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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm about to do the 6.4 cam swap and lt headers . . . . I live in TX and the installer is recommending going catless, says that will give me up to 20hp. first I'd like to know what others can tell me about hp difference between these two options. the second and probably more important what are the long term aspects in regard to state inspection. I'm told that as long as there is no CEL they don't do the "snif" test on newer cars. any input is appreciated . . . . this is a big step for me and I want to do it right . . . . but obviously want to gain as much HP as I can
 

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Keep in mind if you go catless your exhaust will smell awful. Inspector will notice that easily.

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I beg to differ. I'm running catless with JBA shortys on my Vortech supercharged 5.7 R/T with a Johan tune. Hardly any different smell at all.
 

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Depends on how the tune works. If the tune just turns the light off then you still won't pass inspection. Your cars computer needs to show a "ready" state. Now if the tune fakes the "ready" state of your O2 sensors then you're good to go.
 

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Nothing like the smell of a catless performance car! Good old fashioned muscle! :sneaky:
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
ok, great stuff so far, what about the HP difference, if any?
 

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I was catless for a year on a 392. I was running the B&G ECU which had the rear 02s turned off.
I was maybe .05 seconds and up to 1MPH faster in the 1/4 but it smelled terrible. I felt sorry for people behind me in drive throughs and red lights so I put the SRT Cats back on.
Chances are they will plug into your OBD and do a visual for the cats when you get it inspected which means you will need all sensors in the ready state to pass. You can always swap back to your stock tune and put your stock mids back on for inspection as longs as the LTs don't pop a cel.
I have no idea if the 6.4 cam will cause cels with your stock tune.
 

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Catless vs high flow...the hp difference won't be a ton...maybe a couple percent max. So on an RT I'd guess 5 hp. You will gain a few going to high flow...and a few more catless. 20hp? Not in today's cars.

Personally I went catless because I had intended to put a supercharger on and needed max flow and didn't want to risk cat failure. Smell wise yes you can tell a difference but I kinda like the "rawness" of it...sound also...more raw and likely about 20-30% louder going no cats. High flows will open sound up some, not near as much as without them completely.

Now, readiness on the tune and 02 sensors supposedly can be fixed to pass...but not certain how...otherwise you will fail inspection. BUT it can be done.
 

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I run catless and wouldn't change a thing. Sounds way better and there is hardly any smell.
 

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For catless to pass emissions, you'll need to fool the computer into thinking the O2 sensors are working properly. This means you can't just simply "turn them off".

All I did to keep my car from throwing CEL codes after installlling catless mids was to install antifoulers. Super easy to do, and it works! Just don't use too much steel wool. Here are the instructions. Dodge Charger Forums - View Single Post - Gutted stock cats vs. High flow cats - whats the difference?

The non fouler mod fools the pcm so that it shows the cats are still working properly.Shutting off the o2 sensors with the Diablo doesn't let you pass smog inspection,you need to have 02's on.
If you want to do this go to the help section in your local auto parts store(Autozone).Get the spark plug non foulers.The part # is 42002(18mm) get two packs for $4 bucks a pack.They come two in a pack.Get some steel wool,1/2 steel drill bit & some anti seize.Drill out two of them & don't touch the inside threads while your drilling or you won't be able to screw in your o2 sensor.Take the steel wool with the two you didn't drill out & stuff it loosely in the small hole,the steel wool is a filter like the cats.Put your anti seize on the two you drilled out on the outside threads & screw into the two you just packed with the steel wool.Screw in the non foulers into the o2 placements using anti seize.Then screw in your o2's using anti seize but make sure you don't get anti seize on o2 sensors.DONE,no codes. My pics are a little blury but you should get the idea.










 

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I got mine inspected today... finally. I went to one place and he asked if i had cats i said yes. so he goes and looks and sees the high flows. says he won't put a sticker on it unless the DPS okays the high flows. went down the street and they were too busy drooling on my car to care.

keep in mind this is in a county that doesn't do emissions testing and the one guy still wouldn't pass it with high flows.
 

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no a sound investment for a street car, imo; lots of $$$ for no substantial gains as what i am reading; it you want to play get some cutouts and drive your car between 3.5k and 6.5k to take advantage of the upgrade; catless gives you 2 extra hp, what for then?

ODP
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
thanks everyone . . . . ok I heard something else today that bears vetting . . . the headers increase the underhood temps quite a bit. does this heat have any affect on the other components (especially electronic). I was told in 3-5 years I can expect issues to arise.
 

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i track my car on my under hood temp even with a 180 stat bakes my fuses on the all in one board box in the engine compartment; it has a name and i am blanking....

this all in one board is filled with electronics and having this under extreme heat is not advisable; this is a poor design from Chrysler

after i left pocono i blew two fuses in the rear because it was way too hot in that box so now i am cooling them down and removed all the stuff in the trunk as well as the lid on the fuse box to keep relays and fuses at 80/100 deg of ambient temp

i have yet to find a under hood solution for my fuse box....i open it up after each track session

under hood high temp will increase engine block running temp and increase air manifold temp and fuel temp inside the fuel ramps; all of these will rob you from horse power

u can ceramic coat your headers and it will reduce the heat but it is added costs and i really don't see the benefits unless you race and a have a race hood with added airflow

don's use exhaust pipe wrap on headers as the contained heat will rise above and beyond metal tolerances that will melt your headers in a bunch

it is for bikers only...harley baby!

