Dodge Challenger Forum banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of September's Ride of the Month Challenge!
1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Premium Member
2019 Challenger R/T Scatpack A8 Cammed
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey y’all this is my first post, I want to first off thank everyone on here even though this is my first post I have read many of threads on here that have helped me analyze and diagnose my issues in the past........That being said I’ve got one that I can’t figure out & I need help with. Byron at MMX even said he’s never seen or heard it before.

2019 5.7 R/T W/STP
I just installed a MMX Chopstix cam kit, lifters, 1511 springs, 0.80 Wall pushrods, MDS delete. And it’s making a horrible wrapping/knocking sound at startup and after 30secs it’ll go away for 20-30secs and come back but it’s just for a few secs. If I hit the gas it’ll immediately stop and go away. It acts and sounds like parts not getting oiled but I’m getting 53-57psi at idle. I’ve stripped it down and double checked all my timing marks, 12 & 6 o’clock with keyhole pointing at 2 o'clock. Cam/phaser sprocket mark in the middle of the two marked links on timing chain and the single link with a mark directly over the crankshaft sprocket. I have gotten code P0016 but not consistently. I’ve done countless number of cam swaps but I need help figuring this one out.
I’ll try to upload a clip of it on here.
New video by Paul Michael Valenzuela
 

·
Registered
2010 R/T Classic 6M
Joined
·
1,280 Posts
May sound like a dumb question, but there's good tension on the timing chain?
 

·
Registered
2012 Dodge Challenger R/T Classic
Joined
·
141 Posts
Hey y’all this is my first post, I want to first off thank everyone on here even though this is my first post I have read many of threads on here that have helped me analyze and diagnose my issues in the past........That being said I’ve got one that I can’t figure out & I need help with. Byron at MMX even said he’s never seen or heard it before.

2019 5.7 R/T W/STP
I just installed a MMX Chopstix cam kit, lifters, 1511 springs, 0.80 Wall pushrods, MDS delete. And it’s making a horrible wrapping/knocking sound at startup and after 30secs it’ll go away for 20-30secs and come back but it’s just for a few secs. If I hit the gas it’ll immediately stop and go away. It acts and sounds like parts not getting oiled but I’m getting 53-57psi at idle. I’ve stripped it down and double checked all my timing marks, 12 & 6 o’clock with keyhole pointing at 2 o'clock. Cam/phaser sprocket mark in the middle of the two marked links on timing chain and the single link with a mark directly over the crankshaft sprocket. I have gotten code P0016 but not consistently. I’ve done countless number of cam swaps but I need help figuring this one out.
I’ll try to upload a clip of it on here.
New video by Paul Michael Valenzuela
Yikers. Having not yet done my swap, I’m no expert yet, and I don’t know a thing about the Chopstix cam, but assuming you’ve got the correct parts installed correctly springs/heights, lifters, rods in their cups, sprockets correct, tensioner correct...was there something that needed to be done to the phaser with that cam? Maybe that’s the place to start if the sound changes according to throttle.
Keep us posted, and good luck.
j
 

·
Registered
2015 Challenger RT
Joined
·
23 Posts
Check to see if there is an exhaust leak. My Ford had one( mating surface of the manifold and head) and it sounded horrible for the first 30 seconds, until the gasket heated up and expanded to fill the gap. Worth a shot 🤔🤞
 

·
Registered
2016 Challenger R/T Plus Shaker
Joined
·
671 Posts
Oil to lifters comes to the lifters from the rocker shafts, through the rocker arms and DOWN through the pushrods to pump up the lifters. This is because of the oil galleys being used for the MDS system, and is "backwards" from all other Mopar V8 engine. This makes it take a while to get new lifters pumped up, so lifters can be noisy for several minutes. When I change lifters in a modern Hemi, I put them in a pan of oil for a while. After start up, I rev the engine (after warming the engine up) to about 3,000 RPMs for about a minute. If necessary, I repeat this three or four times. This usually quietens lifter noise down, and is based on a STAR case recommendation. If your noise is valve train related this may help. From your post, it reads like you have really checked over your installation. I hope this helps.
 

