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2017 Challenger Scat Pack, M6
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I've got a 2017 with the 392 motor, it's a manual so no MDS.

I'm very seriously mulling around the idea of throwing the cam and springs in myself (though I've never done any serious engine work like this before).

I've done a fair amount of research, but I'm left with a couple questions as follows:

1. When I take the phaser off, as long as I keep upward tension on the chain, and don't let the chain move from its position in the lower sprocket, I shouldn't have to take the oil pump off, right?

2. I've seen conflicting information about the timing marks. I've seen on a couple places where you should have the 12 O clock position on the phaser match up between the 2 rectangular timing marks on the chain and the 6 O clock (which I hear is more like 5 o clock) position on the lower sprocket match up with the single rectangle timing mark on the chain. Is this correct?

3. What if I **** up and the chain comes loose on the lower sprocket, must I remove the oil pump and subsequently the oil pan?

4. How hard are the valve springs to replace (with the hemi valve spring tool) with the heads on, engine still in the car?

5. Do I need to degree the cam afterwards with a degreeing tool? Shouldn't it all be lined up already?

Don't respond with 'do a search', etc. I've done searches, but I'm asking for concise clarifications. Don't want to **** this up.
 

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2020 Dodge Challenger Hellraisin Scat Pack
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Have no recent experience in this area. Years ago when I was rebuilding engines and installing and timing a cam I had the factory service/repair manuals to go by which covered this subject for the specific engine in good detail. I read and re read these sections until I was sure I had it all in my head.

I did not rush the work but took my time and checked and double checked every step.

The manuals covered static timing of the cam and I used this but to be sure to double check just in case I used a degree wheel and a dial indicator to double check the cam timing.

I did not remove the valve springs with the head(s) still on the block.

There are many things to be aware of and watch out for. I'll mention one because it often does not get mentioned but is critical for a successful and problem free cam installation.

If you remove the valve springs -- with the head off or on the block -- you want to be very careful you do not scratch or in any way damage the spring, the spring retainer or spring keepers. Do not even allow the springs or other hardware to bang around in a box.

Any damage to any one of these parts can be the start of a stress fracture which can have the spring break or a retainer break or a keeper fail. The valve can them become "loose" and if this happens the valve drops into the chamber/cylinder.
 

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#1 piston TDC, Cam dowel at 12 o 'clock, and Crank Keyway between 1-2 o'clock position. It's pretty straight forward on these engine.

Chain goes right back onto the sprocket. Just make sure you have an allen key in the tensioner prior to trying to put the chain on. Oil pump does not need to come off. Alignments marks on the chain don't really matter, but you can align the marks when installing.

Valve springs are a pain in the engine bay. It's a tedious job and dropping anything just sucks. The hemi valve tool works great for the job.

As long as you went with a known Hemi cam, you don't need to degree the cam.

If you have any mechanical aptitude, a Hemi cam swap is easy. Take your time and ensure your torques are correct. There is no sicker feeling than hearing a crack torqueing a cam retention plate screw.
 

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I removed my oil pump without dropping the pan, just gotta be super careful not to drop the little bolt that holds the pick up tube. If you drop it, then you're dropping the pan. A ratcheting wrench is good for this.

When I timed my cam it was 12 o'clock on top and 5:30(best way to describe it) on the lower sprocket.

If you're over 30k miles do yourself a favor and just pull the heads, replace lifters and make the job easier. If you've ever thought about long tubes this would be the time to install them as well. When I say it's 1000x easier with heads off, I'm not exaggerating AT ALL. Done the job of cam and headers 3 times now
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
As long as you went with a known Hemi cam, you don't need to degree the cam.

If you have any mechanical aptitude, a Hemi cam swap is easy. Take your time and ensure your torques are correct. There is no sicker feeling than hearing a crack torqueing a cam retention plate screw.
I was gonna go with a Comp 270, not sure about degreeing it.

I was debating getting a split beam style torque wrench just for this procedure so nothing gets screwed up.

I removed my oil pump without dropping the pan, just gotta be super careful not to drop the little bolt that holds the pick up tube. If you drop it, then you're dropping the pan. A ratcheting wrench is good for this.

