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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Question for you guys with M6 trans, i changed my Scat PCM a couple of months ago to be able to tune my vehicle. during various testing stage, i've found the car won't roast the tires in 1st gear from a roll, traction control fully off and everything. i've ben trying to change this behavior via tuning, and somebody has suggested to me that perhaps the issue is caused by a buck routine in the PCM i have now, that perhaps wasn't there in factory one. This is somehting that i know happened as well with the factory PCM, but i wanted to find out with you guys, if somehow this is something than most M6 scats will do, or if it's just mine.

To try to explain the behavior i'm experiencing, i seem to have a delay in the throttle that i'm trying to tune out, so for instance, and regardless of the gear, say you're driving at 40mph in 6th,or 5th, or 4th, or any gear really, is not speed dependant, and want to do a quick stab on the trhrottle to accelerate, nothing crazy, just a quick 1" of the thorttle down as a reference, for the amount of throttle i'm giving her to illistrate the example, there seems to be what i think is around half sec delay between the time i push the throttle, vs the time it takes for the car to move, i always thought this was just normal because of the ETC system, so my question is, is this actually normal for our cars ?

The other issue and the one i'm trying to tune out, i'll be in 1st gear under throttle at 3000rpm, so that should be around 22-22mph, TC fully off via buttom, and i stab the gas, putting the pedal to the metal as quick as i can, i'm somehow expecting all 485hp to simply over power the tires and go sideways left and right, but that's not happening, is like my Falken 275/40 AS tires are acting up as MT Drag Radials, and i think that shouldn't be the case, the car is moving like a bat of hell, and in fact it'll go a little sideways as soon as she goes to 2nd gear with the gas all the way down, but im not roasting the tires as i think i should, is this someting that you guys with the M6/stock PCM are exhibiting as well ? sometimes i get a tiny little bark when i punch her from roll in 1st gear, but it's not the actual brutal power delivery i was expecting, if i'm at a full stop, and i rev to 3000rpm and pop the clutch out, i go sideways as expected and the tires cry for mercy as expcted all the way to redline,, but this is not happening from a roll, and i don't see an active torque management value that could be causing this behavior.

I wanted to gauge what the experience should be with this vehicles bone stock and see if this delay is something that i can fix with tuning, but mostly if i can make this thing go sideways from a roll.

Thanks a lot guys.
 

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No throttle delay - stock tuning '16 SP here (M6).

I've sometimes give a bit more gas that I planned when pulling out from a side street and will get it going or be abrupt and the car rear end will snap right over...a lot of torque down low.

I wonder if there's a throttle re-learn issue at play?

Even with the M6 '09 R/T with stock and custom tune later on, had very good throttle response.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Thanks Hal, Ive done a throttle relearn 3 times, the delay at low thottle goes away, but a couple of miles later, the things relearn his way back to delay, i even loaded my factory tune back (in the 2nd PCM i have), and i can't get this thing to go sideways from a roll in 1st gear. i know the car also did the same on the factory PCM. which i found curious given the advedrtised power.

Maybe ii'll have to be doing 5000rpm or so in 1st gear, or if the street is wet, then very little trottle would have the tires spining like crazy, but on a dry surface, i can punch her at 25mph in 1st gear with TC full off, and i get nothing, i get pinned to the seat, but no tire spinning(i get a bark at times, but it's not the brutal feel i'm expecting to have with 3.90's, 6.4L engine and cheap Falken a/s tires :)), unless like i said, i have to be at a full stop, rev to 3000rpm and then pop the clutch out, while pressing the gas all the way down, in that case the tires will be overpowered and it won't stop spinning until redline. it's driving me crazy, not exactly because i want to eat my tires, but because i'm not sure what is preventing my car from using all of its power from a slow roll
 

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Thanks Hal, Ive done a throttle relearn 3 times, the delay at low thottle goes away, but a couple of miles later, the things relearn his way back to delay, i even loaded my factory tune back (in the 2nd PCM i have), and i can't get this thing to go sideways from a roll in 1st gear. i know the car also did the same on the factory PCM. which i found curious given the advertised power.
I can certain do that kind of hooning in 1st, 2nd...here in bicycle / Prius town (Portland, OR) - there soon will be 20mph speed limits on streets around here unless posted otherwise - can you say S L O W?
 

