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http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f322/you-don-t-need-new-exhaust-new-mod-478585/index5.html

Post #49 on page 5 is the updated walk through.

Very intriguing and cheap mod to gain sound and keep it drone free.

I'd imagine that the change would be more apparent in a Hemi, but don't see why it wouldn't work on ours.

The resonators are the same?
My first response is - what exhaust mod works for the V8 won't necessarily work for the V6. Let's face it - a stock V8 already sounds good before any mods and it's easy to make it sound better, whereas exhaust mods to a V6 can easily ruin the sound (few V6 exhaust mods improve it). Bottom line, don't pay much attention to what works on the V8 exhaust - focus on what specifically works for the V6.

Having said all that, the post was interesting and I think worth trying for a V6. I know removing the resos on a V6 will worsen the drone and sound, but keeping them and modding them might just do the trick. So, who's going to try it?

I already have a good sounding Flowmaster catback so I can't. I'd suggest someone try this out who is already expecting to replace their system. If they try this and it doesn't work, no big deal. If it does work, they may be inclined to save the coinage and just stick with this.
 

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I was thinking the same about possibly trying it before I went and did what I wanted to do.

However, I think that changing the mid mufflers first would give a better idea on if it's worth it or not, and I don't really want to go to the shop twice if it sounds like shit.

I also don't get much time off from work, so if it did sound bad, I'd be embarrassed to drive until I was able to get back to the muffler shop.

I don't wanna be the guinea pig!! Hoping at least one or two have tried this. :D
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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I'm with @RockanRoll, performing that mod on your exhaust will have unpredictable results at best.

Now if you were to swap out your exhaust for some from a stock R/T like what the member had in that other thread, you could theoretically expect similar results from the mod. The resulting audio profile of the exhaust wouldn't be the same as what the R/T gets from the same mod, but whatever effects this mod has on the exhaust tone, it should have on your car's tone through that same exhaust system.

Now the trick there would be to find an R/T's exhaust that wasn't all cut to hell and could be used, then get it installed, and only then would you be able to baseline the sound before doing the mod. If the sound through the exhaust before modding was crappy though, that mod isn't going to de-crapify it.

Exhaust mods on the 6 cylinder engine, especially the 3.6L with its dual exhaust setup from the factory is one of the first things everyone wants to do (for understandable reasons), but it is also one of the most difficult from which satisfactory results can be obtained by just throwing money at it. There are hundred different ways to do it, from only modding the factory setup to completely replacing anything beyond the cat that came off the factory line. Deciding which one to try can be daunting at times overwhelming, I get that. That's why following the script is so important on this one.

The best approach to this is to do what someone else has already done so that you can be reasonably certain it will work for you (because their setup was identical to yours and they offered up a video of the results so you could hear for yourself). Venturing into the unknown and trying something no one else had tried yet will always end badly when modding the V6 exhaust on these cars.

(okay, maybe not ALWAYS, but if I say almost always, then you'd say, "so you're saying there's a chance...", and that's never a good attitude to take into car modding!)
 

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I'm with @RockanRoll, performing that mod on your exhaust will have unpredictable results at best.

Now if you were to swap out your exhaust for some from a stock R/T like what the member had in that other thread, you could theoretically expect similar results from the mod. The resulting audio profile of the exhaust wouldn't be the same as what the R/T gets from the same mod, but whatever effects this mod has on the exhaust tone, it should have on your car's tone through that same exhaust system.

Now the trick there would be to find an R/T's exhaust that wasn't all cut to hell and could be used, then get it installed, and only then would you be able to baseline the sound before doing the mod. If the sound through the exhaust before modding was crappy though, that mod isn't going to de-crapify it.

Exhaust mods on the 6 cylinder engine, especially the 3.6L with its dual exhaust setup from the factory is one of the first things everyone wants to do (for understandable reasons), but it is also one of the most difficult from which satisfactory results can be obtained by just throwing money at it. There are hundred different ways to do it, from only modding the factory setup to completely replacing anything beyond the cat that came off the factory line. Deciding which one to try can be daunting at times overwhelming, I get that. That's why following the script is so important on this one.