If you're over 30k miles do yourself a favor and just pull the heads, replace lifters and make the job easier. If you've ever thought about long tubes this would be the time to install them as well. When I say it's 1000x easier with heads off, I'm not exaggerating AT ALL. Done the job of cam and headers 3 times now
I heard about that method, dropping the bolt makes a little nervous about it though.

As far as pulling the heads.. Well I imagine it'd be a lot more of a PITA and time investment, but I do have some Kooks LTs I wanna install.

How much more of a pain is it to do the heads? That's something I've not ****ed with before, just like the cam.
 

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I was gonna go with a Comp 270, not sure about degreeing it.

I was debating getting a split beam style torque wrench just for this procedure so nothing gets screwed up.



I heard about that method, dropping the bolt makes a little nervous about it though.

As far as pulling the heads.. Well I imagine it'd be a lot more of a PITA and time investment, but I do have some Kooks LTs I wanna install.

How much more of a pain is it to do the heads? That's something I've not ****ed with before, just like the cam.
Heads are ez for the most part. Honestly my least favorite part is draining the fluids which you have to do for the cam anyway. Pull the valve covers, rockers, disconnect exhaust at manifold->midpipe and unbolt power steering pump(2010, may differ on newer cars). Intake manifold has to come off which is like 10 M8 bolts, and all the fuel injector connectors, map sensor, etc. And the just unbolt the heads and get ready for some coolant to spill out. Make sure you have new head gaskets and bolts as always and follow the torque sequence. With some practice i can pull the heads off a block in the car in about an hour.

As far as time, you'll save a bunch since you have headers to install. Cost, just factor in the price of head bolts, gaskets, and lifters. ~$400-450.

And I wouldn't go with the 270 cam imo, much better options out there like comp HRT series, MMX custom grind, Texas speed, etc. Do it right and do it once

Edit: forgot to mention the time it takes to do springs on the car is about the same time it takes to just pull the heads anyway. And you won't have to worry about dropping a keeper
 

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I was gonna go with a Comp 270, not sure about degreeing it.

I was debating getting a split beam style torque wrench just for this procedure so nothing gets screwed up.



I heard about that method, dropping the bolt makes a little nervous about it though.

As far as pulling the heads.. Well I imagine it'd be a lot more of a PITA and time investment, but I do have some Kooks LTs I wanna install.

How much more of a pain is it to do the heads? That's something I've not ****ed with before, just like the cam.
Spend the money and get a Tekton torque wrench. Not expensive and does the job well.


Comp 270 is a decent cam, but understand there are a ton better ones out there. My recommendation is MMX or Jay Greene.
 

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Heads are ez for the most part. Honestly my least favorite part is draining the fluids which you have to do for the cam anyway. Pull the valve covers, rockers, disconnect exhaust at manifold->midpipe and unbolt power steering pump(2010, may differ on newer cars). Intake manifold has to come off which is like 10 M8 bolts, and all the fuel injector connectors, map sensor, etc. And the just unbolt the heads and get ready for some coolant to spill out. Make sure you have new head gaskets and bolts as always and follow the torque sequence. With some practice i can pull the heads off a block in the car in about an hour.

As far as time, you'll save a bunch since you have headers to install. Cost, just factor in the price of head bolts, gaskets, and lifters. ~$400-450.

And I wouldn't go with the 270 cam imo, much better options out there like comp HRT series, MMX custom grind, Texas speed, etc. Do it right and do it once

Edit: forgot to mention the time it takes to do springs on the car is about the same time it takes to just pull the heads anyway. And you won't have to worry about dropping a keeper
It'll be a little more than $400-$450 for the those items. OEM head gaskets run $50-$70 each. Going with Cometic will be a bit more. Johnson Lifters or Hellcat lifters will run you $500+ for a set. Don't bother with the cheap lifters (you get what you pay for). If you have plans to put a blower on it, pay the money to get ARP Head Studs. Those run about $250-$300 a set. If not, get the ARP Head Bolts ($200). Going with ARP for the heads save you from having to do the 90 degree additional turn to stretch the head bolts. The final torque is around 110 ft lbs (I believe). IMO it was worth the cost for the ease of mind on getting a seal between the block and heads.
 