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I can certain do that kind of hooning in 1st, 2nd...here in bicycle / Prius town (Portland, OR) - there soon will be 20mph speed limits on streets around here unless posted otherwise - can you say S L O W?
So that is where the State of Confusion lies. My condolences. I dare say you do NOT fit in. Hahaha.
Back on topic. Isn't there a clutch delay valve or something and 2 pc drive shaft that gives too? I don't know, I can never get traction.
 

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My same complaint - I started a thread on this back in the summer - SAME topic. Our 485 HP powered Challengers should respond just like this when we stab the gas in 1st - this is SO cool:

https://youtu.be/LlKkds2Lhx8
 
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My same complaint - I started a thread on this back in the summer - SAME topic. Our 485 HP powered Challengers should respond just like this when we stab the gas in 1st - this is SO cool:

https://youtu.be/LlKkds2Lhx8
Sorry. No comparison. BOSS 429, 4 speed. "If" you took OFF ALL the ECU controlled torque management stuff, put on a Holley 780 double pumper with a "throttle cable" instead of the drive by wire stuff, added 3-4 points of compression with race gas in the tank, much bigger cam, you would be able to do almost exactly what that Big Bad Black BOSS 429 4 speed did. But you can cruise now with AC on, tunes a blastin' and still run pretty darn good with our 4000lb hot rods of today.>:)
 

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That's not the way my 392 manual acts I can not jab the throttle to the floor and hold it there because the rear tires just go up in smoke and the car wants to go side ways. I have to lift off the throttle to keep it on the road and roll on the power smooth and steady to keep it going straight. But that was in sport mode before Uconnect removed my engine sport mode setting now it's less responsive not as snappy I wish dodge would fix my sport mode or refund the money I paid for it so I can take that money and but a Tazer or Pedal Commander and get the throttle response back to what it should be.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
My same complaint - I started a thread on this back in the summer - SAME topic. Our 485 HP powered Challengers should respond just like this when we stab the gas in 1st - this is SO cool:

https://youtu.be/LlKkds2Lhx8
I think I posted in your thread as I had similar symptoms if not the same. I know the car moves, but it should be able to roast the tires, perhaps not like the Stang, but my good, a lot better than just the little bark I get now.

I see two issues in my logs

One, difference between running with load on the engine (foot on the gas, enough to keep steady speed or rpm), vs lifting, to give her gas to accelerate.
I don't have the delay with the 1st, regardless of the gear, if I'm holding on the gas, and I give it more, she will accelerate pretty much instantly, no delay here.

But if I lift, say i reached 50mph , take my foot out the throttle, look in the mirror, and quicky go back to the pedal pressing a little more to pass, that's the moment I feel the throttle disconnect, it's like the pedal goes death for a brief moment, then power is delivered normally.

2nd issue is being on the throttle, then stabbing the gas all the way down, she responds very quick, but power transfer is not brutal.

Ive captured the moments in logs, I'll post them tomorrow

It's interesting to see some have this issue, while others say they can't keep them straight, with one if the guys saying uconnect messed it up for him.

Ive discovered how to massage the pedal feeling in normal and sport, to a point, but haven't found the culprit yet, somebody is checking too see if there are some tables that we're missing in HPT that can control this, I'll keep you posted if there is progress.

Do you run 91 or 93 octane, for the ones that can go sideways, is it with 91 or 93?

I'm running 2* less timing than factory at wot because we only have 91 in Cali, and there is a bunch of KR at wot in the factory tune and 91, but I've tried to repeat all the tests with my factory tune, and the tires won't spin from a roll in the way I would expect, it's frustrating not knowing why, but hope to get to the bottom of this.
 

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Just have to ask and be sure....When you say TC all the way off you are holding the button down until you hear the chime and not just pressing it once correct?
I've got a 2016 and have no problem roasting the tires in 1st. The clutch delay valve will have no effect on this problem of yours, but it will make your shifting more precise, I highly recommend removing it.

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Just have to ask and be sure....When you say TC all the way off you are holding the button down until you hear the chime and not just pressing it once correct?
I've got a 2016 and have no problem roasting the tires in 1st. The clutch delay valve will have no effect on this problem of yours, but it will make your shifting more precise, I highly recommend removing it.

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Yes Steve, holding down tc button for 5-6 sec until the indicator says so, also I don’t have the CDV.