The best approach to this is to do what someone else has already done so that you can be reasonably certain it will work for you (because their setup was identical to yours and they offered up a video of the results so you could hear for yourself). Venturing into the unknown and trying something no one else had tried yet will always end badly when modding the V6 exhaust on these cars.

(okay, maybe not ALWAYS, but if I say almost always, then you'd say, "so you're saying there's a chance...", and that's never a good attitude to take into car modding!)
Yeah. I'm afraid to try new things because I don't want my exhaust to sound like garbage, yet I'm the type of person who doesn't like to copy everybody else. I like to pave my own way!!!

Are the resonators built differently on the R/T? I figure drilling holes in the resonator will add touches of a straight pipe sound to the exhaust, but keep it drone free. Swapping out the mufflers first will then accentuate THAT sound instead of the sound of the stock system. I might just have them swap the mufflers and tips, but keep the resonators on so I can mess with it. If it sounds like shit, I'll have them do a delete. I really only wanted to do one trip to the exhaust shop though! Dammit!!

Can't find a single video online for the mufflers I want on our cars. So.... right out the gate I'm not sure what it's going to sound like. Yet, I think it's going to be the best way to go.

Nuke, did you see my question in the exhaust thread? I was contemplating put a small Y pipe connector at the end of our factory X pipe (right before the mufflers) so I can use a SI/DO muffler. One of the mufflers I was considering isn't offered in a DI/DO configuration, so I thought maybe this was a possible solution. Would it end up being detrimental? The main reason I even considered this as an option is because I keep hearing that the 3.5L V6 had a beefier sound, with most people contributing that to the SI/DO configuration. I've decided on different mufflers since then, that aren't offered in duals, but was curious what your thoughts were on that idea.
 

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I don't think the 3.5 had a better sound due to the exhaust configuration SI/DO. They sound better with several configurations. I believe it's the engine itself that makes it sound better. Just MHO.

A Guy
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Yeah. I'm afraid to try new things because I don't want my exhaust to sound like garbage, yet I'm the type of person who doesn't like to copy everybody else. I like to pave my own way!!!
I hear ya, nothing wrong with that except in this context you may have to endure a crappy exhaust sound for trying something that doesn't work out, not to mention the expense of subsequent attempts at making it right.



Are the resonators built differently on the R/T? I figure drilling holes in the resonator will add touches of a straight pipe sound to the exhaust, but keep it drone free. Swapping out the mufflers first will then accentuate THAT sound instead of the sound of the stock system. I might just have them swap the mufflers and tips, but keep the resonators on so I can mess with it. If it sounds like shit, I'll have them do a delete. I really only wanted to do one trip to the exhaust shop though! Dammit!!
I can't say for sure, but I'd be surprised if they were the same. Their jobs are the same, but the stuff they have to work with (incoming sound waves' frequencies) are different. So i would expect different internal configurations based upon incoming sounds.

IMO the dual exhaust on the 6 cylinder cannot be simply modified (w/out any extra or aftermarket parts) or reconfigured for a better sound. The 3 cylinder per pipe and stock muffler/resos just wont sound good no matter the configuration. More on this below...



Can't find a single video online for the mufflers I want on our cars. So.... right out the gate I'm not sure what it's going to sound like. Yet, I think it's going to be the best way to go.
What brand/model is the muffler?



Nuke, did you see my question in the exhaust thread? I was contemplating put a small Y pipe connector at the end of our factory X pipe (right before the mufflers) so I can use a SI/DO muffler. One of the mufflers I was considering isn't offered in a DI/DO configuration, so I thought maybe this was a possible solution. Would it end up being detrimental? The main reason I even considered this as an option is because I keep hearing that the 3.5L V6 had a beefier sound, with most people contributing that to the SI/DO configuration. I've decided on different mufflers since then, that aren't offered in duals, but was curious what your thoughts were on that idea.

I am trying to remember how much space there is under there and if adding a Y pipe behind the X would even be possible. From what i can remember about when I had the exhaust on my 2011 done, you would be hard pressed for space to add the Y and a muffler in that space.

But if you were going to go the route of a Y and SI/DO, why not just replace the X pipe with the Y? Keeping the X wouldn't be gaining anything i don't think, might as well remove it if space is at a premium.