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I would recommend removing the pump - you absolutely want to make sure the timing marks are cor-rect.
- even being one tooth off will have bad consequences.

the chain is longer so the marks on chain & sprockets only line up for initial assembly; once you've rotated the engine they won't line up until a couple hundred revolutions.

the 392 engine oil pickup tube is retained both to the pump (with a bolt) and the pickup tube has a nut secured to a stud.

on the 392, you'll have to remove the two steering rack bolts to lower it (leave tie rods and attached) and remove all the (25?) bolts on the oil pan to lower it a couple of inches.
-the pan gasket / windage tray can be reused - its a thick nitrile type material.

and yes, using compressed air and the valve spring compressor for a Hemi setup will do the job. put a dab of grease on the valve stem locks when re-assembling and they'll stick to the stem w/o falling off. (having a magnetic retriever tool is a good idea to have)

the stock M6 lifters should be fine - unless you have a higher mileage engine, you can use what you have
 
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3. What if I **** up and the chain comes loose on the lower sprocket, must I remove the oil pump and subsequently the oil pan?
I just removed the oil pump which does not require dropping the pan. I tried not to move the lower chain but I was not careful enough.
 

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It'll be a little more than $400-$450 for the those items. OEM head gaskets run $50-$70 each. Going with Cometic will be a bit more. Johnson Lifters or Hellcat lifters will run you $500+ for a set. Don't bother with the cheap lifters (you get what you pay for). If you have plans to put a blower on it, pay the money to get ARP Head Studs. Those run about $250-$300 a set. If not, get the ARP Head Bolts ($200). Going with ARP for the heads save you from having to do the 90 degree additional turn to stretch the head bolts. The final torque is around 110 ft lbs (I believe). IMO it was worth the cost for the ease of mind on getting a seal between the block and heads.
I got hellcat lifters for $350 twice, u just have to look around. Fel pro gaskets work the same as oem and are half the price. Head studs are a PITA and unnecessary for most builds, and the ARP head bolts aren't worth it. Again Fel pro bolts, $20. This is a cammed setup, not boosted so he doesn't need any extra stuff. Even I'm boosted and don't need any of it
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I appreciate all the knowledge and advice coming in. As far as the cam goes, what makes some of these other cams better than the 270? I'm looking for just a bit of lope, and to keep the power band relatively mid range.
 

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I appreciate all the knowledge and advice coming in. As far as the cam goes, what makes some of these other cams better than the 270? I'm looking for just a bit of lope, and to keep the power band relatively mid range.
Because the price of better fit cams are still the same price as the "one size kinda fits all" 270 cam. I'm gonna be installing a texas speed stage 3 boost cam soon so if you're still shopping I'll lyk how that one goes. But yea might as well get the cam that'll make the best power, sound, and drivability while you're doing it. Even comp says their HRT cams are an improvement over the old 266,270,274 grinds
 

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To prove I'm not crazy and that you can get "Hellcat" lifters(really just non-mds cuz they're all the same lifter, ask challytatum) look up this part # and you'll see them listed for $88 from multiple dealers and stores- (5038784AD). $88x4=$352
Head bolts and gaskets I get from rockauto and I have used them literally 7 times on gen 3 hemis with no issues.
Fel pro head bolts-$17x2=$34
Fel pro or Mable head gaskets- $22x2=$44
Oh and btw, Mahle makes the Mopar gaskets if u didn't know, and the Mopar ones seem to be double the price just cuz they have "mopar" in the name.
Don't forget rockauto always has a 2-5% discount you can always use as well. All in all you can do the lifters for less than $450 including gaskets and hardware.

Edit: I didn't link anywhere directly because there are other vendors who read these forums. Although seeing that we now know we can get them cheaper will cause prices to drop across the board hopefully. I have receipts for proof as well
 

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Speaking of lifters, make sure they have the larger roller needles like this member showed.

 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Because the price of better fit cams are still the same price as the "one size kinda fits all" 270 cam. I'm gonna be installing a texas speed stage 3 boost cam soon so if you're still shopping I'll lyk how that one goes. But yea might as well get the cam that'll make the best power, sound, and drivability while you're doing it. Even comp says their HRT cams are an improvement over the old 266,270,274 grinds
Alright yeah let me know. Realistically I'm probably going to wait until at least 2022 when my warranty is up to throw a cam in, guess I've gotta do another search of fits. I was talking to a well known hemi tuner about something like the 270, and they just straight recommended throwing the 270 itself in, as they thought it was one of the best performing cams for the 392.

I also have no plans to supercharge it or anything, so I dunno if that factors into them recommending the 270.
 