If you can test and try stabbing the pedal all the way down in 1st from 20mph, in normal and sport, then tc fully off, are the tires blowing off in all 3 modes, or only when tc is fully off? ,I’ll understand if you’re not able to replicate, no problem, just looking to see what will be different in the 2016’s that I can see in the tune, I’ve tried some of those with no changes, but perhaps I’m just looking in the wrong spot, I would have thought it was related to the way normal and sport throttle values were setup, but my normal mode is now the same as sport, and I’m not getting anywhere near to roasting the tires from a roll with those.

Also do you run 91 or 93 octane, bone stock tune correct?

Also, do you have a throttle delay during tip-in conditions? Speed up to 60mph for example, lift from the throttle, then step on the gas about 1” down or little more, do you feel the throttle disconnect? Or no delay at all? If no delay, do you feel a shock in the drivetrain?, gear won’t matter, but 5th gear will will be easier to note compared to 6th

Thanks again Steve.
 

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Sorry. No comparison. BOSS 429, 4 speed. "If" you took OFF ALL the ECU controlled torque management stuff, put on a Holley 780 double pumper with a "throttle cable" instead of the drive by wire stuff, added 3-4 points of compression with race gas in the tank, much bigger cam, you would be able to do almost exactly what that Big Bad Black BOSS 429 4 speed did. But you can cruise now with AC on, tunes a blastin' and still run pretty darn good with our 4000lb hot rods of today.>:)
Well, first off I'd take a BOSS '9 ANY DAY over my new Challenger, but that isn't the issue here. I have to disagree with you on this 'light the tires from a roll' topic. The 392 Hemi in our Challengers should be enough to allow the driver to INCINERATE the rear tires from a roll when stabbing it with traction control disengaged. Funny how some 392 owners have NO problem spinning the tires from a roll, yet others are in the same boat as me. Explain that.
 

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Yes Steve, holding down tc button for 5-6 sec until the indicator says so, also I don’t have the CDV.

If you can test and try stabbing the pedal all the way down in 1st from 20mph, in normal and sport, then tc fully off, are the tires blowing off in all 3 modes, or only when tc is fully off? ,I’ll understand if you’re not able to replicate, no problem, just looking to see what will be different in the 2016’s that I can see in the tune, I’ve tried some of those with no changes, but perhaps I’m just looking in the wrong spot, I would have thought it was related to the way normal and sport throttle values were setup, but my normal mode is now the same as sport, and I’m not getting anywhere near to roasting the tires from a roll with those.

Also do you run 91 or 93 octane, bone stock tune correct?

Also, do you have a throttle delay during tip-in conditions? Speed up to 60mph for example, lift from the throttle, then step on the gas about 1” down or little more, do you feel the throttle disconnect? Or no delay at all? If no delay, do you feel a shock in the drivetrain?, gear won’t matter, but 5th gear will will be easier to note compared to 6th

Thanks again Steve.
OK I figured you were all off but had to ask because some just think they are. I've got mine on the trailer for a test n tune this weekend but I will test things out on Monday when I get back. I have experienced the throttle lag before. And I'm completely stock engine wise except CAI and running 93.

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Thanks Steve, hope you have a lot of fun at the track.

I've been doing more research here in our forum, and i'm not the only one with the throtte lag, so at least i know the lag during tip-in may be normal, but i'm still trying to get rid of it.

The 2nd issue would be why some people can roast the tires from a roll,and some others like me can't.

I've was able to compare my 2015 stock tune to a 2016 stock m6, also M6 trans, and with the new HPT beta, i can see changes in the torque model between both models, the problem is that there are also 2016 M6 owners stating they can't break the tires loose from a roll, so why the difference in behavior ?

I was thinking to copy everything in the torque model i see from the 2016 tune into mine, and test, since i can see differences. i may do that today to observe the behavior. also waiting for a dude in HPT forum that may have more details about the issue, this may be something that could be fixed with tables with don't have access in HPT yet, so will see. in the meantime, i'll keep investigating and testing, and hopefully find the culprit/solution.
 
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Thanks Steve, hope you have a lot of fun at the track.

I've been doing more research here in our forum, and i'm not the only one with the throtte lag, so at least i know the lag during tip-in may be normal, but i'm still trying to get rid of it.

The 2nd issue would be why some people can roast the tires from a roll,and some others like me can't.

I've was able to compare my 2015 stock tune to a 2016 stock m6, also M6 trans, and with the new HPT beta, i can see changes in the torque model between both models, the problem is that there are also 2016 M6 owners stating they can't break the tires loose from a roll, so why the difference in behavior ?

