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Discussion Starter #1
:bangin: I just found out (after a year of ownership) that you don't need the "Super Track Pack" option to turn off TCS fully as long as you have the 6M. I read several posts on this topic, but missed the part about all 6Ms having this ability.

So, for those of you that made the same mistake as me: With the car NOT MOVING or MOVING, push the TCS button to go into "partial" off. (You will then get the squiggly idiot light) With the car NOT MOVING, push and hold the button for about 6 seconds and you will see in the EVIC "Traction Control Off" (Full off). If you activate cruise control, it will go back to normal.

I read my manual several times and I can't find the info about how to go to full off, but it does work.

FYI: Even in partial off, the tires will still smoke as I have done it many times! I can't wait to play with it in full off now that I figured it out.

Many thanks to you guys and this forum!
 
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:bangin: I just found out (after a year of ownership) that you don't need the "Super Track Pack" option to turn off TCS fully as long as you have the 6M. I read several posts on this topic, but missed the part about all 6Ms having this ability.

So, for those of you that made the same mistake as me: With the car NOT MOVING or MOVING, push the TCS button to go into "partial" off. (You will then get the squiggly idiot light) With the car NOT MOVING, push and hold the button for about 6 seconds and you will see in the EVIC "Traction Control Off" (Full off). If you activate cruise control, it will go back to normal.

I read my manual several times and I can't find the info about how to go to full off, but it does work.

FYI: Even in partial off, the tires will still smoke as I have done it many times! I can't wait to play with it in full off now that I figured it out.

Many thanks to you guys and this forum!
I'll test it! smoking tires is FUN!!:eek:hyeah:
 

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I shouldn't have read this, I get the feeling now that my cost of ownership is about to go up....great.....
 
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Why in the world would you turn off a feature that is designed to save your sorry butt when you do something stupid. My car would have ended up in a ditch the 1st week I owned it when I tried a twisty section near my home.One that I had run dozens of times in my C5vette.I have over 110 passes at the drag strip, found that on or off made no difference as I don't spin when I launch.I run street tires and burnouts are a waste of rubber and my money.
 

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Well the other thing is that on twisty roads during aggressive driving you can end up turning the brakes into mush because of the traction control intervening. Turning that off means you can stop without killing yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Why in the world would you turn off a feature that is designed to save your sorry butt when you do something stupid. My car would have ended up in a ditch the 1st week I owned it when I tried a twisty section near my home.One that I had run dozens of times in my C5vette.I have over 110 passes at the drag strip, found that on or off made no difference as I don't spin when I launch.I run street tires and burnouts are a waste of rubber and my money.
I understand your concern for my safety, thanks. I like to play with my RT just like I used to with my old '71 Charger. Yes, spinning tires cost money, but I'm okay with that. During normal driving I keep TCS engaged. I like the ability to turn it off for experimentation and plain ole fun!

I never had TCS in older cars, so I have a good idea how to control my RT without a "computer" doing it for me.

TCS is a great feature and it really shines when the sun is not (bad weather), but it also takes away from the real driving experience.
 

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Some people just want to control the car the way they want to without a computer intervening. I'm one of those people too. The whole you have to do things a certain way for safety or so you don't offend someone gets kind of old.
 

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Unless you added aftermarket suspension...

...and brake upgrades....Why would you get a V8 without the handling to match the power? The non STP handles like crap.
 

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If you have experience driving a powerful RWD it's easy to handle, just don't go overboard in turns! I agree with c26 that's it's important to have a suspension and brakes that are up to the task of handling over 400 ft/lbs of torque. I'm glad I opted for the STP package, and now with good tires my car handles like it's on rails. :eek:hyeah:
 

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Penny pincher alert! :11:

I also enjoy the occasional tire roasting! especially when some kid in his import with the stupid "illest" sticker on his 4 cylinder civic is behind or next to me at a light. :pokeowned:



:jawdrop:
 

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I've taken my car on the road course a number of times but only did partial-off...except for the last session the last time out. I was under the impression, due to posts here, that full-off disabled ABS. It doesn't. My concern with no ABS was flat spotting my tires, but since I know my car pretty well I decided to go full-off for a session.

The conclusion I came to was that, for my setup, ESP wasn't intervening excessively in part-off but it was there. With it full-off the car was much more fluid and I actually had more control since I knew what I was doing and I didn't have to inadvertently fight the computer as well.

The best lap in the last session of the day was virtually spot-on to my best lap earlier in the day, which under the same conditions as earlier in the day would likely be a faster lap. The track I was at gets slower as the day goes on due to high winds in the afternoon, so I should be able to manager better lap times with it full off. We shall see. :)
 

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Yep....

