound.
 

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Discussion Starter #118
@Iamstubb - you mentioned that you used a trickle charger to keep your battery charged while tuning. Where do you connect the trickle charger - to the jump points under the hood or directly to the battery in the trunk? Since my amp are connected directly to the battery (pos and neg), I'm always afraid that connecting a charger to the battery will zap my amp or something. :) Probably overthinking it, but don't want to risk any damage to my amp...

I finally started doing real measurement-based tuning and I really need to find a way to keep the battery charged while doing it as I could be sitting there messing around for an hour or longer at a time since I'm learning as I go.

Thank you!
 

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@Iamstubb - you mentioned that you used a trickle charger to keep your battery charged while tuning. Where do you connect the trickle charger - to the jump points under the hood or directly to the battery in the trunk? Since my amp are connected directly to the battery (pos and neg), I'm always afraid that connecting a charger to the battery will zap my amp or something. :) Probably overthinking it, but don't want to risk any damage to my amp...

I finally started doing real measurement-based tuning and I really need to find a way to keep the battery charged while doing it as I could be sitting there messing around for an hour or longer at a time since I'm learning as I go.

Thank you!
It's OK to hook it up to the front hood connectors. Post some sweeps when you get a chance.
 

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Discussion Starter #120
It's OK to hook it up to the front hood connectors. Post some sweeps when you get a chance.
Thanks. I checked my battery level this morning with a battery tester and I had it down to 30%! So I charged it back up with a battery charger. I guess I could run my battery charger in 2-amp mode and leave it connected while tuning - and it will kick on and off as needed (shuts off automatically when battery is full)... Unless, of course, it causes any noise while charging.
 
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