On the subject of DI/DO mufflers in the 2.25" diameter, have you considered a Jones Full Boar? That's what i did with the 3.6L in my 2011, and I loved the results (post-burn-in; pre-burn-in was bad). Do a search in the SXT section for posts created by Nuke and using JFB or Jones Full Boar as keywords, and you will find plenty of my pontifications on that particular setup as well as some links to some YouTube vids i have for judging the sound.

As far as the whole "3.5L sounds better than 3.6L " thing, lemme say this: Yes, the 3.5L can sound slightly better than the 3.6L when their exhausts are modified with aftermarket parts. However, it's not so much of difference that extreme measures should be taken to try emulate the 3.5L setup on the 3.6L, thereby possibly compromising performance in the process (or going to great expense in the pursuit of).

I don't know how much the SI/DO vs DI/DO thing plays into it, but I have read one theory that makes as much sense as any in explaining the difference (as well as which way to go when modding a true dual setup like the 3.6L has): The lower exhaust tones we all yearn for can only come about by having > 3 exhaust pulses emptying into the incoming chamber of the muffler(s). And while that goes along with the SI/DO approach, it also works for a DI/DO muffler, assuming internal design allows both inputs to empty into a single chamber.

And I admit it's only anecdotal evidence, but my own experiences support that. I've had both engines with stock exhaust, and I've modified both with the mentioned muffler configs. And even better, I used JFB mufflers both times. So the only difference other than engine and exhaust size was the input/output config of the mufflers, and I was extremely happy with the resulting sound of both.

Yes, the 3.5L was slightly deeper, but not nearly as much as some people seem to think...at least not on my cars.
 

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My idea was to add a Y-pipe adapter at the end, not an entire Y-pipe. Like this: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/jex-su6-6/overview/?cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-jones-exhaust

However, I've changed which muffler I'm going with. I was going to do the SI/DO Hooker Aerochamber, and they're available in SI/DO or singles.

Now, after extensive research, I plan on using Hooker Max Flow instead. They don't offer any duals, only singles, so the Y adapter idea is out.

Definitely don't want a shitty sound, but according to the numbers I'm seeing in comparisons online, Hooker Max Flow is exactly what I would want out of a muffler. 80db at idle, 90 at 2k RPM, 120+ at WOT. 521 CFM (same or more as straight pipe), and allows for the biggest HP gains when compared to all other popular mufflers. I'm also hearing that there is 0 drone - which was the deciding factor. In the product description it says they recommend for lower compression engines (8.5:1), but I called and spoke with one of their techs, and was told it will be fine with our engines. The low compression recommendation is (apparently) just in reference to making those engines quieter at idle.

Still deciding on whether or not I should delete the resonators, or punch some holes in them after the mufflers are installed. What you think?!
 

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My idea was to add a Y-pipe adapter at the end, not an entire Y-pipe. Like this: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/jex-su6-6/overview/?cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-jones-exhaust

However, I've changed which muffler I'm going with. I was going to do the SI/DO Hooker Aerochamber, and they're available in SI/DO or singles.

Now, after extensive research, I plan on using Hooker Max Flow instead. They don't offer any duals, only singles, so the Y adapter idea is out.

Definitely don't want a shitty sound, but according to the numbers I'm seeing in comparisons online, Hooker Max Flow is exactly what I would want out of a muffler. 80db at idle, 90 at 2k RPM, 120+ at WOT. 521 CFM (same or more as straight pipe), and allows for the *biggest HP gains when compared to all other popular mufflers*. *I'm also hearing that there is 0 drone* - which was the deciding factor. In the product description it says they recommend for lower compression engines (8.5:1), but I called and spoke with one of their techs, and was told it will be fine with our engines. The low compression recommendation is (apparently) just in reference to making those engines quieter at idle.

*Still deciding on whether or not I should delete the resonators, or punch some holes in them after the mufflers are installed. What you think?*!
You should not count on any HP/TQ gains when doing significant exhaust modifications to the stock system on a 3.6L, e.g. deleting the resos and replacing the mufflers with aftermarket ones. The stock setup might sound like crap, but dollars'll getcha donuts it is the way it is because it maximizes the HP/TQ the car can produce with the 3.6L engine. And if these mufflers somehow did manage to add HP/TQ, I would be willing to bet the gains would not be large enough to be felt across a significant portion of the RPM band.