I was thinking to copy everything in the torque model i see from the 2016 tune into mine, and test, since i can see differences. i may do that today to observe the behavior. also waiting for a dude in HPT forum that may have more details about the issue, this may be something that could be fixed with tables with don't have access in HPT yet, so will see. in the meantime, i'll keep investigating and testing, and hopefully find the culprit/solution.


Good luck! I'm interested.....
 

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Can someone define "roasting" the tires? I just tried all this during my lunch break. I floored it going 20mph in first gear, which is ~2k RPM, and at around 4-5k RPM I got like a .5-1 second of squealing and fish tailing toward the right. This was with 100% TC on.

For throttle response, I went 30mph in 3rd gear. I noticed about .5-1 second delay IF I was going from no throttle to some throttle. If I was going from some throttle to more throttle the delay was nearly imperceivable. Though, I will note, I notice the car doesn't seem to fully "wake" up until I hit at least 4k RPM in 3rd gear. I know there was a thread about 3rd gear delay someone where in the forums.

I have everything stock.

IMO, I remember when I first got the car having trouble controlling burn outs from a stop. I don't think I was used to the throttle sensitivity and han't driven a manual in a while. Now, I kinda feel like I've gotten used to the speed and think I really should be able to go faster in this car. I don't know, maybe just a qualitative opinion.
 

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You won't be able to get much more than that squeak of the tires with TC on. As soon as it detects the wheel spin it corrects for it.

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Can someone define "roasting" the tires? I just tried all this during my lunch break. I floored it going 20mph in first gear, which is ~2k RPM, and at around 4-5k RPM I got like a .5-1 second of squealing and fish tailing toward the right. This was with 100% TC on.

For throttle response, I went 30mph in 3rd gear. I noticed about .5-1 second delay IF I was going from no throttle to some throttle. If I was going from some throttle to more throttle the delay was nearly imperceivable. Though, I will note, I notice the car doesn't seem to fully "wake" up until I hit at least 4k RPM in 3rd gear. I know there was a thread about 3rd gear delay someone where in the forums.

I have everything stock.

IMO, I remember when I first got the car having trouble controlling burn outs from a stop. I don't think I was used to the throttle sensitivity and han't driven a manual in a while. Now, I kinda feel like I've gotten used to the speed and think I really should be able to go faster in this car. I don't know, maybe just a qualitative opinion.
The definition of "roasting" the tires while rolling in 1st gear is not only defined, but displayed in the video of the BOSS '9. Refer to video posted.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Can someone define "roasting" the tires? I just tried all this during my lunch break. I floored it going 20mph in first gear, which is ~2k RPM, and at around 4-5k RPM I got like a .5-1 second of squealing and fish tailing toward the right. This was with 100% TC on.

For throttle response, I went 30mph in 3rd gear. I noticed about .5-1 second delay IF I was going from no throttle to some throttle. If I was going from some throttle to more throttle the delay was nearly imperceivable. Though, I will note, I notice the car doesn't seem to fully "wake" up until I hit at least 4k RPM in 3rd gear. I know there was a thread about 3rd gear delay someone where in the forums.

I have everything stock.

IMO, I remember when I first got the car having trouble controlling burn outs from a stop. I don't think I was used to the throttle sensitivity and han't driven a manual in a while. Now, I kinda feel like I've gotten used to the speed and think I really should be able to go faster in this car. I don't know, maybe just a qualitative opinion.
Ty for the test, i get a quick bark at times, but it's during the initial punch in 1st, definetely longer bark with the car going sideways for a split of a sec, the moment i shift into 2nd from that 1st gear punch. I've modified some of the TM, so it doesn't come in full in Sport, makes no difference for me anyways if i'm in Sport or ESP off, as long as the car is going straight, if i'm trying to play fool around a corner, ESP comes to the rescue

In any case, you can see in the graph the behavior during that moment i'm punching the gas, maybe not everybody will understand what i'm showing here, but look at the green line vs the purple, the moment that green line peaks out, i have my foot planted to the floor, that's expected torque raising because my foot is all the way down, yet look at my TPS %, that and it takes times for the actual torque to catch up, (purple line) and when it does, i guess the power delivered is not fast enough to make the tires spin like that Mustang in the video :), that's what looking to cure, again, maybe not as brutal, but i'd like to be able to at least justify the need for drag radials during a roll punch, at the moment, the cheap AS tires i have are more than capable haha, and they shouldn't be.