I've taken my car on the road course a number of times but only did partial-off...except for the last session the last time out. I was under the impression, due to posts here, that full-off disabled ABS. It doesn't. My concern with no ABS was flat spotting my tires, but since I know my car pretty well I decided to go full-off for a session.

The conclusion I came to was that, for my setup, ESP wasn't intervening excessively in part-off but it was there. With it full-off the car was much more fluid and I actually had more control since I knew what I was doing and I didn't have to inadvertently fight the computer as well.

The best lap in the last session of the day was virtually spot-on to my best lap earlier in the day, which under the same conditions as earlier in the day would likely be a faster lap. The track I was at gets slower as the day goes on due to high winds in the afternoon, so I should be able to manager better lap times with it full off. We shall see. :)
Some of us drove big HP/Q cars before this tech existed (on ice and snow). But we learned slowly. If you are not used to driving WITHOUT "modern crutches," you may make a costly mistake. Practice in wide open spaces.
 

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...and brake upgrades....Why would you get a V8 without the handling to match the power? The non STP handles like crap.
Blinders, man. You know about those. ;) Different strokes for different folks. Not everybody is after pure performance. There is such a thing as fast enough, for the conditions anyway.

One man's idea of "crap" or "unsafe" is another man's idea of "fun" or "freedom". I don't want my car to go faster because if it can, I will. I don't get off on the idea of potential performance - if I have it, I'll use it. So I keep it traction-limited and handling-limited for my license's sake and in reason of all the fools and zombies around me. I still drive up to twice the speed limit, yes, even in the twisties, with its base suspension, 235 tires and ESP full off. So I shudder at what I'd do with the STP, meaty rubber, or a supercharger.

And TC/ESP is like training wheels. Those nannies will keep new drivers and the chronically incompetent on the road, and those folks should use them (please do). But the ones who outgrew the need for crutches find that they can trip you up on top of frying your rear brakes for no good reason. It's like driving with a scared monkey under the hood pulling all the stops. It's a wonder how we got around before they sanitized cars for our own protection. :rolleyes:
 
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You are probably correct...

Blinders, man. You know about those. ;) Different strokes for different folks. Not everybody is after pure performance. There is such a thing as fast enough, for the conditions anyway.

One man's idea of "crap" or "unsafe" is another man's idea of "fun" or "freedom". I don't want my car to go faster because if it can, I will. I don't get off on the idea of potential performance - if I have it, I'll use it. So I keep it traction-limited and handling-limited for my license's sake and in reason of all the fools and zombies around me. I still drive up to twice the speed limit, yes, even in the twisties, with its base suspension, 235 tires and ESP full off. So I shudder at what I'd do with the STP, meaty rubber, or a supercharger.

And TC/ESP is like training wheels. Those nannies will keep new drivers and the chronically incompetent on the road, and those folks should use them (please do). But the ones who outgrew the need for crutches find that they can trip you up on top of frying your rear brakes for no good reason. It's like driving with a scared monkey under the hood pulling all the stops. It's a wonder how we got around before they sanitized cars for our own protection. :rolleyes:
..and you ARE correct about my "blinders."...But I have needed the STP. In Virginia, we have 2 lane/270 degree Freeway on-ramps that merge into one lane. I needed the handling when overtaking other cars at high speed. Comes in handy.
 
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I've taken my car on the road course a number of times but only did partial-off...except for the last session the last time out. I was under the impression, due to posts here, that full-off disabled ABS. It doesn't. My concern with no ABS was flat spotting my tires, but since I know my car pretty well I decided to go full-off for a session.

The conclusion I came to was that, for my setup, ESP wasn't intervening excessively in part-off but it was there. With it full-off the car was much more fluid and I actually had more control since I knew what I was doing and I didn't have to inadvertently fight the computer as well.

The best lap in the last session of the day was virtually spot-on to my best lap earlier in the day, which under the same conditions as earlier in the day would likely be a faster lap. The track I was at gets slower as the day goes on due to high winds in the afternoon, so I should be able to manager better lap times with it full off. We shall see. :)
I'm glad you came around to thinking that ESP was getting in your way and slowing you down. My car absolutely loses some ABS capability (as I've stated before and by the way), but I have NoESP which 'may' differ from the factory setup. I can turn ESP off while driving and with my wheels turned, for example.

Anyway, the 'crutches' are useful and do work great, but for those below a certain level. Beyond that they fight you. And a road course can be driven very cleanly, especially if you're racing against yourself instead of in the middle of a pack. But on real world roads, fast driving gets down and dirty. There are a lot of quick corrections and the car has to be a good machine and to respond to all inputs, no matter how contradictory they seem.
HAL won't see that car about to back out of a driveway, how suspiciously shiny the road ahead appears or how much more fun it would be to negotiate a turn sideways because visibility is good. We humans may be slower than computers, but we still know and want a lot more than they do to accept their total or even partial control.

