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6.4L - Oil question - confused

5M views 101 replies 47 participants last post by  Robert Haman 
#1 ·
Hello, so ive had my WB Scat Pack for a while now and it has just under 1900miles - ever since i started checking the engine oil after getting gas ive grown exceedingly paranoid. The damned dipstick is so retarded i cant even.. it has a very dull mesh pattern where it says "SAFE" inside. At the bottom of the pattern there is an arrow pointing up and the letters "ADD". Ever since i started checking the oil, (5min after shutoff on level surface) its extremely hard to tell where the oil level is at accurately. Like i seriously need to squint my eyes and angle the dipstick to be able to tell anything at all.

https://imgur.com/kTAyQXU
Here is a picture the first time i checked it. Yellow arrow shows it within the SAFE area.
However, after that every time i have checked, the oil has been at the blue mark, just above the ADD arrow, and then when i tilt and angle the dipstick i can see faintly oil where i marked with the RED line. Rest of the dipstick is dry. What gives? Oil life is at 70ish %

What are your experiences owning these cars? Have you guys/gals needed to add oil before the first oil change? Note that i just drive it to work and back, occasionally cruise around and drive it a bit harder on saturdays and sundays... nothing that would call for more oil at this mileage..
 
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#2 ·
The oil has a tendency to run down the dipstick sometimes if you don't hold it flat, but I get what you mean. Sometimes it's like the reading is different each time you pull it out. All you can do is wipe it really good and try again, sometimes I turn the stick around 180 degrees and see what it says on the other side, and compare the 2 sides. If you can get a consistent flat area enough times, that's where it is.
 
#9 ·
2 or 3 times? That is good. I'm like 7-8 times myself. Its that bad that friggin dipstick.
 
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#20 ·
Totally different engines, but my 2018 RAM 4500 with the Cummins specifically states a minimum of :30 for a proper oil level check. This is with either 15W40 or 5W40 synthetic engine oil.

The commonality is........both the 6.4L and 6.7L Cummins are both at the “40” end of the spectrum at operating temperatures.

I, too, only check on a cold engine, or at least after :30, on the T/A, the wife’s Grand Cherokee Limited, or the Dodge Dart, all running 5W20 Castrol Edge Synthetic.
 
#7 · (Edited)
My HC's oil dipstick is hard to read. I check the oil level with the engine cold and after sitting all night under a carport. Or I check the oil level with the engine hot -- fully up to temperature not just "warm" -- after letting the car sit with the engine off while I fill the gas tank.

In both cases it takes me several attempts to get a feel for the oil level. It helps if there is sunlight in which I can hold the dipstick in which helps me see where the oil level is on the telltale.

Worst oil dipstick ever.

(My other car a 2018 Mini JCW does not have a dip stick. To check the oil level the engine has to be running, at idle, up to temperature and probably rather level but I have not bothered to verify how level. I command the oil level measurement operation via the iDrive control. My two previous cars -- ignoring my 2 months with my Scat Pack -- one, the Porsche 996 Turbo had no dipstick either. Like the JCW the oil level was measured/checked with the engine running, up to temperature and level. The Boxster while it had a dip stick I could get an oil level measurement from behind the steering wheel with the engine cold simply be turning on the key and waiting while the timer counted down from 5 seconds. If the engine was shut off after being fully up to temperature and left to sit a while -- just long enough to fill the gas tank -- I could check the oil level hot after the 5 second wait.)

Couple of things: One is you need to check the oil regularly and often with a new car. Oil consumption varies from new engine to new engine. Check the oil level cold before you take the car out for the first time of the day and check the oil level with the oil hot. Like I mentioned above after stopping for gasoline is a good time. On a long trip I check the oil level in the AM before leaving the hotel and after every fill up. After every fill up because on a long trip each fill up can be after several hundred miles of driving.

Two is when you check the oil level cold then hot the level can differ. So what you need to do is check the level cold and then hot and to learn what cold level the oil needs to be so when the oil is hot the oil level is not too high.

Three is my advice is to unless forbidden by the owners manual to change the oil early. With my HC I changed the oil at around 500 miles, again at 2K miles (end of "break in"), and then at 5K miles. And thereafter every 5K miles.

However, since I had the oil changed at 10K miles last December when June rolled around I had only put 3K miles on the car but the oil change schedule is 6K miles or 6 months. So I had the oil changed after 6 months with only 3K miles on the oil.