·
Registered
2012 Dodge Challenger R/T Classic
Joined
·
141 Posts
Oil to lifters comes to the lifters from the rocker shafts, through the rocker arms and DOWN through the pushrods to pump up the lifters. This is because of the oil galleys being used for the MDS system, and is "backwards" from all other Mopar V8 engine. This makes it take a while to get new lifters pumped up, so lifters can be noisy for several minutes. When I change lifters in a modern Hemi, I put them in a pan of oil for a while. After start up, I rev the engine (after warming the engine up) to about 3,000 RPMs for about a minute. If necessary, I repeat this three or four times. This usually quietens lifter noise down, and is based on a STAR case recommendation. If your noise is valve train related this may help. From your post, it reads like you have really checked over your installation. I hope this helps.
Let’s hope you are exactly right and the phaser (b/c of the lock installation if required for this cam) is not advancing the cam timing too far at idle. Obviously oil pressure goes up with rpm, so starved lifters makes a hell of a lot of sense.
j
 

·
Registered
2016 Challenger R/T Plus Shaker
Joined
·
671 Posts
The actual STAR case calls for running the engine at 2,000 - 3,000 RPMs for three to five minutes, but I have had good results using the speed and time I noted above. I have seen modern Hemis run for a long time (relatively speaking) without pumping up the lifters, and the sound is awful.
 

·
Registered
2012 Dodge Challenger R/T Classic
Joined
·
141 Posts
The actual STAR case calls for running the engine at 2,000 - 3,000 RPMs for three to five minutes, but I have had good results using the speed and time I noted above. I have seen modern Hemis run for a long time (relatively speaking) without pumping up the lifters, and the sound is awful.
That’s the part that makes me nervous — listening to that racket while the engine warms up enough to start revving. Do you also attempt to drain whatever machining oil might be in there before you soak them?
 

·
Premium Member
2019 Challenger R/T Scatpack A8 Cammed
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
May sound like a dumb question, but there's good tension on the timing chain?
Yes there is

Yes it requires a phase limiter and I used the one from MMX and installed it according to specs. I have went thru all the valleys even in my rocker arms themselves to validate oil can pass thru them. I even pulled the valve cover off and ran it so I could physically SEE if oil was flowing and it is, oil was pumping thru every port and slightly slinging everywhere. I haven’t gotten a stethoscope out yet but I’m about too. The consfising part is how it stops immediately under any kind of load and it runs and idles fine. I did sol the lifters before install but not for very long. I underestimated how much oil they needed. I have not let it run for more then 5-7mins at a time. That noise scared me. Do you think I should let it run longer?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
17,238 Posts
I wonder is there's something (debris) that's causing oil starvation in the lifter galleries.

that is a racket and definitely not normal
 

·
Premium Member
2019 Challenger R/T Scatpack A8 Cammed
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I wonder is there's something (debris) that's causing oil starvation in the lifter galleries.

that is a racket and definitely not normal
I’ve pulled everything off and checked and blew thru it, I have not taken the springs off but I didn’t see how they would affect oil flow. But I agree it sounds like oil restriction, and goes away when rpms go up due to more pressure.
 

·
Registered
2016 Challenger R/T Plus Shaker
Joined
·
671 Posts
In reply to post #8, I don't try to clean the oil out of the lifters that is on them from the factory. I do make sure that the lifters are clean, and soaking in clean oil. I have seen a modern Hemi run for about half an hour without quietening down, only to run with normal (for a modern Hemi) noise levels the next day. It was one that another technician had replaced a cam and lifters (what we call a "cop car kit") in, and when it refused to quieten down he decided to try it the next day. It was quiet, and why sitting overnight helped, I never gave any thought to. I will admit that I am not a fan of the oiling system design in the modern Hemi, but it seems to work ok in stock engines.
 

·
Premium Member
2019 Challenger R/T Scatpack A8 Cammed
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
In reply to post #8, I don't try to clean the oil out of the lifters that is on them from the factory. I do make sure that the lifters are clean, and soaking in clean oil. I have seen a modern Hemi run for about half an hour without quietening down, only to run with normal (for a modern Hemi) noise levels the next day. It was one that another technician had replaced a cam and lifters (what we call a "cop car kit") in, and when it refused to quieten down he decided to try it the next day. It was quiet, and why sitting overnight helped, I never gave any thought to. I will admit that I am not a fan of the oiling system design in the modern Hemi, but it seems to work ok in stock engines.
Funny you should say that bc the next day I fired my car up the noise was gone after 2-3 secs but would come back sporadically ....... I’ve owned quite a few Hemi & LS platform engines and I know they can be noisy too after a cam swap so I was expecting an increase of valve train noise (on top of the normal Hemi tick) but freaked out when it was a noise I hadn’t heard with the behavior it was having. When you mentioned cleaning out the oiling system I went back thru every process I had taken and the one thing I didn’t do was blow out every pushrod sooooo that’s what I’m currently doing. I’m almost certain it’s an oiling issue, it’s the most logical theory at least. I’ll keep ya posted.
 

·
Registered
2016 Challenger R/T Plus Shaker
Joined
·
671 Posts
Good idea, verifying that oil an get through the pushrods. If they aren't blued at the tips, they were getting oil. Also, check the rocker shaft mounting points, if there is not a solid, leak free mount at each rocker stand, oil pressure can be lost. The "blocks" on top of the rocker shafts that the rocker shaft bolts go into are held on with a clip that goes through the shaft that sometimes causes a small leak between the shaft and stand.
 

