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2021 Challenger R/T Scat Pack A8
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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Overall, we're in complete agreement. The Challenger is far less than ideal in the autox game. See some of my comments above. But, my goal here is simply to tune the Challenger to be as good as I can for handling because it is fun and I, then, want to be able to really drive this thing. Most folks who buy these cars have never auto crossed or tracked. I think much could be gained in fun and safety in driving with this experience in these heavy cars. I have no illusions regarding my competitiveness. More on that later.

Another development is the SCCA, in interest of attracting more players, has established the Classic American Muscle (CAM) class specifically for old and new Camaro's, Mustangs, Chargers and Challengers. Only Camaro's and Mustangs show up, generally. This year they will have a Challenger on the line. Maybe, someday, two or three will sit on that bench.

The Mustang has evolved into a pretty decent sports car. So has the Camaro. One day, Chrysler will likely go down that same path. Bummer. Meantime, I want to tune my muscle car for street handling and drive the hell out of it. Because it is fun.

I will post some particulars on the CAM class later. The point is to encourage others to check out this very cheap, high performance street precision driving course that is held most months in a parking lot near you -- AutoCross. Then, consider a few HPDE's. Then maybe a few real drag races. After a couple of years your driving skills may surprise you. And, maybe others.

Of course, my butt will be handed to me. But, over time, it will be more and more difficult. I hope. :cool:
 

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Furious Fuchsia 2010 Challenger R/T Classic A5
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Just get tires and seat time in your undelivered Challenger for now! I doubt you'll find upgrades (other than increased displacement or forced induction) showing a more quantifiable improvement.

I'd recommend picking up a used set of factory Hellcat wheels for under $1k (stay away from those replicas since you'll be hitting the circuit and possibly kerbing!) or the 14-spoke WRTs. 275/40R20 square if 9.0" rim, 285/35R20 square if 9.5" rim.

Set 1: Daily driving and HPDE using Michelin PS4S or Continental Extreme Contact SPORT. They're the benchmarks in performance summer tires that can withstand track abuse and still retain a warranty (30k-mile). There're as-sticky and stickier tires but either no warranties (which will suck if they wear out after 2 trackdays or 5k miles) or no 20" sizes (custom forged 19s will greatly increase your options - thank you Corvette!).

Set 2: Sticky autocross tires - I'll assume you'll skip the Purple Crack (Hoosier A7 @ $500 each) and stick with competitive 200 treadwear tires. Top contenders were consistently BFG Rivals (no 20" sizes) and Bridgestone RE-71R (discontinued this year), but at least there's the Yokohama A052. Again, if you were on 18-19s there'd be many more options. Waiting to see if Conti Force, Nexen Sur4G or Nanking CR1 come in appropriate sizes for our platform.


Before doing an HPDE I'd err on the side of caution and at a minimum do a poor man's brake upgrade - pads, fluid, lines. Hawk DTC series of pads seem most popular here (I myself love Carbotech) but more importantly just stick to ones meant for the high temps of the road course (PowerStop has many zealots around but they only have ONE option that can possibly meet the reqs). Brake fluid just needs to be a DOT4 with boiling points around 600F dry (new) and 400F wet (used). Motul, Wilwood, Castrol are a just a few brands to choose from. Stainless steel braided lines come from Goodridge, StopTech and Russell but I'd verify front fitment with the current BR7 15.4" (or will you get the 15.7"?) Brembos.

There'll be plenty of time to drop money elsewhere later. Until then, have fun!


P.S. I have a set of black AAD front and rear adjustable control arms if you'd be interested. I bought them to replace my old SPC items but then the week I was going to install them AAD released the limited blue ones...I could not resist.
 
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2021 Challenger R/T Scat Pack A8
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Lot's a great info! Thanks. I'll check it all out.

I'm getting the large Brembo's so I need to find out if I can run 19" wheels. If I can that is probably what I'll do since there are more options for tires. Still researching that.

I'm still stuck on getting the red AAD control arms, etc. Those products are pure art.

I'll run the stock 20x9.5's with 275's for the first 6 months or so to establish a base performance as I upgrade the suspension. By then I hope to have a killer set of LITE wheels and sticky tires for the rest of the season.
 

