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Discussion Starter #1
So last week the usual 'Hemi Tick' suddenly got loud....shut it down and took to shop.

i tore it down to block and found that #4 cylinder has a lifter fail and it took out the cam as well. All well and good, as it is no the first engine I have seen like this, on the upside when it came apart it still had good oil pressure, and the oil did not look like a 70s metal flake paint job.

But being my first Hemi build, I do have some questions

The insulation under the intake in the "valley" does it have to be there? Or can I just eliminate it?

I am getting rid of MDS (I feel like it may have led to this issue) I am doing non MDS lifters. If I turn MDS off in the tuner, will that be enough to not get a code on startup/run?

For the MDS harness will be be OK to just ziptie it up out of the way? or should I find a way to seal the connectors as well?

Going back with a stock cam as I am not 100% sure I want a off the shelf cam, as well as the added cost of cam/phaser limiter, more custom tuning.

Heads were good so I just sent them to machine shop for cleaning and new valve seals.

For flushing the engine i was going to pull and clean out oil pump, and flush pan with solvent, and then do 1 or 2 quick oil changes once it is running.

For parts I picked Manton pushrods and Johnson lifters over the factory replacements. though everything else is going to be stock for the time being.

What else should I look out for?
 

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MDS lifters are becoming notorious for problems. I decided to bite the bullet on my '15 SRT and bag the MDS, go new N/A 426 stroker with all forged internals, custom grind cam, alum. heads, thin piston ring packs & roller rockers. Still in the build phase but expecting a reliable street and track engine. Also adding new torque converter for the A8, headers and cat delete.
 

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I know you report the oil pressure was good before you tore the engine down, but I was taught to replace the oil pump when rebuilding an engine or in this case if the engine had suffered some internal problem that put metal debris in the oil. The concern is the oil pump may have suffered some wear of the housing and the clearances between the pump gear ends (mainly) and the housing is larger which can affect oil pressure/supply.


Be sure the oil pick up tube, its screen, all the pan oil baffles are clean and in good condition.


If fitted be sure all piston oil jets are free of any obstruction or free of any debris that could turn into an obstruction when you fire up the engine again.


Really, you want to be sure all oil passages are clean of any debris. Not only any debris from the bad lifter/cam lobe but maybe debris left in the engine at manufacturing. The concern is had the engine been left alone the odds are this debris would have remained where it is forever. But now the engine's been disturbed this might be sufficient to dislodge the debris and it could block off a piston oil jet, an bearing oil hole, even a lifter oil hole.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I am pulling, disassembling and inspecting the oil pump and pickup/screen and replacing if needed. I have done a ton of different engines this is just my first dodge.
 

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I am pulling, disassembling and inspecting the oil pump and pickup/screen and replacing if needed. I have done a ton of different engines this is just my first dodge.
Sorry to hear about the lifter failure. What year was your car and how many miles did you have on it if you don't mind sharing?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
For clarification, I have the engine torn down to shortblock, and flushing the pan with mineral spirits, pulling disassembling oil pump for inspection, as well as pickup and screen.

as long as the cam bearings and oil pump is in good condition, I will flush it through with 2 oil changes in quick succession before the good oil goes back in...filter change each time.

Should be a fun weekend/week
 

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I'm a little confused. Was the lifter "flat" and just not pumping up, or was the lifter ground up (I thought roller lifters prevented this type of failure?).

Mine is a 2011 SRT A5 as well, but only at 12K miles. I've had MDS turned off in the tuner since 2012.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Apparently the lifter failed and was not rolling. This destroyed that lifter and one lobe on the cam. Roller lifters can fail just as spectacularly as flat tappet. I have no idea what the exact cause of this failure to be, but being that it was one of the MDS lifters on one of the MDS cylinders, that might do it
 

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Apparently the lifter failed and was not rolling. This destroyed that lifter and one lobe on the cam. Roller lifters can fail just as spectacularly as flat tappet. I have no idea what the exact cause of this failure to be, but being that it was one of the MDS lifters on one of the MDS cylinders, that might do it
That seems to be the common thing with roller lifters is the roller bearing fails and grinds away the cam's lobe.

Its the same design used between the 5.7 and 6.4 - I checked and there's different part # listings between the two engines.

One thing is the 6.4 probably has a higher rate spring - as the cam profile is higher lift than the 5.7 plus the engine redline is higher as well between the two engines.

Given there's millions of 5.7s and a lot of 6.4s out there, not a common thing to happen, but there have been a couple of instances in recent years mentioned on this forum.

Like your circumstance, you noted an unusual sound that got louder and addressed it.

I've seen old engines (pre 80s) that had noisy valve trains and had the cam lobes wiped due to lubricants that didn't have enough zinc / ZDDP to prevent lobe wear.
 

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Also - the insulation pad is probably to keep engine heat away from the composite intake manifold.

The 5.7s also have this insulation pad as well
 

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That seems to be the common thing with roller lifters is the roller bearing fails and grinds away the cam's lobe.

Its the same design used between the 5.7 and 6.4 - I checked and there's different part # listings between the two engines.

