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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I finally did the Timing Belt & Water Pump maintenance on my Challenger's 3.5L this last weekend, and while there's plenty of info out there on how to do it, I figured I'd create a thread on this nonetheless. At the very least, I can include the useful links I found when doing research on this and add in some extra notes/details I found out the hard way which weren't in other write-ups. So without further Mountain Dew, let's dive into this puppy!

First thing's first, you're going to want to get all your parts and tools together before you start. This is a 100K mile maintenance, so there can be quite a few things to change if you haven't already done any of them.

Main parts list:
- the Timing Belt
- the timing belt's hydraulic tensioner*
- the timing belt's tensioner pulley**
- Water Pump (and gasket)


Optional parts list:
- serpentine drive belt
- drive belt idler pulley
- drive belt tensioner pulley
(I have already replaced all these, so I just removed these parts and remounted them during this particular maintenance)


Optional fluids/adhesives/other list:
- Engine coolant (Zerex G-05) and distilled water***
- RTV sealant (gasket sealer)****
- a roll of paper towels (the good kind, not the el-cheapos!)
- some sheets of cardboard (a large box broken down should do it)


Tool list:
- 1/4" drive and 3/8" drive ratchets and matching sockets in metric sizes 10mm, 13mm, 15mm, 16mm, & 18mm
- Torx bits in sizes T30 and T40
- wrenches in same metric sizes as above (ratcheting wrenches are a plus here).
- torque wrenches in all 3 drive sizes (1/4", 3/8", & 1/2") and smaller extensions for each
- harmonic dampener puller and installer tool sets for Chrysler 3.5L engines*****.


That's pretty much everything you'll need to do this deal. Next, I will list out some of the threads and YouTube vids I used to gather my intel before starting.

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* - these rarely fail from what I understand, so replacement is optional; I opted NOT to replace mine this go-round.
** - these are usually the first part of the timing belt system to fail, so replace the pulley at the very least or the whole pulley and arm component if desired (what I did).
*** - just draining the radiator will yield 2 gallons of coolant/water mix, so if not reusing it, you'll need a gallon of 100% coolant and a gallon of distilled water (or 2 gallons 50/50 pre-mixed coolant).
**** - this is optional for the water pump gasket seal. The manual says to use it, but I found no other references to it, so it's up to you whether or not you want to use some.
***** - you can rent these from Autozone, OEM #27139 (puller) and OEM #27306 (installer)

(write-up continued in next post...)
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Useful Info from Others Threads & Vids


I will use this post for listing out some of the threads and YouTube videos I found useful while researching what all is involved to do this maintenance...


First up is a thread from this very forum (NOTE: its got a YouTube video link in it that leads to a series of 5 videos on this topic which are very useful!): http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f38/changed-timing-belt-p0016-code-502601/


Here is another YouTube video which is helpful to watch and take notes on:


And one more:


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I had some more links, but after reading through them, they didn't really provide anything above and beyond what the ones above do, so I'm leaving them out for now...



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(write-up continued in next post...)
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Chiltons Manual Maintenance Steps - Timing Belt


I am just going to paste in some screen shots of the Chiltons Manual I used while performing the work, and where necessary, I will reference those pics with any extra info I feel is necessary to note...



The purple circle around step 3 is to draw attention to the fact that I believe this step unnecessary. You can still move the cams as needed to get the timing marks lined up without going to all the trouble of pulling the plenum and valve covers to loosen the rocker arm assemblies.

The blue circle around step 5 is to point out that you will only be able to get to the three bolts holding the power steering pump to the timing cover by going THROUGH the power steering pump's pulley's holes with a 10mm socket and extension. You'll need to rotate the pulley as necessary to get to each bolt in turn, but once you figure it out, they'll come out pretty quick.

The orange and red circles in the picture references denote special bolt heads on the timing cover which will require Torx bits. The orange one will be a T30 and the red one will be a T40.

The yellow circle in the picture reference denotes a 16mm bolt which is behind the tensioner and can be used for harmonic dampener removal in later steps (if the OEM kit is not used).




The red curved lines around the cam and crank gears indicate the spots into which I recommend folding up some cardboard into small wedges to jam in between the timing belt and the inside of the cover in order to keep the belt from coming back off the gears (cam or crank) once placed onto them. One of the videos above shows a guy using flat head screw-drivers, and that will work too if you have several short ones. I did not, so I used long wedges of cardboard instead.


Now onto the Harmonic Dampener and how to get it off...giggity!