If anything, you should probably expect to lose a couple HP or TQ from replacing the stock exhaust with aftermarket parts. But as long as you don't do anything too drastic (like go from 2.25" to 2.5"), any lost performance will likely be negligible and not even noticeable with the standard butt dyno.

Actually, the most likely output from a significant exhaust mod on the 3.6L, in terms of performance added/subtracted, is a shift in the torque curve of the engine to either flatten/shorten it slightly or move it to the right a little so that the car feels slightly more powerful in higher RPMs.
NOTE: that last scenario would not mean more power was added in the higher RPMs, only that the peak HP occurred higher up from where it was previously.


Without hearing the muffler(s) on the same setup as my car, I would be reticent to try it out myself. That's me though, and I've been known to be indecisive about things.

Also, don't forget "drone" is a relative term and every person's ears will identify its intensity differently. So if you move forward with this muffler without hearing it on a similar setup first, it's still a possibility (though admittedly not a huge one) that the result could have drone according to your ears.

I think that if you are going to replace the mufflers with aftermarket ones then you will want to delete the resos altogether. That's how the mufflers will sound their best in all likelihood.

If you want to put some holes in them just to see the effect, do it now with the stock mufflers still in place. That way when/if you get the aftermarket mufflers put on, you can have them just chop the resonators off and put straight pipe coming out of the mufflers and going all the way back to the rear bumper. If you leave the resos on with aftermarket mufflers and then put holes in them, what happens if you don't like the sound? Now you've got to go back and pay them again to do more work on the car (removing resos and replacing with straight pipe).

One last thing to make note of if you install aftermarket mufflers - don't forget there will be a burn-in period immediately after installation which must be endured on the way to getting the final sound. I don't know all the physics behind what is going on or why it's always necessary, but I know it is definitely a thing to remember. The burn-in period is different for different mufflers, but it seems like it takes about 3K miles or so to get through. And make no mistake about it, the exhaust sound while in that period is quite unpleasant, but it has to be endured. The best approach is just to drive it as much as possible that first couple of weeks to get it over with as quickly as possible.

In other words, don't make the mistake of thinking the sound the car makes when the exhaust shop pulls it around to give back to you is the sound it will always make. That's the worst it will sound actually, and it will get better with each mile, but it will take a couple thousand miles to get to where it sounds as good as it can.

But no matter which route you end up going with it, try to take some pics and record some audio/video snippets so that you can come back here and do a write-up on everything. There are surely several other members who've had similar ideas and questions but have not created a thread to ask about them yet, and I'm sure they'd love to have a thread describing what all is involved and what can be expected for their own reference and decision-making/hand-wringing.

Good luck with it!

Nuke
 

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You should not count on any HP/TQ gains when doing significant exhaust modifications to the stock system on a 3.6L, e.g. deleting the resos and replacing the mufflers with aftermarket ones. The stock setup might sound like crap, but dollars'll getcha donuts it is the way it is because it maximizes the HP/TQ the car can produce with the 3.6L engine. And if these mufflers somehow did manage to add HP/TQ, I would be willing to bet the gains would not be large enough to be felt across a significant portion of the RPM band.

If anything, you should probably expect to lose a couple HP or TQ from replacing the stock exhaust with aftermarket parts. But as long as you don't do anything too drastic (like go from 2.25" to 2.5"), any lost performance will likely be negligible and not even noticeable with the standard butt dyno.

Actually, the most likely output from a significant exhaust mod on the 3.6L, in terms of performance added/subtracted, is a shift in the torque curve of the engine to either flatten/shorten it slightly or move it to the right a little so that the car feels slightly more powerful in higher RPMs.
NOTE: that last scenario would not mean more power was added in the higher RPMs, only that the peak HP occurred higher up from where it was previously.


Without hearing the muffler(s) on the same setup as my car, I would be reticent to try it out myself. That's me though, and I've been known to be indecisive about things.