Four I can add while in the case of my HC the oil level didn't really drop much at all from new and as I broke in the engine and then went beyond the break in miles, as I have started driving the car with more well, spirit, but not like I stole it, oil consumption has gone up some. Not lots but around a quart in 5K miles. It appears higher RPM operation increases oil consumption. This does not come as a surprise as I'm well aware of one of the things that can cause oil consumption to go up is more RPMs (or lots of idling). Still it is interesting to note the HC engine does this.
 
#8 ·
Pull the dipstick out, wipe it off, stick it back in, then take it out again and take a reading.

I agree with the above poster. When changing oil, only add about 6.5 quarts (assuming 5.7L or 6.4L) instead of the full 7 quarts. I think some oil is still in the engine after draining and if you put the full 7 quarts in it will read over full.
 
#11 ·
If the car is reasonably level, the engine not super cold, and the drain interval of reasonable length the oil can't defy gravity. It drains out.


(With other cars the factory clearly stated the oil drain conditions: Car level. Engine up to some minimum temperature. A drain interval of at least 20 minutes but with some engines an hour drain interval was called for. Then a specific amount of oil was to be added back in the engine. With cars with an electronic oil level sensor this allowed the tech to confirm the sensor reported the correct amount of oil. It was how the sensor's proper operation was verified.)


I hope if anyone follows your procedure at least he check the oil level again shortly after refilling the engine and if it low -- which almost certainly it will be -- to add sufficient oil to bring the level up to "full".
 
#10 ·
My 392's dipstick is the same way. My previous 5.7 was almost as bad.

One observation on both, you will get a different reading on each side of the stick.

Several years back in a SRT Chat Session, the engineers commented that the Hemi can safely run on 6 to 8 quarts of oil. The factory states to put in 7 with a filter change.

That's what I've always done with no issues, other than that damn sticks reading.

I seem to get the best (?) reading after the car has set all night and is "cold". It still reads over/ high, but stays there between changes.

I'll keep putting in 7 at oil/filter changes and call it good.
 
#30 ·
Same here John. I saw that post and had seen some stuff on YouTube as well. I thought it would best to go according to the OM with 7 quarts with the filter so if a warranty issue came up, the dealer couldn't give me any grief over the oil level.
 
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#14 ·
First if the dipstick indicates the oil level is low you should add the proper amount of the right oil to bring the level up to a safe distance above the low level. My preference is to heck with guessing what a "safe distance" above low is but instead to add oil to bring the level up to full but avoiding overfilling the engine with oil. I don't want to add just enough oil to hold the engine over until the next time I check the oil level.


Some oil consumption is a fact and normal.

There are things that can make this less than obvious. In some cases the car is used in such a way the oil doesn't get that hot and hot long enough so water builds up in the oil. (The water is a normal byproduct of combustion.) This water replaces the oil that is consumed by the engine.

As I have mentioned before at around 4K miles I had the oil analyzed in my 2002 Boxster.The analysis found around 7% water content. With just over 9 quarts of oil capacity this represented around 1/2 quart of water was part of the oil. Thus the level was good but 1/2 quart of oil was gone -- burned -- but replaced with the same amount of water.

(Prompted by the amount of water in the oil even though the car didn't get used for short trips I monitored the coolant temperature via an OBD2 tool and found the coolant temperature struggled in the winter weather conditions to get even up to 190F. This explained the rather high amount of water content in the oil. This experience also highlighted the importance/benefit of early oil services which I was aware of long before I bought this car but had sort of let slip from my consciousness.)

Now what can happen is the driver drives the car and notes the fact and is smug about it the oil level doesn't appear to be going down. Then a long trip is taken or the car is used in some way the engine gets hot and stays hot and this boils the water out of the oil. At some point the oil level is checked and the smugness is gone when the level is way down. Now it looks like the engine has an oil consumption problem but in fact it has been using a "normal" amount of oil the whole time. The driver just didn't know this.

BTW, any oil the engine uses doesn't have to be oil that gets past the rings or past the valve stem seals or through the guides.

The engine generates a considerable amount of oil vapor. (Videos of an over head cam engine operating at high RPMs shows the space under the cam shaft cover which is made out of a clear material is filled with oil vapor the extreme rotational speeds of the cams/chain/sprockets all work to turn liquid oil into vapor. While an OHV engine -- like the engine in our Dodge vehicle -- is not as bad it is bad enough and it also produces considerable oil vapor. The crankcase fumes are routed to the intake and along with other stuff in the crank case fumes oil vapor goes along. But there is an oil vapor recovery gizmo (years ago it was a wad of rather coarse steel wool) which catches the vapor which has it revert to liquid and this liquid oil then makes its way back into the rest of the oil.

