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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been following the Hellcat development for some time and while I would love to have one I am sure it will be a while before my military paycheck can afford it. I keep reading about 700 HP this and that, but one thing I remember reading about the some of the older Challengers was the ability to get this power to the ground. I have a buddy that has a 2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins with about 900HP and some 2600 FT LBS of torque, but all he does is burn out everywhere. Very little of that power actually makes it to the ground even in 4WD. A heavy car like the Challenger with a crap ton of horsepower seems like nothing more than bragging rights if all that power is lost in tire smoke. It doesn't seem practical to daily drive slicks all over the place so how exactly would someone make the Hellcat hook up?

I am not starting a flame war or anything because I love Challengers and someday when the price is reasonable I will own one. I am just curious based on observations I made from other forums that regular 6.1L and 392's can't hook up if its the last thing they do. Burnouts are cool and American and all, but I would think that if I wanted to to make use of all that power I don't want to have to make excuses for losing because I burned out the first three gears off the line. No I do not condone street racing or anything just a little spirited driving on the back roads miles away from anybody else. Just curious what your guys' thoughts were.
 

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Gearing setup they went with should help lay down power pretty well. You just have to learn how to drive the power. Roll into the throttle as you gain traction at speed. Can't just punch it to the floor.
 

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These cars have launch control, torque management, and stability control. If you want consistent, repeatable and safe launches in a street race - use them.

Turn off all the nannies and proceed at your own risk - possibly straight into the nearest ditch.

I've learned to launch my car on the street without any nannies - but it takes a lot of trial and error and practice. Wider and stickier rubber, a bit of clutch slip, a small amount of wheel spin and it hooks.

But the Hellcat is an entirely difference animal. Without the electronic aids on the OE tires on the street - it will vaporize the tires. So leave them on and keep the shiny side up and show your tailights to the rest of the world.
 
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These cars have launch control, torque management, and stability control. If you want consistent, repeatable and safe launches in a street race - use them.

Turn off all the nannies and proceed at your own risk - possibly straight into the nearest ditch.

I've learned to launch my car on the street without any nannies - but it takes a lot of trial and error and practice. Wider and stickier rubber, a bit of clutch slip, a small amount of wheel spin and it hooks.

But the Hellcat is an entirely difference animal. Without the electronic aids on the OE tires on the street - it will vaporize the tires. So leave them on and keep the shiny side up and show your tailights to the rest of the world.

I have the torque management on my car turned way down/off and love the more raw feel it gained...but the few times I have turned trac control OFF...pretty hard to wrestle the car and keep her on the road! Even with 315s in the rear it's all over the place. I know we won't be able to tune a HellCat for a while so I hope the torque management adjusts some with the different settings.
 

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yeah look at the track footage! This thing launch's just fine. A time for a burn out and a time for just hooking and leaving. They got it all on this one!
 

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I'd say 11.2 @ 125 mph on street tires is getting the power to the pavement...
yeah look at the track footage! This thing launch's just fine. A time for a burn out and a time for just hooking and leaving. They got it all on this one!
Yup and yup!
The Hellcat has 3 different settings for traction, suspension and transmission. You can even make custom settings.

I think there are over 100 different combosfor the driver to make from these selections, IIRC. <<<(Don't quote me on this.)
 

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I think with drag radials, Nitto NT 555R's 275/40/20, there should be no problem...
 

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There's a difference between launching the car and putting the power to the ground. The OP was asking about the latter. All the electric aids will surely allow you to launch the car w/o much fuss, but that isn't the same as putting all the available power to the ground. Electric aids just limit the power so the wheels don't go up in a free wheel spin. Putting the power to the ground has everything to do with how much traction you can put to work. If the traction is limited, it won't matter how great the launch is...the power you can put down is just plain limited by the available traction. If you can't put something near WOT torque down from the beginning, then that power isn't getting used. Basically, you are just accepting a modest (traction-limited) launch in hopes you will make it up further on, where WOT will result in WOT output going to the pavement and the tires staying hooked. On a GT500, torque-management is padding stuff down all the way into 3rd gear. So I think you can imagine what will be going on with a 700 hp HC, unless you think they will be employing mystical physics-defying traction. ;)

I think the most credible advice in this topic so far was given by YO-EL...better be putting some serious a$$ tires on a car like that. (Of course, that all may end up a moot point if torque management steals out all your power until you are past 80 mph or so)
 

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It's 707 at the crank, shave 20% off and it's about 566 at the wheels.
 

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It's 707 at the crank, shave 20% off and it's about 566 at the wheels.
Hmm shouldn't lose that much...usually figure about 15% but with the new A8 they claim LESS drag so maybe 12-13% loss? Id guess whp to be 600 to 620. Can't wait to see a dyno run with the A8 and the M6!
 

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I don't think those numbers are all that representative for real use. The real numbers may be along the lines of 10x/8x/6x the engine torque, if you are planning to use 1st/2nd/3rd gear in conjunction with the axle ratio.
 