I could not get the OEM dampener puller to work (pulled it off almost all the way but then ran out of threads), so I had to use some standard 3-Jaw pullers like what you can buy at Harbor Freight. Actually, I only used one of that set, the smallest one, but I circled in blue all the pullers jaw orientation to make a point further down.




Here is the puller from that set I used, and if you noticed from the box picture, the jaws had their hooks facing outward from the factory. But in this pic, they are facing inward. This is how they will have to be if you are going to use them!! Luckily they are easily disassembled and reassembled in this configuration when required.


This is also where I used that 16mm bolt from behind the drive belt tensioner mentioned above. That bolt is too small to screw into the end of the crank, so I was able to use it as a base (by just jamming it into the crank once the main bolt was removed; see yellow arrow below) for the 3 jawed puller above to push against (circled in red above). And by pushing against that bolt and not the crank's threads, no damage was done to the crank end while using these pullers to extract the harmonic dampener.

Here's the relevant page from the manual:





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(write-up continued in next post...)
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Chiltons Manual Maintenance Steps - Water Pump



Here are the relevant pages from the manual regarding the water pump replacement:



You will notice all the colored circles in that pic above. Those represent the water pump bolts in their respective lengths. There are 3 different length bolts holding the water pump to the block, and you CANNOT mix them up when bolting the new pump back in place. They must ALL go back in their previous locations (according to length).

So however you want to keep track of them, figure out a way and do it!

But here's a legend just in case:

Powder blue - longest length bolts

Lime Green - middle length bolts

Pepto Pink - shortest length bolt


Now let's talk about the water pump's gasket...as you see below circled in Red, the book says to use some RTV sealant on the gasket before installation. I did this, using Versachem Type 2 gasket sealant, but I am not so sure it's necessary. This Chiltons manual is the only place I have found that states RTV should be used, so it's not a universal piece of advice. Ultimately, you'll probably be fine without it, but it's your call, so figure out what you want to do and do it!




FYI: here's the stuff I used -

gasket sealer.jpg


EDIT: After having done some more research on whether or not this product was the one the manual was talking about for the water pump gasket sealing, I can now say with certainty that this was the wrong product. The manual was referencing something else, not this one.

Now I have not experienced any negative consequences from its usage...yet...nor do I expect to have anything bad happen just because I used that kind over the other.

But I did want to go on record with the answer just in case there was any doubt - the kind above ain't what they recommend.


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(write-up continued in next post...)
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Torque Specs from Chiltons Manual

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Chiltons - Torque Specs 01.jpg

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Chiltons - Torque Specs 02.jpg

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Chiltons - Torque Specs 03.jpg

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Chiltons - Torque Specs 04.jpg


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(write-up continued in next post...)
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Leftovers and Final Notes



So here some things that I thought I should make note of, in no particular order (except the order they came out of my brain):

• OEM 27139 (puller) didn't work nor did OEM 27306 (installer); used an M12 x 3" bolt I had leftover from another project to install the dampener.

• No key on the balancer/crank, so ignore warnings about getting them lined up for installation.

• Engine rotational direction is clockwise (when standing in front of the car's front fascia/grill and looking at front of engine)

• Drive belt routing picture nowhere to be found – document yours before removal

Have roll of paper towels handy to soak up coolant spilling out of water pump holes

Put 2 sheets of cardboard in front of radiator to protect it from puncture and flattened fins

• Have compressed air handy to clear out dust and other debris from inside timing belt cover


Oh yeah, and one more thing I want to emphasize. I believe it was mentioned in one or two of those videos above, but it's worth saying again - you should advance both cams about one tooth to the right when installing the belt. This will ensure that they are pulled back into exact time when the tensioner is let loose and takes up all the slack.

For example, take a look at these pics of my timing marks the FIRST time I let the tensioner loose and was going to button everything up:

crankshaft timing mark 1st try.jpg

left cam timing mark 1st try.jpg

right cam timing mark 1st try.jpg

You may notice that they are all pretty danged closed to being on time. Well they were...until I pulled the pin on the tensioner, and then it tightened everything up, and both those cams ended up about a tooth or half-tooth retarded. So I had to pull the belt and tensioner and do it all over again!


The second time around though, I make sure to rotate both cams about 1/2 or 1 tooth to the right when installing the belt. That way the tensioner would put them right in time when it was let loose. And it for sure worked, because I buttoned everything back up and fired it up the first try!

Alright, that's it for now. Good luck, and may the schwartz be with you!!