ODP
 
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I got mine inspected today... finally. I went to one place and he asked if i had cats i said yes. so he goes and looks and sees the high flows. says he won't put a sticker on it unless the DPS okays the high flows. went down the street and they were too busy drooling on my car to care.

keep in mind this is in a county that doesn't do emissions testing and the one guy still wouldn't pass it with high flows.
This is why I went JBA shortys on my R/T instead of long tubes, as my stock catted mid pipes will bolt right up incase the inspectors begin looking for cats. As it stands now, most places where I live are only plugging under the dash, so my catless mids haven't been discovered. Should this change, or if I move to a more strick emission area, temporarily installing the catted OEM mids is only a 30 min swap.
 

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i track my car on my under hood temp even with a 180 stat bakes my fuses on the all in one board box in the engine compartment; it has a name and i am blanking....

this all in one board is filled with electronics and having this under extreme heat is not advisable; this is a poor design from Chrysler

after i left pocono i blew two fuses in the rear because it was way too hot in that box so now i am cooling them down and removed all the stuff in the trunk as well as the lid on the fuse box to keep relays and fuses at 80/100 deg of ambient temp

i have yet to find a under hood solution for my fuse box....i open it up after each track session

under hood high temp will increase engine block running temp and increase air manifold temp and fuel temp inside the fuel ramps; all of these will rob you from horse power

u can ceramic coat your headers and it will reduce the heat but it is added costs and i really don't see the benefits unless you race and a have a race hood with added airflow

don's use exhaust pipe wrap on headers as the contained heat will rise above and beyond metal tolerances that will melt your headers in a bunch

it is for bikers only...harley baby!

ODP

I'm getting Kooks LT/Mids next week. Luke said a good quality metal like Kooks really doesn't need coating. I'm not tracking the car. It's one I drive when the weather is nice, and then I'm on it. Will I be ok with under hood temps, especially electronics, with no coatings?


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I'm getting Kooks LT/Mids next week. Luke said a good quality metal like Kooks really doesn't need coating. I'm not tracking the car. It's one I drive when the weather is nice, and then I'm on it. Will I be ok with under hood temps, especially electronics, with no coatings?


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if it is Luke from Steve White i would follow the recommendation; he is a true racer and knows what he is talking about

you will be fine if not tracking the car;

when tracking i am speaking of driving for 27 miles (1 session, 4 in a day) at an average of 85 mph, with a constant rpm range between 4k and 6.5k, downshifting, braking, oil engine reaching 270 deg and fans blowing the crap of out themselves under a 180 stat and an ECT still reaching >215 deg under max airflow;

then your fuse box is consequently hot and all relays will give you the impression they are melting when touching them w/ bare skin

under street condition, and unless you find yourself in the strong desire to be the "Rock" in fast and furious, you should be fine;

the LT kooks are the best; congrats!!

these babies are coming my way once i upgrade to racing heads, over sized valves with a 274 cam and a straight pipe manifold; then the LT set up for me makes lots of sense

enjoy your ride Teddy P!!
you will most likely see me one day on the side of LIE 495 with a twisted in a bunch drive shaft...lol

Cheers from sunny Amsterdam, NL

ODP:banger:
 

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if it is Luke from Steve White i would follow the recommendation; he is a true racer and knows what he is talking about



you will be fine if not tracking the car;



when tracking i am speaking of driving for 27 miles (1 session, 4 in a day) at an average of 85 mph, with a constant rpm range between 4k and 6.5k, downshifting, braking, oil engine reaching 270 deg and fans blowing the crap of out themselves under a 180 stat and an ECT still reaching >215 deg under max airflow;



then your fuse box is consequently hot and all relays will give you the impression they are melting when touching them w/ bare skin



under street condition, and unless you find yourself in the strong desire to be the "Rock" in fast and furious, you should be fine;



the LT kooks are the best; congrats!!



these babies are coming my way once i upgrade to racing heads, over sized valves with a 274 cam and a straight pipe manifold; then the LT set up for me makes lots of sense



enjoy your ride Teddy P!!

you will most likely see me one day on the side of LIE 495 with a twisted in a bunch drive shaft...lol



Cheers from sunny Amsterdam, NL



ODP:banger:

Haaaaa, nice bro! Yes, Luke from Steve Whites. And no, I ain't the Rock, nor do I drive the car in the street the way you do on the track. Quick short bursts is all. If ever you do find your self coming to Long Island and the dreaded I-495 LIE PM me prior to your trip. I'll give you my cell #, show ya around, help ya out if you need. Peace out my my brother. And thanks.


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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
great info guys! I appreciate it . . . I am/was (not married to) American Racing LT Headers . . . . any info on their performance?
 

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Hemipowerv8

2012 Challenger SRT8 392 M6 - 502 whp
GO: Flowmaster catback - Trinity custom tune - catch can - Nitto Invo 315/35 rear on MT SC-5 wheels 20x10.5 rear, RE front & rear strut tower brace - LMI CAI - 180 degree T-stat - Mopar lowering springs - Eibach sway bars - ARH LT headers - MM ported heads - API 90mm tb - ported intake manifold - 274 Comp cam

Have you had that monster to the track yet? You may the only N/A'd 392 M6 that runs 11s...
502 WHP is stout as hell... 70 more than my pig, that would be fun...
 
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