But this vapor recovery can be quite inefficient. Enough so a considerable amount of oil vapor is passed through to the engine and this oil vapor burned.

One can see evidence this oil vapor is making it past/through the oil vapor recovery system if he takes time and the effort -- which admittedly is above and beyond what a typical owner would do -- to gain access to the intake manifold and check the intake walls around where the crankcase vent hose connects to the intake manifold. Almost certainly he would see the wall wet with oil.

(Techs who have the opportunity to view the intake at this level report the intake wall being wet with oil is very common.)

My point is "high" oil consumption is probably just oil being lost as vapor. If the rings or valve stem seals/guides are "bad" the engine would smoke when running. The loss of oil due to vapor only has the engine smoking, and then not every time, upon cold start.

As the owner of a new car, or even as the owner of a used car that is unknown to you, you should make it a habit to check the oil level to develop a sense of what if any oil consumption there is and to ensure the oil level is kept to reasonable levels to ensure the engine never runs low on oil.

To minimize the possibility of oil loss due to the oil leaving the engine as vapor run the factory recommended oil.

Do not run the oil too long. As the engine runs the oil gets contaminated, which is normal. A side effect -- also normal -- is the contamination can increase the propensity of the oil to foam and increase the amount of oil vapor which of course increases the oil lost.

Do not over fill the engine, but do not under fill it either. I strive to keep the oil level at the max level.

The odds are the engine in your car while it will use some oil -- this would be normal -- will not use too much. And unless the engine smokes while in operation the odds are this oil consumption is not due to any mechanical issues but just due to an inefficient separation of oil vapor from crankcase fumes as these fumes are routed to the intake manifold.
 
#18 ·
you have to wipe the dip stick really dry and I'll hold it horizontal and look at an angle to see the "wet" part.

I've also turned it over as the smooth side is a bit easier to see, put my thumb near that and turn over to refer to the level.

Engines can use oil, especially during the break in period.

I'd have drops of oil level and then it would stop. My 392 never required oil to be added during its break in and with 27K on it, still the same.

Which is convenient, since with a Shaker, you have to remove the 4 bolts, remove the top of the scoop to access the oil filler. [they are shipped with a magnetic 10mm nut driver tool in the glovebox to facilitate any stops to add oil]
 
#19 ·
I was actually referring to the modern 6.2's And 6.4's. And also my 5.7 Ram.
The last vehicle I have had that used(leaked?) oil was my 98 Ram with a 318 and it didn't use a drop until about 160K.
Prior to that my GM 350's required constant monitoring, A qt low was common. It leaked out and burnt out.
My Honda's, Toyota's, and Dodge's (post 17 Dodges ) do not use any.


Knock on wood
 
#21 ·
You're not alone my friend! That dipstick earned its name "dipstick." I hate that thing as well. The first time I changed oil I could hardly tell where the oil level was and after checking it twice, it would still read over the full mark. I thought it was something wrong with the dipstick or the owner's manual was a misprint for the oil specs.
 
#22 ·
Thanks for all the contributors, glad to see I'm not the only experienced car guy that has trouble checking oil level in their MOPAR's. Both the 5.7 Ram and the 6.4 Scat Pack are difficult. Many factors appear to contribute to the difficulty including oil temperature, length of time engine has been off, incline where vehicle is parked (even an almost unnoticeable incline appears to have a significant affect), poor visibility of dipstick, etc.

Last oil change on the Scat Pack was the first I did myself, previous changes were complimentary from the dealer, the oil level on the dipstick appeared to be approximately 1/2 quart over full after dealer oil changes. Last oil change on both vehicles the oil was allowed to drain for an extended period, don't recall exactly how long but it was over an hour. When refilled with 7 quarts the Scat Pack dipstick appeared to indicate approximately 1/2 quart over full while the Ram appeared to indicate approximately 1/2 quart under full. Both dipsticks were scored with a line indicating level after oil change.

I'm now mostly convinced the largest source of oil usage is (wait for it) checking the oil as it takes many dips to get a confident reading.

Slightly off topic, the Ram does appear to have an oil consumption issue but only with O'reilly store brand fully synthetic oil. Ram now has 160k on the clock. On a recent 900 mile trip 2 quarts disappeared. They were replaced with a similar Pennzoil product, there was no oil usage on the return trip. Under normal driving the Ram uses between 1/2 and 1 quart of the O'reilly oil in 3k miles. Fortunately the stash of that oil has been used and the Ram is using little if any Pennzoil. In any case the difficult to read dipstick made it even more difficult to understand an already confusing situation.
 