Also, don't forget "drone" is a relative term and every person's ears will identify its intensity differently. So if you move forward with this muffler without hearing it on a similar setup first, it's still a possibility (though admittedly not a huge one) that the result could have drone according to your ears.

I think that if you are going to replace the mufflers with aftermarket ones then you will want to delete the resos altogether. That's how the mufflers will sound their best in all likelihood.

If you want to put some holes in them just to see the effect, do it now with the stock mufflers still in place. That way when/if you get the aftermarket mufflers put on, you can have them just chop the resonators off and put straight pipe coming out of the mufflers and going all the way back to the rear bumper. If you leave the resos on with aftermarket mufflers and then put holes in them, what happens if you don't like the sound? Now you've got to go back and pay them again to do more work on the car (removing resos and replacing with straight pipe).

One last thing to make note of if you install aftermarket mufflers - don't forget there will be a burn-in period immediately after installation which must be endured on the way to getting the final sound. I don't know all the physics behind what is going on or why it's always necessary, but I know it is definitely a thing to remember. The burn-in period is different for different mufflers, but it seems like it takes about 3K miles or so to get through. And make no mistake about it, the exhaust sound while in that period is quite unpleasant, but it has to be endured. The best approach is just to drive it as much as possible that first couple of weeks to get it over with as quickly as possible.

In other words, don't make the mistake of thinking the sound the car makes when the exhaust shop pulls it around to give back to you is the sound it will always make. That's the worst it will sound actually, and it will get better with each mile, but it will take a couple thousand miles to get to where it sounds as good as it can.

But no matter which route you end up going with it, try to take some pics and record some audio/video snippets so that you can come back here and do a write-up on everything. There are surely several other members who've had similar ideas and questions but have not created a thread to ask about them yet, and I'm sure they'd love to have a thread describing what all is involved and what can be expected for their own reference and decision-making/hand-wringing.

Good luck with it!

Nuke
Going from 2.25 to 2.5 will be detrimental? I didn't know that, and planned to do exactly that. Why would I lose some hp/tq by opening up the pipe a bit? I'm not expecting to get massive gains, but I would assume a much higher flow muffler (like the Max Flow) will increase performance a little bit.

I too am very skeptical about putting on the mufflers without hearing them on our cars. I honestly don't want to do it without hearing them first, but I suppose I can be the guinea pig for this one since I haven't seen anybody even mention them for the 3.6L. I've been researching, listening, and watching videos for like 6-7 months now. I think it's time to just do something and see how it goes. I believe my decision is informed enough that I won't be massively disappointed, but still fear the shit sounding exhaust. Lol!

Every testimonial I've seen for Max Flows have said "no drone". I agree with you that "drone" may be different for each person, but literally not a single person (from what I've read) has said there is any drone. Hooker also claims that their mufflers sound the same from day one....so there's an implied no burn in period. From all the research I've done, all the forums I've read, this literally seems like the perfect muffler. I realize that things that seem too good to be true typically are, but I'm seriously hard pressed to find any negatives about these mufflers. Almost baffling that nobody here has used them.

I also agree that I should punch some holes in them resos before I do anything and see how it goes, but I'm lazy, pressed for time, and probably not the right person to drill them shits! LOL!

Appreciate the insight Nuke. I'll try to document and video any changes I do make for all you ninjas. Hopefully this is not a fail in the making. :surprise:
 

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Going from 2.25 to 2.5 will be detrimental? I didn't know that, and planned to do exactly that. Why would I lose some hp/tq by opening up the pipe a bit? I'm not expecting to get massive gains, but I would assume a much higher flow muffler (like the Max Flow) will increase performance a little bit.

I too am very skeptical about putting on the mufflers without hearing them on our cars. I honestly don't want to do it without hearing them first, but I suppose I can be the guinea pig for this one since I haven't seen anybody even mention them for the 3.6L. I've been researching, listening, and watching videos for like 6-7 months now. I think it's time to just do something and see how it goes. I believe my decision is informed enough that I won't be massively disappointed, but still fear the shit sounding exhaust. Lol!