Nuke, OUT!!

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P.S. if you want one of those M13 x 3" bolts I mentioned above that I used to install the dampener, PM me. I have 2 more extra ones that I will give away for free (or the cost of shipping it to you if you don't live in the D/FW Metroplex).

Installer Bolt.jpg

 

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I plan on doing this myself this weekend. Was that an M12 x 3” bolt or M13 x3”? You gave two different sizes for the bolt used to reinstall the balancer


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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #8
I plan on doing this myself this weekend. Was that an M12 x 3” bolt or M13 x3”? You gave two different sizes for the bolt used to reinstall the balancer


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Good catch, I see that discrepancy now. Not positive which is the correct size just from memory, I will need to check my notes and/or measure that bolt when I get home this evening so I can provide the right info.

Also, it looks like a whole bunch of the pics I had attached to the posts are now gone or the links are messed up. That’s disconcerting; not sure what’s up there, but I will try to fix those this evening as well.

Nuke
 

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Sweet. I plan on hopping on my own timing belt and water pump change this weekend. Challenger has 140k o it and I bought it just over 100k so I have no idea if it was ever done, and considering I’m starting to get a chirping noise from inside the timing belt cover (already replaced the tensioner assembled and idler pulley) I figure go ahead and do it. One video I found on YouTube had the same sound coming from it on his sxt (mines an se) and turned out it was the water pump seal(gasket) was going bad and causing the whistle inside.


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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #10
Sweet. I plan on hopping on my own timing belt and water pump change this weekend. Challenger has 140k o it and I bought it just over 100k so I have no idea if it was ever done, and considering I’m starting to get a chirping noise from inside the timing belt cover (already replaced the tensioner assembled and idler pulley) I figure go ahead and do it. One video I found on YouTube had the same sound coming from it on his sxt (mines an se) and turned out it was the water pump seal(gasket) was going bad and causing the whistle inside.


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It’s entirely possible that timing belt has never been changed, in which case you’ll want to do it as soon as possible to make sure it doesn’t go and lunch the motor.

Actually, from what I’ve read, the belt itself isn’t the part that gives up most often in there. It’s the timing belt tensioner pulley which will usually go first and hose everything up. Either way, once you’re in there, might as well do it all, so that’s why the belt, pulley, water pump etc. are all on the list to change at once.

Not sure on that whistling noise, but I would err on the side of caution and assume it’s the water pump. Best to change it out now before it gives up and overheats everything, right?
 

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Exactly. And considering it’s 180 for everything that’s less than a new engine I’d rather just do it and be done with it. If the chirping doesn’t stop then it’s something else but at least I’ll have ruled that out and won’t have to worry bout the pump or the timing belt for another 100k


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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #12
I am pretty sure this bolt is a M12 x 1.75 and it’s approximately 4.25” long or about 10.5 centimeters.

If you want one, PM me an address to which I can ship one, and it’s yours...for free.

I’ve got four of them, I won’t miss it, I promise. if it goes away on a trip to your garage and stays there, the other 3 will suffice I’m sure.
 

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3.5L Timing Belt & Water Pump Replacement

Since I’m doin my timing belt tomorrow, would be a bit of a problem getting it to florida in that short a time lol. I’ll see if I can find one at a parts or hardware store tomorrow before I begin tearing it apart


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Good thing I did the timing belt and water pump replacement. The timing belt tensioner pulley had failed. It already was dumping the ball bearings in the bottom of the crankcase. So I changed it just in time.


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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #15
Since I’m doin my timing belt tomorrow, would be a bit of a problem getting it to florida in that short a time lol. I’ll see if I can find one at a parts or hardware store tomorrow before I begin tearing it apart
Too late, I shipped it out yesterday, so it's on its way.

Although, in all honesty, I would be shocked if you actually received it...I didn't have a name or address, so I just had to guess...

I figured if I could at least get it to the state, someone in one of the Post Offices might recognize you (you know, from your mugshot on the wall :icon_lol:) and be able to route it to the correct address for me. But in hindsight, I think I might have needed more specific details or something:

Mr. Chally Driver c/o Any Mopar Fan
2010 Dodge Rd (by the ocean)
Humidityville, FL
zipcode? we don't need no stinking zipcodes!