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#24 ·
Very well said, I have never seen any oil usage in my newer vehicles.
I thought I wanted the eco-diesel Ram until I went and looked at a used one and the seller told me he had to top off the oil occasionally.
 
#23 ·
FWIW:

CRANKCASE OIL LEVEL INSPECTION

CAUTION:
Do not overfill crankcase with engine oil, pressure loss or oil foaming can result.


Unless the engine has exhibited loss of oil pressure, run the engine for about ten minutes before checking oil level. Checking engine oil level on a cold engine is not accurate.
To ensure proper lubrication of an engine, the engine oil must be maintained at an acceptable level. The acceptable levels are indicated between the ADD and SAFE marks on the engine oil dipstick.
It is recommended that the engine oil level should be checked when the engine is at operating temperature.
Position vehicle on level surface.
With engine OFF, allow approximately five minutes for oil to settle to bottom of crankcase, remove engine oil dipstick.
Wipe dipstick clean.
Install dipstick and verify it is seated in the tube.
Remove dipstick, with handle held above the tip, take oil level reading.
Verify the oil level to be at the top of the "SAFE" range +/- 1/4 of the total distance of the range.

Add oil only if level is below the ADD mark on dipstick.
 
#25 ·
I've only seen a couple of dipsticks that read right in 50'ish years that I've been playing with cars. When I get a new car to me, the first oil change I always leave 1qt low. Start it up, check for leaks, put stuff away etc. At least 10 mins later I check the oil. I mark in my book where 1 qt low is on the dipstick. Add 1 qt, now its got the correct amount of oil in it. I mark where "full" is. I check the oil cold after it sits all night. It's thicker, you can see it easier. I've rebuilt engines before and never seen a oil reading be different after it was put together and the oil changed. Yes there is some oil left over but not enough for me to put less oil in this current oil change.
If you take a white paper towel, fold it over and lay it flat on a table etc. Lay the dipstick flat on it, you will see exactly where the oil line is.
 
#26 ·
Haha, with all this dipping and wiping, i will end up wasting more oil than the engine does!
I might check the oil level in the mornings also, just to compare how it is vs warm oil. But wow, alot of good and informative answers and good to know others are experiencing the same with this dipstick.
I see some of you have never had to add oil, id still like to hear from more of you if you have had to add a bit of oil in between regular oil changes (with mostly normal-ish driving, no track usage) - So far im at ~66% Oil life.
 
#27 · (Edited)
so take a dremel or a etcher and make two marks, as long as the oil is between those lines, you're golden......and for those that mention, putting the specified amount of oil in, it reads over full, well I certainly hope you're not putting less in to reach the full mark [emoji23] you put the factory recommended amount, if it puts it over the full mark, take a picture for future reference, that's your full level, this isn't rocket science


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#28 · (Edited)
I feel weird that I don't find it too hard to check my oil?

I do 6.6 quart oil changes so the dipstick is actually useful though too. The SRT engineers have said in their chats to trust your dipstick, so this notion of marking it yourself isn't necessarily something I agree with.

I don't check it very often though because as others have noted, my car hardly uses any oil between changes, like almost zero...
 
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#29 ·
Another tip, pull, wipe, (and wipe the whole stick including o-ring and handle, so it doesn't get nasty and you mess up your hands next time)
then insert, and pull out leaving the tip in (yes, I know, that's what she said)
and read the stick then drop it back in, easier/quicker than a full pull, look pro. Back in the day, I worked pumping gas with full serve, check oil, batteries, brake fluid, tires, sometimes coolant. All during the fillup and required front and rear window cleaning, with cars waiting in line. Every second counted.
 
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#31 ·
I have no problem with the dipstick at all. Unlike the "cranky" one in my old car, which had to be turned slightly to get it to go in all the way. Same thing on my '08 Charger's 5.7. I have no trouble at all reading it as long as it's daylight out. I check it cold or hot when I get gas, it only changes a little bit.
 
#32 ·
definitely check when car is cold. all fluids expand with heat meaning you wont get an accurate reading when its hot. And yes you'll have to dip and whip the dipstick 2-3 times to get the best reading. as far as running low oil between 5,000 mile oil changes you should never really be in the unsafe zone maybe on the lower end depending on how hard/aggressive you drive but for the most part your oil should stay in the safe zone between your oil changes. just watch any oli catch can video and youll see how much oil they catch when you drive around not to mention when you drive it hard just between 5,000 mile intervals.
 