One thing is the 6.4 probably has a higher rate spring - as the cam profile is higher lift than the 5.7 plus the engine redline is higher as well between the two engines.

Given there's millions of 5.7s and a lot of 6.4s out there, not a common thing to happen, but there have been a couple of instances in recent years mentioned on this forum.

Like your circumstance, you noted an unusual sound that got louder and addressed it.

I've seen old engines (pre 80s) that had noisy valve trains and had the cam lobes wiped due to lubricants that didn't have enough zinc / ZDDP to prevent lobe wear.

It seems to be a common problem with high mileage HEMI engines (talking 100,000+ miles). Does seem to affect more Rams than Challengers but I believe that is due to Rams being driven more miles altogether since they are bought and used as work horses. Theres a long thread on one of the Ram forums and also a couple of videos on youtube from people that experienced the HEMI lifter failure around the 100,000 mile mark. Unfortunately Dodge has not acknowledged or addressed the issue.
 

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the Chevy LS engines also use roller lifters - its a common occurrence to have the needle bearings fail in the lifters and damage the cam as well.

Its one of those things to pay attention to and if the valve train gets noisier, probably investigate it before it gets worse.

There's tiny needle bearings in these things and think about the millions of revolutions under 150-180# of spring pressure (stock springs) that they run under. Wear will happen.

If the plating isn't done right or not of appropriate hardness, they're going to wear and fail.
 

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It seems to be a common problem with high mileage HEMI engines (talking 100,000+ miles). Does seem to affect more Rams than Challengers but I believe that is due to Rams being driven more miles altogether since they are bought and used as work horses. Theres a long thread on one of the Ram forums and also a couple of videos on youtube from people that experienced the HEMI lifter failure around the 100,000 mile mark. Unfortunately Dodge has not acknowledged or addressed the issue.

Dodge may have addressed this in more recent model years. I'm referring to the recommended oil that meets Chrysler/Dodge specs and one of these is the spec which deals with excessive idling. 'course, as expected many owners dismiss this recommended oil as just a ploy to enrich Dodge or Pennzoil. No one apparently considers it might just be for the health of the engines.



Make sense Rams suffer from this failure mode. Vehicles used as work horses invariably spend a lot of time idling.


Used to be involved, at work, with auto/truck data logging devices. It was not uncommon shortly after fleet owners installed these devices in their fleet vehicles to call tech support and ask about the high amounts of idle time. It was a real eye opener how much time fleet vehicles spend idling. In fact even with my passenger cars idle time represents a considerable amount of the total engine run time.
 

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Dodge may have addressed this in more recent model years. I'm referring to the recommended oil that meets Chrysler/Dodge specs and one of these is the spec which deals with excessive idling. 'course, as expected many owners dismiss this recommended oil as just a ploy to enrich Dodge or Pennzoil. No one apparently considers it might just be for the health of the engines.


Great point. And I confess that I’m one of the ones that passed it off as possibly being just a money deal between FCA and Shell/Pennzoil.

Makes me glad that I decided to stick with full synthetic Pennzoil in both my SRT and my wife’s Durango R/T while they are under warranty. This is reason enough to keep using Pennzoil instead of switching to my old standby Mobil 1.

Someday I’ll figure out that the engineers just might know more than me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Dodge may have addressed this in more recent model years. I'm referring to the recommended oil that meets Chrysler/Dodge specs and one of these is *the spec which deals with excessive idling*. 'course, as expected many owners dismiss this recommended oil as just a ploy to enrich Dodge or Pennzoil. No one apparently considers it might just be for the health of the engines.

Make sense Rams suffer from this failure mode. Vehicles used as work horses invariably spend a lot of time idling.

Used to be involved, at work, with auto/truck data logging devices. It was not uncommon shortly after fleet owners installed these devices in their fleet vehicles to call tech support and ask about the high amounts of idle time. It was a real eye opener how much time fleet vehicles spend idling. In fact even with my passenger cars idle time represents a considerable amount of the total engine run time.
Can you expound upon this a little more? I have not seen or heard of a spec'd oil that is supposed to address issues that might arise from operating at idle for extended amounts of time.

This is isn't even full-on anecdotal evidence since I don't have all the details on what was done, but my Charger's service history appears to lend credence to what you're saying:

- it was a cop car from birth until the 110K mile mark
- at retirement (110K miles) the 5.7 Hemi in it had a total run time of just over 11K hrs.
- approximately 60% of that 11K hrs run time was spent idling (>6500 hrs)
- a local dealership replaced the camshaft (and presumably lifters?) at 90K miles
- at the time the camshaft was replaced, the engine would have had a total run time of approximately 9K hrs
- approximately 5,500 of those 9,000 hours would have been spent idling by that point.

Given all that, it sounds like what you're proposing could have been the case for my Charger...However, one thing that doesn't quite fit is also gleaned from my service history - I see a steady stream of oil changes done at local Dodge dealerships up until the camshaft failure. So if there had been a TSB or something similar issued regarding engine oil to use in Hemi engines expected to idle more than average, I would think they would have that information when doing the oil changes and used the recommended oil. And if we assume that was the case, what's with the camshaft going anyway (presumably from bad lifter)?