MAP_good by Wrangler RSM, on Flickr

Also i don't have the issue in 3rd gear, i don't believe i had that issue, but i can always load my stock tune and check, i've seen that thread as well, i've changed some of the settings for the min amout of spark to be had when some TM correction is active in my tune, and i've also change other settings to model throttle feeling, and a bunch of other crap, and maybe one fo those changes may have helped if i had that issue, but that's not something i can recall ever having.

As of this moment, going from throttle to more throttle is fairly quick for me with no delay, just like a cable operated thottle, but going from no throttle to throttle is slow during the initial gas jab, if i roll the thottle down slowly, it does'nt feel bad at all, but a quick throttle jab, and you can think there a half second delay given how bad the delay feels , then i have the issue when going from throttle to WOT, power delivery seems to be just so smooth in 1st gear, that i'm not overpowering the tires during the initial punch all the way to redline.

Try reving to 3000-3500rpm and dumping the clutch out while giving her gas.. car should be able to do the same, or super close to that during a gas stab frrom 1st gear roll at the same rpm.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Can someone define "roasting" the tires? I just tried all this during my lunch break. I floored it going 20mph in first gear, which is ~2k RPM, and at around 4-5k RPM I got like a .5-1 second of squealing and fish tailing toward the right. This was with 100% TC on.

For throttle response, I went 30mph in 3rd gear. I noticed about .5-1 second delay IF I was going from no throttle to some throttle. If I was going from some throttle to more throttle the delay was nearly imperceivable. Though, I will note, I notice the car doesn't seem to fully "wake" up until I hit at least 4k RPM in 3rd gear. I know there was a thread about 3rd gear delay someone where in the forums.

I have everything stock.

IMO, I remember when I first got the car having trouble controlling burn outs from a stop. I don't think I was used to the throttle sensitivity and han't driven a manual in a while. Now, I kinda feel like I've gotten used to the speed and think I really should be able to go faster in this car. I don't know, maybe just a qualitative opinion.
Ty for the test, i get a quick bark at times, but it's during the initial punch in 1st, once i shift into 2nd, i get a definetely longer bark with the car going sideways for a splif of a sec,and that's about it, little better than stock in my case, but not what i'm expecting. I've modified some of the TM, so it doesn't come in full in Sport, makes no difference for me anyways if i'm in Sport or ESP off, as long as the car is going straight, if trying to play fool around a corner, ESP comes to the rescue.

In any case, you can see the behavior here during that moment i'm punching the gas, maybe not everybody will understand what i'm showing here, but look at the green line vs the purple, the moment that green line peaks out, i have my foot planted to the floor, that's expected torque raising because my foot is all the way down, yet it takes a little while for the actual torque to catch up (purple line), and when it does (look at tps%, that should the reflection of the throttle being open), i guess the power delivered is not fast enough to make the tires spin like that Mustang in the video :), that's what i'm looking to cure, again, maybe not as brutal, but i'd like to be able to at least justify the need for drag radials during a roll punch, at the moment, the cheap AS tires i have are more than capable haha, and they shouldn't be.

map_bad by Wrangler RSM, on Flickr

Also i don't have the issue in 3rd gear, i don't believe i had that issue, but i can always load my stock tune and check, i've seen that thread as well, i've changed some of the settings for the min amount of spark to be had when some TM correction is active in my tune, and i've also changed other settings to model throttle feeling, and a bunch of other crap, and maybe one of those changes may have helped if i had that issue, but that's not something i can recall ever having, perhaps the opportunity never presented itself for me to experience it, i kept the stock tune and PCM for about weeks only, before i was able to tune a new PCM.

As of this moment, going from throttle to more throttle is fairly quick for me with no delay, just like a cable operated thottle, but going from no throttle to throttle is slow during the initial gas jab, if i roll the thottle down slowly, it doesn't feel bad at all, but a quick throttle jab, and you can think there is a half second delay given how bad it feels , then i have the issue when going from throttle to WOT, power delivery seems to be just so smooth in 1st gear, that i'm not overpowering the tires during the initial punch all the way to redline.

Try reving to 3000-3500rpm and dumping the clutch out while giving her gas.. car should be able to do the same, or super close to that during a gas stab from 1st gear roll at the same rpm.
 
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