@c26bt34c: not picking on you, man, but I'd just like to say once and for all that for some of us a car taking a lot of roll and slipping and sliding while leaving skid marks and trails of smoke in its wake is a lot of fun. If I were racing against a timer I'd give up all the pyrotechnics for the rail thing. But I ain't. Sideways at 50 is more exciting, fun and even safe to me than solidly planted at 60. Performance can not only viewed in terms of time, but also in percentage of the limit you're getting. So keeping the car's limits low allows me to get closer to 100% more often in the real world, which is much more satisfying than getting 75% but at higher speeds. You feel me?

Soon after buying the car (and knowing from my Charger that the base models were fast enough for the real world) a driver pissed me off on a twisty road near my house. So I passed the car and gunned it to leave it in the dust. The R/T negotiated several turns at 90 and I could've pushed it further at the track, maybe to 100 before things started to get hairy, but that was enough for the visibility and my living in cop land. The speed limit there was 45. Just an example to show why I'm puzzled as too how fast most people need to go. Guys who actually track, road course or autocross, are another breed, but those guys don't sing the STP song, they prep their cars to race with better components.
 

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Call em as you see em...

@c26bt34c: not picking on you, man, but I'd just like to say once and for all that for some of us a car taking a lot of roll and slipping and sliding while leaving skid marks and trails of smoke in its wake is a lot of fun.

That applies to anything I say. I don't mind criticism (if you do, you shouldn't be here IMO)...and have deserved it more than once. I've learned some things here.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Everyone here has legitimate points. I wish my RT had STP, but it doesn't. I still think it handles well and hardly like crap (well maybe if I was racing it around a track, I would think differently?). Anyhow, Like USRWDV8 said, it's just fun to play with at times. As far as handling goes, I'm happy getting to speed in a straight line so aggressive suspension parts aren't required for my style of driving. Although, I did get it lowered and that took care of some body lean while taking corners kinda fast! Yeah, I'm quite pleased with my non STP RT, especially now that I can turn TCS fully off!
 
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That applies to anything I say. I don't mind criticism (if you do, you shouldn't be here IMO)...and have deserved it more than once. I've learned some things here.
Your openness is refreshing, man. In the end, there's always two sides to every argument. And what people often fail to see is that it's not a right/wrong proposition, but a matter of perspective. That's why the factory offers the base models and why there are options. Dodge understands that not everybody expects the same thing from their car, has the same skill level, or drives it in the same conditions.
 

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Some of us drove big HP/Q cars before this tech existed (on ice and snow). But we learned slowly. If you are not used to driving WITHOUT "modern crutches," you may make a costly mistake. Practice in wide open spaces.
IMO, there are two kinds of drivers in the world.

- The one that says "Huh, I wonder what this does?" and ends up in the ditch.
- The one that says "I know what this does and I know what to do." and they do it.

I was the first one when I was around 11 or 12 and growing up with miles of private dirt roads in the mountains, only I didn't end up in the ditch but once or twice and never horribly so. That and plenty of practice allowed me to become the second one relatively early on. I didn't have a car with traction control until I was around 30.

One of the most fun experiences I had was back in 1997/1998, my wife, a couple of friends and I went camping on the Verde River in AZ, this particular spot was about 15 miles down a dirt road. At the time, I had a '93 Ford Probe and my friend had a '97 Jeep, the Jeep is what we (I) drove across the river to the camp site. Well, during the night it rained pretty good and my wife had to work the following morning. The river rose slightly but not much, so my friend drove us across and my wife and I hopped in the Probe and headed out. We passed countless 4WD vehicles stuck in ditches along the way and we made it through. It was sketchy at times, but what an adventure!

I still have a picture of it from after that day. :)



Point is, I do agree with you and modern vehicles do tend to require less skill to drive, which then also means the drivers have no idea what to do in situations where the car is unable to essentially drive for them. I think all new drivers should have to take a defensive driving course to learn how to handle those kinds of situations.
 

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I dig my STP setup and wouldn't own a Challenger without it. No, I do not race on the track, close road course or street---I'm thankful that I got most of that itch scratched about 25 years ago while still ripping around own on sportbikes. And I even lived to tell the tale!

For me, the STP crispness is appreciated even during short commutes to and from work (under five miles) while traveling at an average speed of under 30 mph. Driving this car isn't about going above/beyond speed limits or egging-on another driver. For me it's about the feel of the car, the sound, the handling dynamics---all whether I'm driving 55 mph or only 25 mph. Just feels like a REAL car.
 
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