What do you think, does any of that apply to you enough that the post office would piece together it was meant for you?? :D


Good thing I did the timing belt and water pump replacement. The timing belt tensioner pulley had failed. It already was dumping the ball bearings in the bottom of the crankcase. So I changed it just in time.
Good deal, that's why I logged in just now - to see if you posted an update with the outcome of the venture. The fact that the tensioner pulley had given up the ghost already but hadn't yet completely futzed the belt's rotation and alignment is a minor miracle! Maybe not, maybe the parts are designed to fail in such a fashion...whatever, it doesn't matter.

The bottom line is you got every single last mile of use out of yours, and then still managed to get it replaced without your valves introducing themselves to the pistons and starting a bar brawl in the combustion chamber! That's pretty danged good!! :respect::bigthumb:

You should give Charlie Sheen a call and tell him he can relax, his services are no longer needed - you will be doing the WINNING! from here on out...:banger: :thumbsup:


I did have a couple questions though:

- Any problems to speak of with the harmonic dampener removal/installation?
If not, how did you ensure success where others failed so miserably?
(If you were able to find the necessary and correct tool kits before you started, be sure to post up the kit names/part #s for others' benefit that run across this in the future while researching their own timing belt maintenance.)

- Any suggestions or tips you think would benefit someone else doing this before they started in on their car?
I can update my thread with any hints, tips, tricks you want to add...or you can put them down here and just draw attention to them so future readers can't miss them.

- What did you do, if anything, about the coolant system?
If you have not ever changed the coolant in it, it's a good bet the previous owner(s) didn't either. Which means the stuff you drained out was well past its service life most likely. And when that HOAT stuff gets old, it gets funky...turns into globs of goop and sand-like particles...nothing you want in your coolant system, that's for sure. If you noticed any of that while you had the car opened up, I would strongly advise to drain the coolant again and do some sort of chemical flush on the system to try to clean it out. Those Preston bottles you buy at Wal-Mart for $5 won't do much to a badly neglected cooling system, you would have to bring more to bear on something with brown goop deposits where antifreeze used to be.

But I'll save the horror stories for later...no use in scaring you if your system wasn't in bad shape, right? :wink3:
Nuke
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #16
If pics are worth 1K words, I just added millions!

I finally got around to replacing/repairing all the broken and missing inline pics and picture attachments. So if you can now see pics in this thread but couldn't before, you have ME to thank for that!!

Well, me and @Ashiva...I did all the work, but technically I would't have known there was work to do if @Ashiva hadn't replied to the thread and got me to looking back through it after the picture issues started.

But still, if you are going to give someone money or beer as thanks, you should direct those items to me!

(And if you are still unconvinced to whom you should send your swag, check this out: I recently heard @Ashiva say he doesn't like beer and doesn't believe in the concept of money either, so your gifts would be wasted on him!! ;) )
 

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3.5L Timing Belt & Water Pump Replacement

I drained the entire cooling system and left the pep**** open to continue to release it all. I lined up the camshafts to TDC and didn’t worry about the actual crankshaft since it was so close to being tdc anyway (my father was an ASE certified mechanic for 30 years and said it’s more important to have the cams TDC) I cleaned and vacuumed out the entire timing belt area since there were ball bearings at the bottom and dust galore.

I recommend a soft bristle paint brush to brush the dust up and a shop vacuum to suck it dry.

I rented the Chrysler oem pulley that you couldn’t get to work right and had no trouble with it. I did have to take off two of the legs and manually put them on the balancer but otherwise it worked just fine with the longest shaft.

Putting it back on was easy with a couple half in washers and that m12 x 1.75 bolt I picked up that was around 100 mm. Also ended up using a socket that fit round it to help with pushing it back on till I could get the threads on the original bolt.

I also only tightened down the balancer to line up with the ac compressor pulley. I basically changed my coolant and had got prestone antifreeze. It’s green, but it’s HOAT and designed for Chrysler engines so if anything happens I still have the bottle of it sludges the engine.

After it’s said and done, my slight knock has gone away, and she seems to have more power sitting still (I thought it was a rough idle at first but it’s more like she gained torque, it’s like she wants to move). If you’ve ever sat in a vehicle with a souped up engine you know the feeling I mean. That low I wanna go rumble in the seats when sittin still.


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Oh and be prepared for bruises and blood. And being sore. And if you don’t have a torque wrench (mine is only inches and starts at 120) you can still get it done ok. Just don’t wrench down hard on the bolts and tight till snug but not till they stop (if you understand what I mean). The worst part for me on the whole thing was having to go rent the right puller (the one I originally rented was too long)

Oh and I think you can do everything just fine without removing the bolts on the power steering. They don’t seem to be attached in any way that hinders the removal of the timing cover.


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