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I don't think those numbers are all that representative for real use. The real numbers may be along the lines of 10x/8x/6x the engine torque, if you are planning to use 1st/2nd/3rd gear in conjunction with the axle ratio.
Dyno runs are done in whichever gear is 1:1 which is 4th on a manual and likely 5th on A8.
 
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Yes, but we're talking about putting power to the ground, not just engine torque. Gear reduction (and torque multiplication) of that engine torque in gears 1/2/3 are what the tires are really facing.
 

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There's a difference between launching the car and putting the power to the ground. The OP was asking about the latter. All the electric aids will surely allow you to launch the car w/o much fuss, but that isn't the same as putting all the available power to the ground.
Whether you feather the throttle, slip the clutch or turn on a launch control system you are limiting the application of power to avoid frying the tires. The only way to launch 700+ hp under "available" power is to have a seriously beefed up drivetrain and the stickiest tires ever known to man on a surface that is just as sticky while popping the clutch at peak torque. Aside from that we must mitigate the engine torque in someway to maintain traction or go up in smoke.

What I got from the OP's question, and he can clarify this, was his asking if these cars will perform or simply be a smoke producer. The answer is they will perform very, very well.
 

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Well the Hellcat ran 10.85 on DRs and 11.2 on OE tires and the trap speeds were 126 and 125 respectively. This is a treated surface, but it does give an indication that the OE tires are pretty grippy - they only gave up 0.35 sec compared to DRs, which is pretty impressive considering the power level of that engine.

If you've seen the video of the Hellcat launch on OE tires with the A8, it's on the edge of traction right through 1st and 2nd - but the tires are holding. So the LC algorithm is pretty well sorted. If it was pulling massive power, there is no way it would only give up 0.35 sec and 1 MPH to DRs.

On the street - the level of launch success and associated acceleration will be directly tied to the traction/friction of that specific road surface. Some road surfaces are simply grippier than others.

Regardless, this will not be a situation where the Hellcat removes 450 HP from the engine (as Randy implied in the previous thread where he stated ~250 HP was needed to hook the tires). The OE tires are much better than that.

Yes - LC and TC will pull power as needed to keep the tires on the edge of traction and once they hook it will unleash the full power. But it will happen very quickly and won't be a protracted and obvious loss of power for several seconds where you are getting beat by Prius drivers off the line.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Yep that was my question exactly. I did see a few videos and most of them are burnouts by this person or another. Only one video showed true results which is still very impressive. On a track with sticky tires and ideal conditions I can see this thing performing extremely well. My concern was mostly for non track buyers that do the occasional spirited driving if the Hellcat will leave most of its impressive 700 horsepower behind in the form of smoke. It is something I continue to think about as horsepower numbers continue to creep up. Before long 1000hp will be mid range sports cars. In the end the vehicle relies on friction and surface area between the tire and the ground. I would just hope that people expectations are met when they go buy this thing and then videos start showing up with the hellcat losing to lighter cars with less horsepower all because the driver can't get the car to stop going balls out with light throttle.

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Torque management is the mystery factor, here. If it is in-effect, that would explain how stock oe and drag slicks could be remotely close in behavior on launch. So that is a strong hint that power is removed early-on (and then becoming accessible at higher gears), to maintain good tire hook, rather than actually being able to put the available power down and launching. When TM is removing power, that is really not that different than just lightly feathering the throttle off-the-line to keep the tires in rolling contact. Slip is minimized, but it is pretty obvious that you cannot exploit the full potential of the powertrain until 3rd gear or so and 80+ mph.

When you see the tires hook at launch, 2 things are possible. Either the tires are able to take the full brunt of the powertrain, or the powertrain is momentarily padded down by electronic logic to best utilize limited traction of the tires. I would expect the latter is happening. The real downside to the latter is that the action of TM will be there whether you use slicks or not, so you don't even get to fully utilize what the slicks could do, altogether (but more likely the stock halfshafts won't take it, anyway, even if you could). So the only way out of that box is to explore aftermarket tuning that would reduce/eliminate TM (but very heavy duty tires will then be mandatory...so you pick your poison).
 

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Yep that was my question exactly. I did see a few videos and most of them are burnouts by this person or another. Only one video showed true results which is still very impressive. On a track with sticky tires and ideal conditions I can see this thing performing extremely well. My concern was mostly for non track buyers that do the occasional spirited driving if the Hellcat will leave most of its impressive 700 horsepower behind in the form of smoke. It is something I continue to think about as horsepower numbers continue to creep up. Before long 1000hp will be mid range sports cars. In the end the vehicle relies on friction and surface area between the tire and the ground. I would just hope that people expectations are met when they go buy this thing and then videos start showing up with the hellcat losing to lighter cars with less horsepower all because the driver can't get the car to stop going balls out with light throttle.

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Not going to happen if you leave LC and TC enabled. It will modulate power on the edge of traction far more quickly and efficiently than you can with your right foot. LC can be adjusted for the typical road surface you'll encounter, so you'll be able to experiment and find the optimal settings. Then just floor it and hang-on. To the extent you are traction limited against another powerful car with similarly sticky tires - it will be a close contest until the tires hook and then it's game over - and that will happen very quickly.
 
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