#33 ·
Man, the dipstick on my '19 Scat Pack drives me nuts. I have to turn it edgeways and use reading glasses to see it. I even had my neighbor pull it and read it with a magnifying glass. The 'Safe' spot on the stick is only about a half to five eights of an inch long and, too me, barely visible. I thought very seriously about taking my little engraving tool to make the lines more visible. It's a little jewelers engraver I use on models and such. Haven't had enough nerve to do that yet though.

I check it almost every time I start it and shut it off, and have been getting very close to the same reading after waiting ten or fifteen minutes after shutting it off. The good news is, after a little over 2 thou, it hasn't moved. She hasn't used a drop of oil from what I can see, but I haven't run it up over 5 grand but a few times. I'm slowly getting to know her, truth be known I've never owned anything with this much hp.
 
#34 ·
Unless you just get crazy with the engraving, I don't see how you could hurt it. It's not like it is a stressed part or anything. I don't have any problems with the dipstick, but after a year I don't worry much about the oil. I check it about once a month when I empty out the catch can. I haven't even seen the oil level go down, and the catch can has maybe fully filled one time if I added up all the oil I got out of it for the year The first time I emptied it would count for over half of what I got out of it so far.
 
#35 ·
Gentlemen, & ladies, be very happy you have a 'real' dipstick in and up to 2019 models.
My 2016 Jeep with Pentastar, has the cable type dipstick, with the little 'dingle' on the end. They must have got that idea from Volkswagen. I had a beetle with that type. I hope the 'dingle never comes off in the motor:oops:

We also have a 2017 Mini Cooper Countryman. No dipstick. It uses the BMW internal sensors to measure level of oil and pressure. Its a BMW 2.0 turbo engine. Runs good, but very annoying there is no dipstick. You maybe able to cobble together one from parts of a 2016 BMW X3, but I glaze over when they start arguing over parts on the Bimmer-world forum, and life's to short to argue with horse's (beep) .

The Mini has no spare tire either but is equipped with run-flats. More annoying. I digress,

I wouldn't be aggravated with Mini, if it allowed you to choose and display various 'widgets' (items) to display like oil temp & oil pressure, like our Challengers do. Our Challengers are very well equipped with technology.
Our Mini really comes up short on technology compared to the Challenger. If they ever send me a survey from Mini asking what they could do to improve the product , -> WIDGETS ! and then say, Dipsticks : )

I like the real dipstick, in the Challenger, and count it a blessing everyday (y)
Because there is worse out there,,

The flat repair kit, eh not so much, better than nothing !
Have a good one !
 
#36 ·
Gentlemen, & ladies, be very happy you have a 'real' dipstick in and up to 2019 models.
My 2016 Jeep with Pentastar, has the cable type dipstick, with the little 'dingle' on the end. They must have got that idea from Volkswagen. I had a beetle with that type. I hope the 'dingle never comes off in the motor:oops:

We also have a 2017 Mini Cooper Countryman. No dipstick. It uses the BMW internal sensors to measure level of oil and pressure. Its a BMW 2.0 turbo engine. Runs good, but very annoying there is no dipstick. You maybe able to cobble together one from parts of a 2016 BMW X3, but I glaze over when they start arguing over parts on the Bimmer-world forum, and life's to short to argue with horse's (beep) .

The Mini has no spare tire either but is equipped with run-flats. More annoying. I digress,

I wouldn't be aggravated with Mini, if it allowed you to choose and display various 'widgets' (items) to display like oil temp & oil pressure, like our Challengers do. Our Challengers are very well equipped with technology.
Our Mini really comes up short on technology compared to the Challenger. If they ever send me a survey from Mini asking what they could do to improve the product , -> WIDGETS ! and then say, Dipsticks : )

I like the real dipstick, in the Challenger, and count it a blessing everyday (y)
Because there is worse out there,,

The flat repair kit, eh not so much, better than nothing !
Have a good one !
My Hellcat has the "dingle" on the end of a cable. Hate it.

My 2018 Mini JCW has no dipstick. To check the oil requires the engine be idling, up to temperature, and takes a minute with the engine idle slightly elevated. Believe it or not I really like this. Both my Porsche 996 Turbo and Boxster had a way to check the oil level from inside the car. The Boxster had a dipstick and I only used after changing the oil mainly because it was "there" but the Turbo had no dipstick. When changing the Turbo oil I counted the empty bottles. Twice.

Also, the Turbo having a dry sump oil system required the engine be up to temperature, idling, and the car reasonably level. The check didn't take 60 seconds though more like 5 seconds.

To have to get out and check the oil level in my Hellcat via that God awful dipstick/cable... Geesh what an outdated system.
 
#39 ·
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