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My set-up for street/ Auto-X on a 2015 R/T+. Eibach Sportline springs, hollow front and rear swaybar, adjustable front A-arms( spc), adjustable upper rear camber link. Front camber: -2.5, castor: 10.6( maxed), toe 1/16 out. Rear camber : -1.5, toe @ 0. I have 30 yrs Auto- X and 20 yrs road racing FWD cars, mostly in Golf GTI's. Last year I bought the R,/T, and it is a blast to run. Maximum castor helps you by picking up negative camber as you turn the wheel, so you are not running too much negative straight , which reduces braking traction. The side benefit is as castor increases road feel increases, which makes it easier to tell what the front end is doing. You are going to have lots of fun running that car, I was very surprised how well mine compared to my DSP cars, it feels lighter than it is, with a good balance. Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
My set-up for street/ Auto-X on a 2015 R/T+. Eibach Sportline springs, hollow front and rear swaybar, adjustable front A-arms( spc), adjustable upper rear camber link. Front camber: -2.5, castor: 10.6( maxed), toe 1/16 out. Rear camber : -1.5, toe @ 0. I have 30 yrs Auto- X and 20 yrs road racing FWD cars, mostly in Golf GTI's. Last year I bought the R,/T, and it is a blast to run. Maximum castor helps you by picking up negative camber as you turn the wheel, so you are not running too much negative straight , which reduces braking traction. The side benefit is as castor increases road feel increases, which makes it easier to tell what the front end is doing. You are going to have lots of fun running that car, I was very surprised how well mine compared to my DSP cars, it feels lighter than it is, with a good balance. Good luck
Wow! This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for!! THANKS!! What size wheels do you run? What make? I'm looking at going to 19", maybe even 18" wheels to get to reasonable weights. But, I did order the six piston brembo's...mainly because they look cool and should be good on the track. But, track is secondary to autox.

Do you run the same camber and castor settings for daily driving? That's what I did for the MINI. Also, do you go to the nationals?
 

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I am running the stock 20" wheels with 265-40 Bridgestone S007A, 240 wear tires. I looked for wheels but info on the weight of wheels is scarce. Tire Rack shows 3 possible wheels for the car ,all around 24 lbs, but no listing for Enkei RPF1, that I used on my VW. A 19"X10 RPF1 is 21.3 lbs. I had a tire store mount for he tires ,so I had no chance to weigh the stock wheels, someone on this forum should know stock wheel weight. I only drive the car 3k -4k miles per year ( Midwest Winters, other cars and cycles) so I am leaving the alignment the same for street and AutoX. There is no problem street driving with these settings, the car drives great. On my old FWD cars with lots of negative camber, lots of front and rear toe out, they would burn up the inside edges of the front tires, and be borderline unstable at highway speeds. But I prefer cars with live steering feel. My car came used @30k miles with 1/8" of toe- in in front end. I have a Longacre toe guage so I can experiment, and not spend all my $$ at a alignment shop. First test was straight up, which improved the turn in. Second test was 1/16" out, which is good for me, with good front end feel, good stability, none of the solid dead feel it had with 1/8" in. Now with the springs, swaybar, and alignment, it will turn into a 50 mph on- ramp neutral /slight tail out. Runs through the ramp neutral with throttle. Comes out of the ramp with very slight front end push. Easy to adjust the attitude with the throttle. For AutoX I think it could use wider rear tires, it turns very good steady state, very easy to turn with the throttle ( 6-speed Tremec helps too). As a comparison my GTI would understeer almost always, even with 1/4" toe out front and rear and 3° negative camber. I had to trail the brakes to transfer weight to get the rear end out. The Dodge is more drivable, so much torque , you don't have to shift gears all the time. I've only run regional SCCA AutoX, my main focus was SCCA road racing. I ran Regional, National and Pro VW Cup, held the lap record for ITB at Brainerd a long time ago. While the R/T is a little large for the typical AutoX course, it is more fun than anything I've run before. Also I help out on event weekends ( tech, registration,whatever is needed) , if you are there early a lot of times you can be involved in course design too. I keep pretty good records of before and after specs, so if you have any questions on changes I've made ,feel free to ask.
 