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2011 R/T 6M Bright White, 590whp 490wtq, Whipple 10psi, 274 cam, 1 7/8 LT headers, 429 gears
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It'll be a little more than $400-$450 for the those items. OEM head gaskets run $50-$70 each. Going with Cometic will be a bit more. Johnson Lifters or Hellcat lifters will run you $500+ for a set. Don't bother with the cheap lifters (you get what you pay for). If you have plans to put a blower on it, pay the money to get ARP Head Studs. Those run about $250-$300 a set. If not, get the ARP Head Bolts ($200). Going with ARP for the heads save you from having to do the 90 degree additional turn to stretch the head bolts. The final torque is around 110 ft lbs (I believe). IMO it was worth the cost for the ease of mind on getting a seal between the block and heads.
I hate that 90 degree or the whole additional degree turn. It's a pain to get the dial positioned in some areas (probably better setups than what I have). On my heads I ended up marking the bolt and the head, measured it out then aligned the marks.
 

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I would recommend removing the pump - you absolutely want to make sure the timing marks are cor-rect.
- even being one tooth off will have bad consequences.

the chain is longer so the marks on chain & sprockets only line up for initial assembly; once you've rotated the engine they won't line up until a couple hundred revolutions.

the 392 engine oil pickup tube is retained both to the pump (with a bolt) and the pickup tube has a nut secured to a stud.

on the 392, you'll have to remove the two steering rack bolts to lower it (leave tie rods and attached) and remove all the (25?) bolts on the oil pan to lower it a couple of inches.
-the pan gasket / windage tray can be reused - its a thick nitrile type material.

and yes, using compressed air and the valve spring compressor for a Hemi setup will do the job. put a dab of grease on the valve stem locks when re-assembling and they'll stick to the stem w/o falling off. (having a magnetic retriever tool is a good idea to have)

the stock M6 lifters should be fine - unless you have a higher mileage engine, you can use what you have
I was taught to not use a magnet to retrieve ferrous engine parts. The concern is the part obtains some magnetism and this can work to attract fine ferrous metal particles to the part which results in in wear.

If one does use a magnetic to retrieve a part demagnetizing the part after is recommended. I had a bulk audio tape reel demagnetizer which I used to -- besides erasing audio on tape -- I also used for when I needed to be sure a metal part had no magnetisim.
 

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To prove I'm not crazy and that you can get "Hellcat" lifters(really just non-mds cuz they're all the same lifter, ask challytatum) look up this part # and you'll see them listed for $88 from multiple dealers and stores- (5038784AD). $88x4=$352
Head bolts and gaskets I get from rockauto and I have used them literally 7 times on gen 3 hemis with no issues.
Fel pro head bolts-$17x2=$34
Fel pro or Mable head gaskets- $22x2=$44
Oh and btw, Mahle makes the Mopar gaskets if u didn't know, and the Mopar ones seem to be double the price just cuz they have "mopar" in the name.
Don't forget rockauto always has a 2-5% discount you can always use as well. All in all you can do the lifters for less than $450 including gaskets and hardware.

Edit: I didn't link anywhere directly because there are other vendors who read these forums. Although seeing that we now know we can get them cheaper will cause prices to drop across the board hopefully. I have receipts for proof as well
I went with Felpro gaskets on my last installation. They failed on the driver side and I ended up leaking exhaust into my coolant system. Decided to have the heads ported and sent them out. Went with Cometic when I reinstalled them and have had no issues. Maybe I got a bad gasket, but I know I won't bother using Felpro head gaskets again.
 

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Alright yeah let me know. Realistically I'm probably going to wait until at least 2022 when my warranty is up to throw a cam in, guess I've gotta do another search of fits. I was talking to a well known hemi tuner about something like the 270, and they just straight recommended throwing the 270 itself in, as they thought it was one of the best performing cams for the 392.

I also have no plans to supercharge it or anything, so I dunno if that factors into them recommending the 270.
Here's my recommendation, since you're staying naturally aspirated:


I installed a NSR MMX cam in a 392 for someone else (he wanted to save $$ and labor by not doing valve springs) - his tested out at 495 rwhp. The Max Effort NA cam has more power potential than the NSR version

The MMX cams have a "rumpy" idle and have great low end and mid range power, so you don't lose any driveability
 
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