Every testimonial I've seen for Max Flows have said "no drone". I agree with you that "drone" may be different for each person, but literally not a single person (from what I've read) has said there is any drone. Hooker also claims that their mufflers sound the same from day one....so there's an implied no burn in period. From all the research I've done, all the forums I've read, this literally seems like the perfect muffler. I realize that things that seem too good to be true typically are, but I'm seriously hard pressed to find any negatives about these mufflers. Almost baffling that nobody here has used them.

I also agree that I should punch some holes in them resos before I do anything and see how it goes, but I'm lazy, pressed for time, and probably not the right person to drill them shits! LOL!

Appreciate the insight Nuke. I'll try to document and video any changes I do make for all you ninjas. Hopefully this is not a fail in the making. :surprise:
That "2.25 to 2.5" statement was a poor choice of examples on my part...I actually wanted to use it in proposing a different hypothetical scenario, but it just got looped into that paragraph's thought and lost in the shuffle, and ultimately it was left dangling there like a turd in a punch bowl unfortunately. Thank you for calling me out on my poor choice of words. :thumbsup:

Honestly, it's not that significant of a change, I agree. But I firmly believe it has the ability to alter the car's performance in such a way that it can be a) easily felt with the butt dyno, but more importantly b) affect the area of performance most critical to these cars - the low end torque output/acceleration from a dead stop. Now, "ability" is the operative word there. I am not saying that change will absolutely have such negative effects, but the possibility certainly does exist due to the unique equation in which this particular variable is being used (heavy car/high gearing/low torque output).

And while I would love to expound on that some more, I have a 3 hour meeting to attend now. So...if I do not end up hanging myself at any point during this meeting, I will come back and finish up my thoughts on this topic and we can go from there...

But if I do end up hanging myself, I want it to be known that it could have all been avoided if management would listen to me and reduce the number of meetings/conference calls I have to attend on any given week. I keep saying, I'm almost at a breaking point, will this finally be it??? :blowingup:

<to be continued...?>
 

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Unless something is proven, it is a crap shoot changing size. The engineers designed the stock exhaust for the engine...but they also have other, non performance issues to design for. It's about exhaust flow, velocity, pulses, etc. You want the exhaust to scavenge the exhaust from the engine, and the pulses to not interfere with each other as well. With no other mods will the size change do any good? Any bad? Facilitate further mods (not much you can do bolt on on the V6 except a supercharger, or turbo(s) ). For our cars, with stock engines, it's all about the sound with exhaust. If it gives you the desired sound, and does not HURT performance, you are golden. If it adds anything, that's a bonus ;)

A Guy
 

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I owned a 1970 Challenger until 3 years ago. The old school thinking was, as the exhaust system got wider, you lost the low end some, but it would help you at the high end.

We are talking a V-6 here. I know 1/4 inch doesn't seem like much, but with a 6, maybe it is??
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Losing low end from going up in pipe size is a common misconception from what I've gathered.

The whole "back pressure" thing is apparently bullshit.

One of the things we have to take into consideration with the stock exhaust is that they also had a budget. Seems they went 2.25" to save money. If I go up to 2.5" from the mufflers to the tips and cut the resonators, I'll have reduced some weight by dropping them suitcases, and opened it up a bit. Should be good, boys. At least I hope so....I really don't want to be the guy with the shit exhaust. LOL
 

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So you are going to give it a try??
 

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So you are going to give it a try??
If I can get somebody more inclined to drill the holes before I change the mufflers, yeah, I'll try it.

If not, I don't think so.

Luckily for me I have three shops of certified techs. Somebody there has to have some exhaust experience, eh?!
 

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Losing low end from going up in pipe size is a common misconception from what I've gathered.

The whole "back pressure" thing is apparently bullshit.
Neither are incorrect, but it depends on the situation. As a blanket statement they are not true, but both can certainly be correct.

A Guy
 

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Neither are incorrect, but it depends on the situation. As a blanket statement they are not true, but both can certainly be correct.

A Guy
Anything I've read or watched that has actually done a comparison shows increases only, for both torque and hp.

Is there something I missed or should read/watch? Is there something specific about our cars that would make going from 2.25 to 2.5 a bad idea?
 
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