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2021 Challenger R/T Scat Pack A8
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Discussion Starter · #27 · (Edited)
I am running the stock 20" wheels with 265-40 Bridgestone S007A, 240 wear tires. I looked for wheels but info on the weight of wheels is scarce. Tire Rack shows 3 possible wheels for the car ,all around 24 lbs, but no listing for Enkei RPF1, that I used on my VW. A 19"X10 RPF1 is 21.3 lbs. I had a tire store mount for he tires ,so I had no chance to weigh the stock wheels, someone on this forum should know stock wheel weight. I only drive the car 3k -4k miles per year ( Midwest Winters, other cars and cycles) so I am leaving the alignment the same for street and AutoX. There is no problem street driving with these settings, the car drives great. On my old FWD cars with lots of negative camber, lots of front and rear toe out, they would burn up the inside edges of the front tires, and be borderline unstable at highway speeds. But I prefer cars with live steering feel. My car came used @30k miles with 1/8" of toe- in in front end. I have a Longacre toe guage so I can experiment, and not spend all my $$ at a alignment shop. First test was straight up, which improved the turn in. Second test was 1/16" out, which is good for me, with good front end feel, good stability, none of the solid dead feel it had with 1/8" in. Now with the springs, swaybar, and alignment, it will turn into a 50 mph on- ramp neutral /slight tail out. Runs through the ramp neutral with throttle. Comes out of the ramp with very slight front end push. Easy to adjust the attitude with the throttle. For AutoX I think it could use wider rear tires, it turns very good steady state, very easy to turn with the throttle ( 6-speed Tremec helps too). As a comparison my GTI would understeer almost always, even with 1/4" toe out front and rear and 3° negative camber. I had to trail the brakes to transfer weight to get the rear end out. The Dodge is more drivable, so much torque , you don't have to shift gears all the time. I've only run regional SCCA AutoX, my main focus was SCCA road racing. I ran Regional, National and Pro VW Cup, held the lap record for ITB at Brainerd a long time ago. While the R/T is a little large for the typical AutoX course, it is more fun than anything I've run before. Also I help out on event weekends ( tech, registration,whatever is needed) , if you are there early a lot of times you can be involved in course design too. I keep pretty good records of before and after specs, so if you have any questions on changes I've made ,feel free to ask.
DucatiTom

Wow! Once again, a treasure trove of info. Thanks a again!

I'm really anxious to find some really lite wheels but, like you, I really can't find any yet. Considering going high dollar for really good ones but the 5x115 holed hub is problematic....likely will have to do a custom order. If I go that route I will likely wait till next year. Meantime, I'll run 3 or 4 events on the stock wheels and tires...then I go to stickier tires on the stock wheels for awhile. Glad to hear you like the stock wheels and Bridgestone set up reasonably well. I ran super light wheels on my MINI and it was great.

It is interesting you mentioned maybe running a wider set up in the rear. A good friend who runs consistently in the top 2% in his class at locals, regionals and nationals mentioned the same thing. He thought that the incredible horsepower would enable a staggered set up to work great.

You've had much more experience than me so I will likely have many more questions. I always go early to the autox events and stay late so, yes, I usually get to help the designer set up the course.

Here's a few pics of my MINI I ran. The R/T will just be a big version of this when it comes to looks and core upgrades. This was the JCW...sort of the Scat Pack in the mini world.

1025491


1025492


1025493
 

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2018 Scat Pack SHAKER in Plum Crazy
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I am running the stock 20" wheels with 265-40 Bridgestone S007A, 240 wear tires. I looked for wheels but info on the weight of wheels is scarce. Tire Rack shows 3 possible wheels for the car ,all around 24 lbs, but no listing for Enkei RPF1, that I used on my VW. A 19"X10 RPF1 is 21.3 lbs. I had a tire store mount for he tires ,so I had no chance to weigh the stock wheels, someone on this forum should know stock wheel weight. I only drive the car 3k -4k miles per year ( Midwest Winters, other cars and cycles) so I am leaving the alignment the same for street and AutoX. There is no problem street driving with these settings, the car drives great. On my old FWD cars with lots of negative camber, lots of front and rear toe out, they would burn up the inside edges of the front tires, and be borderline unstable at highway speeds. But I prefer cars with live steering feel. My car came used @30k miles with 1/8" of toe- in in front end. I have a Longacre toe guage so I can experiment, and not spend all my $$ at a alignment shop. First test was straight up, which improved the turn in. Second test was 1/16" out, which is good for me, with good front end feel, good stability, none of the solid dead feel it had with 1/8" in. Now with the springs, swaybar, and alignment, it will turn into a 50 mph on- ramp neutral /slight tail out. Runs through the ramp neutral with throttle. Comes out of the ramp with very slight front end push. Easy to adjust the attitude with the throttle. For AutoX I think it could use wider rear tires, it turns very good steady state, very easy to turn with the throttle ( 6-speed Tremec helps too). As a comparison my GTI would understeer almost always, even with 1/4" toe out front and rear and 3° negative camber. I had to trail the brakes to transfer weight to get the rear end out. The Dodge is more drivable, so much torque , you don't have to shift gears all the time. I've only run regional SCCA AutoX, my main focus was SCCA road racing. I ran Regional, National and Pro VW Cup, held the lap record for ITB at Brainerd a long time ago. While the R/T is a little large for the typical AutoX course, it is more fun than anything I've run before. Also I help out on event weekends ( tech, registration,whatever is needed) , if you are there early a lot of times you can be involved in course design too. I keep pretty good records of before and after specs, so if you have any questions on changes I've made ,feel free to ask.
Ever run Nelson Ledges? Or BeaveRun/Pittsburgh, or Summit Point?
Those are the only tracks I am familiar with, my father in law ran Formula Vee in this area. I hope to do a track day at Nelson. Would those tires be good for track days? Since I am fully WFH, I am considering actual sticky performance tires in the future.
 