Eh, too much assumption and presumption I guess. Without more info and details about what happened to cause the camshaft to need to be replaced, I guess I cannot use my car's service history to bolster either side of the argument. :frown:

 

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Can you expound upon this a little more? I have not seen or heard of a spec'd oil that is supposed to address issues that might arise from operating at idle for extended amounts of time.

This is isn't even full-on anecdotal evidence since I don't have all the details on what was done, but my Charger's service history appears to lend credence to what you're saying:

- it was a cop car from birth until the 110K mile mark
- at retirement (110K miles) the 5.7 Hemi in it had a total run time of just over 11K hrs.
- approximately 60% of that 11K hrs run time was spent idling (>6500 hrs)
- a local dealership replaced the camshaft (and presumably lifters?) at 90K miles
- at the time the camshaft was replaced, the engine would have had a total run time of approximately 9K hrs
- approximately 5,500 of those 9,000 hours would have been spent idling by that point.

Given all that, it sounds like what you're proposing could have been the case for my Charger...However, one thing that doesn't quite fit is also gleaned from my service history - I see a steady stream of oil changes done at local Dodge dealerships up until the camshaft failure. So if there had been a TSB or something similar issued regarding engine oil to use in Hemi engines expected to idle more than average, I would think they would have that information when doing the oil changes and used the recommended oil. And if we assume that was the case, what's with the camshaft going anyway (presumably from bad lifter)?

Eh, too much assumption and presumption I guess. Without more info and details about what happened to cause the camshaft to need to be replaced, I guess I cannot use my car's service history to bolster either side of the argument. :frown:


I don't have (and a search didn't turn it up) the exact wording of the MS-12633 specification. My 2nd hand info (gleaned from reading posts by those that appear to have seen the spec) is it deals with excessive idling which is common (as I touched upon earlier) with fleet vehicles. (But as I also touched upon even cars not used in fleet applications spend a lot of time idling.) Some have commented that any high quality oil (Mobil 1 and other synthetic oils of the right viscosity grade) deal with this usage equally well.



As an aside, based on my experience running Mobil 1 0w-40 oil in a number of engines (for which the oil was approved by the engine maker) no engine ever manifested any signs of any problems that could remotely be traced to the oil. Heck except in one case -- the Boxster (and a bad Variocom solenoid/actuator) -- no engine every needed any attention to its internals. (The Variocam solenoid/actuator only required the cam cover and cams on one head be removed so it was not like the engine had to be dropped and the cases split.)


The deal breaker is I guess it takes a 2 year field fleet trial to qualify the oil and no doubt most oil makers are loathe to spend that kind of money for such a small market.


Another factor is that while the oil might be adequate under normal circumstances some types of usage qualify for severe duty.


Back in 2002 when I bought my 2002 VW Golf TDi (in Merriam KS just south and west of the KC Mo metro area) there was a sign posted on the service department desk that stated something to the effect that VW considered the region, based on climate, particulate matter, congestion, to fall into the severe usage classification and as a result advised (and the wording may have been stronger) following a more frequent oil/filter service schedule.


For a vehicle that spends around 60% of its engine run time idling that could constitute severe usage. But whether a fleet manager would even be aware of that -- and probably not if the vehicle maker didn't send out something "official" -- and follow a more aggressive oil/filter service schedule I can't say.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Well My car, 2nd owner, i bought it at 70K. I only ever changed oil with 0w40 LiquiMoly. drove fine, had only a hint of "hemi tick" until the other week. Right now it is still torn down as I was waiting on parts, last fo the parts are rolling in today, so that shoudl help, though no shop access this weekend due to two race events (One rally and one show).

Opted out of hellcat lifters and into some johnson lifter with the direct shot oiling to the roller, and manton 3/8ths pushrods. Dropping in an OEM 6 speed cam, MDS delete plugs, and had the heads cleaned and new seals installed at local machine shop (oldest family owned machine shop in the area...if not the state). sticking with stock stuff just due to costs associated with the repair. gonna do 2 quick oil changes when it is back together, one after about 30 minutes of running, and one after a long test drive as long as everything seals up well, then back to the LiquiMoly. I don't think that the oil had anything to do with the failure, looking as the disassembled lifter, all the internals were clean and not seized or galled, but the roller was chewed up as well as the roller axle. No needles were missing, so I can only surmise that the roller was starved of oil and started to wear the needles into the axle while wiping out lobe. Pistons, cylinders, everything else looks great and hopefully continues to work without issue....and no more MDS....I personally think that that lifter having oil flow cut to it likely led to it's demise.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
And just for a frame of reference, I am a former ASE certified mechanic, with a degree in Vocational education. I have built or assisted in the building in 10s if not hundreds of engines (mostly subaru flat 4s and SBF 5.0s couple Harley motors). I have participated in and done hundreds of oil analysis, including touring the blackstone facility in Indiana. I have and will pretty much trace as much as I can to find the original problem.

These days I am back to just being a hobbiest and part time shop help when needed. Nothing stays stock with me, wife even built the engine in her own Subaru....heck my john deere will pull the front wheels and has a 10 inch conical filter and is partly "mad max"
 
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