·
Premium Member
2019 Challenger R/T Scatpack A8 Cammed
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Good idea, verifying that oil an get through the pushrods. If they aren't blued at the tips, they were getting oil. Also, check the rocker shaft mounting points, if there is not a solid, leak free mount at each rocker stand, oil pressure can be lost. The "blocks" on top of the rocker shafts that the rocker shaft bolts go into are held on with a clip that goes through the shaft that sometimes causes a small leak between the shaft and stand.
[/QUOTE
Well one of those clips was gone, going to get more clips. I’m probably going to pull the heads off. I was trying to avoid that but seems almost unavoidable. Besides gives me a reason to buy some new LT headers and take off these SRT manifolds lol
 

·
Registered
2016 Challenger R/T Plus Shaker
Joined
·
671 Posts
If you take the shafts off, you can look at how the clips go through the shaft to retain the "blocks". One STAR case detailed how the clips could bend an d thus prevent the rocker shaft from seating properly on the stand. I would want the clips in place, but watch for the clip bending. The clip is an assembly aid, but I think it also helps keep oil from being pumped out of the top of the shaft around the blocks.
 

·
Premium Member
2011 R/T 6M Bright White, 590whp 490wtq, Whipple 10psi, 274 cam, 1 7/8 LT headers, 429 gears
Joined
·
1,295 Posts
If you take the shafts off, you can look at how the clips go through the shaft to retain the "blocks". One STAR case detailed how the clips could bend an d thus prevent the rocker shaft from seating properly on the stand. I would want the clips in place, but watch for the clip bending. The clip is an assembly aid, but I think it also helps keep oil from being pumped out of the top of the shaft around the blocks.
Another thing you need to be careful of is seating the pushrods in the rockers. Can be a little tricky with the Hemi. It can look like its seated good but could actually not be seated properly. They actually have a special tool to hold the pushrods in place. I personally can't imagine doing it without the tool. So as a suggestion double check the rockers and make sure none of the pushrods were damaged. One last thought, did you measure the pushrods?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
2019 Challenger R/T Scatpack A8 Cammed
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Another thing you need to be careful of is seating the pushrods in the rockers. Can be a little tricky with the Hemi. It can look like its seated good but could actually not be seated properly. They actually have a special tool to hold the pushrods in place. I personally can't imagine doing it without the tool. So as a suggestion double check the rockers and make sure none of the pushrods were damaged. One last thought, did you measure the pushrods?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Good advice and yes I’ve had a pushrod or two look like it was seated in the lifter or in the rocker arm and it not be seated. Pushrod length........yes sir about 4x now. Lol “measure twice cut once” I measured before I ordered and after I heard the noise.

If you take the shafts off, you can look at how the clips go through the shaft to retain the "blocks". One STAR case detailed how the clips could bend an d thus prevent the rocker shaft from seating properly on the stand. I would want the clips in place, but watch for the clip bending. The clip is an assembly aid, but I think it also helps keep oil from being pumped out of the top of the shaft around the blocks.
To be certain I’ve got the correct part pertaining to blocks.....it’s the like 1/4 circle retainer like block that hold the bolt and sits on top of the shaft?
Also as I was sitting here trying to think of what was different now then just last week pertaining to oil flow itself. Head gaskets.....the head gaskets I had originally ordered were damaged so I ran up to the local auto part store and got what they had Fel Pro MLS........I was just comparing the two side by side and the oil duct hole is much smaller on the Fel-Pro then Mopar.
Iron Metal Tool Circle Steel
Iron Metal Circle Tool Steel
 

·
Premium Member
2011 R/T 6M Bright White, 590whp 490wtq, Whipple 10psi, 274 cam, 1 7/8 LT headers, 429 gears
Joined
·
1,295 Posts
Good advice and yes I’ve had a pushrod or two look like it was seated in the lifter or in the rocker arm and it not be seated. Pushrod length........yes sir about 4x now. Lol “measure twice cut once” I measured before I ordered and after I heard the noise.
I almost hated to ask, but there are those that just throw things together without checking. I do all of the measrements to make sure everything is within spec. So much easier to correct things before something blows up. Anyway I was going to ask about the cam end play lifter bore clearnace but it sounds like you are on it.

Not sure if it's been mentioned did you check for a collapsed lifter?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
2016 Challenger R/T Plus Shaker
Joined
·
671 Posts
Sounds like you have the same blocks in mind that I am referring to. I have no experience with the FelPro gaskets, since I work in a dealership and so always use the Mopar gaskets.
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top