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I've been to Nelson Ledges, crewing for friends running the "Longest Day" 24hr race they ran there in the 1980's. I only drove a couple laps so I could sign up as a back- up driver if needed. Never got in, as the 944 blew up it's final drive at 1 in the morning. Heres a couple pictures of the Bridgestone S007A after 2 AutoX, and 800 street miles. They work good for street/ autoX, I'm not so sure about a road course, unless you shaved them down to 2/32" or something like that. Too much void area on them, I think a RE71R might be better for track use. Something that is almost solid on the outer 3"-4" might hold up better to running a bunch of laps.
IMG_20210625_120327839.jpg
IMG_20210625_120338948.jpg


Nice looking MINI JCW. Here's one of my R/T
1025519
 

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2021 Challenger R/T Scat Pack A8
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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
SCCA CLASSIC AMERICAN MUSCLE:

A few years ago SCCA created this new class specifically to attract old and new Mustangs, Camaro's and Challengers. Almost ALL mods anyone would want to do to these things are allowed. Most mods are unrestricted. Tires have to be tread wear rated at 200+. There are three supplemental classes:

CAM-C: Contemporary. Only real rule is minimum weight is 3300 lbs.

CAM-T: Traditional. Minimum weight is 3000 lbs.

CAM-S: Sports. All the American made two seaters. Minimum 2900 lbs for Corvette and Viper. All other cars 2500 lbs.

The last event at my club had eleven CAM-C's cars. That's a BIG class. Cool. There was one Camaro, one Challenger and one Charger and the rest were Mustangs and five were GT's.

The April event had 4 Challengers and 1 Hellcat out of 17 cars in CAM-C and 2 Challengers in Novice class. Way cool!

Running in such a large class will make measuring results of mods a bit more meaningful. I will discuss my method for that later.

The top running Challenger placed number 32 out of 126. That's damn good considering the quality of the drivers and cars in this club which always has most of the top drivers from San Antonio and Austin.

The big point here is SCCA has been successful in attracting the muscle car crowd much better than when I last participated. You're now running against your own!! Hopefully, that is happening in many other clubs. You owe it to yourself to do at least 3 or 4 events at some point. It's great fun and the best driver education you can get. You can ask any of the top drivers if they would ride along and coach you...someone always will...and it is always insightful.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Just got notice that the GreyLenz has arrived. Will have to wait till tomorrow morning to pick it up. Salesman sent me a pic.

1027278
 

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Just got notice that the GreyLenz has arrived. Will have to wait till tomorrow morning to pick it up. Salesman sent me a pic.

View attachment 1027278
Congrats.
Powerfully elegant!
Nice Scat. The Carbon/Suede is amazing Much nicer than I was expecting.
That HK kicks butt too!
Enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
Thanks. I'm scheduled for 2 August for front half ppf and ceramic coat over all. Also may get a checkered rocker panel side stripe but not final on that yet. That will likely be the only things on the exterior. Saving costs to put into super lite wheels, which for the Challenger will be ridiculously expensive, I'm sure. I'm doing the Luxe Auto treatments on the side lights, etc and will get the darkest tint that is legal in Texas. Don't want hassles with the cops.
 

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"front half ppf and ceramic coat over all"
You will be so happy you had this done. I was!
 

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There’s no reason you can’t do well with the Challenger I just hope you’re rich.
There’s a reason people autocross small light cars like the Mini Cooper and Miata and it’s not just handling.

The Challenger or any other heavy car will eat a $1500 set of tires in a weekend.
 

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" hope you’re rich "
Speed cost money.
How fast do you want to go??? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
" hope you’re rich "
Speed cost money.
How fast do you want to go??? ;)
Indeed...tires will be a big expense...I'm not rich but willing to spend for speed.
 
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Here's the near same photo with a big difference...the Lenz is now in my possession! Short drive home...had to get back to work. Will post more soon.

1027364
 
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Here's the sticker. No premium and the $1500 rebate from Dodge covered the destination fee. Sales Tax was $3,396.06. After downpayment I financed $48,256.00 for 72 months at 1.99% annual thru them so the dealer got their taste. The best I could do was 2.26% thru USAA so I took theirs through PNC Bank. I may pay it off much sooner but with money this cheap and gold and silver being so cheap I may not.

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I had a mortgage with PNC once. They calculated interest on a daily basis instead of monthly so they could compound it. Only bank I've ever seen do that. Crooks.
I refinanced with a better bank and just paid those clowns off. Their greed actually cost them allot in lost interest.
 
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