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Every week there is a thread like this. I am tired of addressing them. If you have to ask or you have to be convinced to buy a Challenger . . . . go buy the 5.0 - hands down the best car out there in every sense of the word.
Amen , my wife told me last night the stang looks like a teenage girls car LOL !
 

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Ford can get almost the same power out of a 5.0 that we get from a 6.4....why?
Peak power is not the same as available power across the entire RPM band. An engine can be tuned for a broad and useable power band, or it can be tuned to concentrate more of its power at the top of the RPM range.

If you overlay the two torque curves (realizing that HP is just a mathematical expression of torque), you will see the 6.4 makes more power everywhere, and a LOT more power from 2000-5000 RPM, where these engines spend most of their life. I continue to be astonished at the flexibility and roll-on power of the 392 in 4th gear from as little as 1500 RPM.

Toss the 392 into a 3600 pound Mustang and you'd have an 11 second car on your hands easy.
 

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The thing that interests me the most about this latest horsepower war, is that the cars involved are only going incrementally faster. No matter how you slice it, the average person is not able to use a true 500 horsepower car with any degree of safety. The more power produced, the more torque management and traction control you see. You keep adding claimed power to these cars, weights continue to increase, too, and the cars are not going that much faster. My Viper is "only" 505 horsepower, and it is an animal that looks for a chance to kill me everytime I push it. No traction control, just driver, machine, and 500 real horspower. An unbridled 500 or 600 hp car is going to run 9-10 sec et's if allowed to if set up for drag use, not struggle to see the good side of 12.50. We have a factory drag pack Challenger here now with the 600 or so hp v10, and it runs easy 9.40's! Despite the claims year to year, street cars for the average guy are not going to get a whole lot faster, and for good reason, too. Thanks.
 

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We have a factory drag pack Challenger here now with the 600 or so hp v10, and it runs easy 9.40's!
I think that we would be pretty naive to think that the drag pack Challenger's v10 ONLY puts out 600hp and runs "easy" 9.40s. I don't think it is even possible for a 3000 Lb (not including the driver) car to run 9.40s with only 600 hp!

Anyway, I'd buy a v10 Challenger if the price was comparable to a Shelby GT500. Anything over that price and I'd say it's outta my league.
 

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Except for a Dodge Power Wagon pickup. back in 1980, I have not owned any new Chrysler products after that. Since then I have owned cars such as several 5.0 Mustangs in the 80's, a new Buick GN, an new 87 Vette and a couple Iroc Camaro's (for the ex wife). Since then I have not bought any true performance cars from the late 90's until present day but In have kept a very close eye on the domestic offerings for the last ten years. Once I laid eyes on the new Challenger in 2008, I was fairly certain I would own one soon. But then the horsepower wars heated up and the 6.1 SRT8 while being a wonderful car, ended up 3rd behind the new Coyote powered Mustang GT and the Camaro SS. This was largely due to weight. In 2011, Dodge upped the ante and while many times in previous years the car magazines put the SRT8 head to head with the Mustang GT and Camaro SS, this year they have not done so. instead Road and Track pits the 392 Challenger against a Shelby GT350 with 600+ HP that is almost double the price, However from my perspective, I chose the 392 Challenger because not only does it offer the best retro styling, but it is truly a ultra comfortable substantial muscle car that fits my 6'4 1/2" and 265 pound frame extremely well unlike the Mustang (an excellent machine for sure ) which made my large body claustrophobic, or the Camaro which had the worse sight lines and cheapest interior I have ever seen. And in 2011, the new 392 engine totally closes the gap on the previous performance differences. I only wish the car magazines would repeat their previous pony car shootout using the same cars they used previously, meaning a 2011 Mustang GT, a 2011 Camaro SS and a 2011 Challenger SRT8. I truly believe this would be a great battle, in which the Challenger would do well. Before the naysayers jump in, remember that this is the 3 car comparison that the magazines have run in the past. That is why I am not stressing over 2012 offerings from Ford or GM as I believe Dodge will respond in proper time. In the meantime, I am very pleased with my decision to have ordered a SRT8 392 Challenger, no matter what Chevrolet is coming out with in 2012. In many ways (looks and comfort especially), I believe our Challengers stand in a class of their own.

 

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Naive, or not. I don't know. If 600 hp in a Challenger drag pack doesn't work for you, how about 245hp in a v6 that runs 12.60 or so. I own that one, and plenty of others have, too. Let's say the GN is underated, at what, MAYBE 300 hp for real, and it weighs 3400 lbs or so. So, I shouldn't need and extra 200hp to cover 600 lbs of extra weight to run the same et. Regardless of factory hp ratings, not all of the promised power is available across all conditions in these new cars. You get various amounts at chosen times, at best. The same thing is going on in new pickups, too, with more and more rated hp and torque, but not much real change in the performance of the vehicle. Good time to be buying performance cars, for sure, though. Plenty of credible offerings from all mfgs. I'd just not get too hung up in rated hp these days, and just look at the total package. When you do that, it is clear that the Challenger is a step above the competition in terms of being a real car that can be used everyday. Thanks, Counterman.
 

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Naive, or not... how about 245hp in a v6 that runs 12.60 or so. I own that one, and plenty of others have, too.
Ok, I'll be your "huckleberry".

I've been a Turbo Buick guy since I first laid my eyes on one back when I was in HS. My first turbo buick was an '87 GN. My second, and current, turbo Buick is this one:


So, tell us about this "245hp" v6 that runs 12.60 or so. Especially since there was a "276hp" one that could, as best, run 13.30s.

(Noting that "245hp" is stock for a 87 GN & Turbo Regal and "276hp" is stock for a 87 GNX.)
 

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Gr8srt8, with all due respect, I believe you and I are different pages here. My old GN with just filter, cat delete, and chip ran mid 12's all day, like many others. Not emplying that it is/was stock, or anything special. Sorry for the lack of clarity in my post. Still, no way it put more than 245-250 hp to the ground, given the stock 245 at the motor and the minor adds it had at the time. Really strong, mid 11 sec TR's get the job done with only mid 300's to the tires, but you know that also. Not trying to start trouble here, or to knock any of the new wave of performance cars out there now. Just stating that factory hp numbers don't necessarily figure in a linear fashion these days, and that the overall performance of these cars is often a function of factory computer parameters set to make big numbers, but with dampened characteristics that protect the drivers at those levels. Thanks, Counterman.
 

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I am a gm fan but if you want top performance get an ACR Viper. yup it ONLY has 600hp but it beat the ZR1 with 640hp at the famous tracks.

you can get a 2008 600hp viper for a little more than what I paid for my 2011 SRT challenger. I need 4 seats thats why I have this very nice car.
 

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The thing that interests me the most about this latest horsepower war, is that the cars involved are only going incrementally faster. No matter how you slice it, the average person is not able to use a true 500 horsepower car with any degree of safety. The more power produced, the more torque management and traction control you see. You keep adding claimed power to these cars, weights continue to increase, too, and the cars are not going that much faster. My Viper is "only" 505 horsepower, and it is an animal that looks for a chance to kill me everytime I push it. No traction control, just driver, machine, and 500 real horspower. An unbridled 500 or 600 hp car is going to run 9-10 sec et's if allowed to if set up for drag use, not struggle to see the good side of 12.50. We have a factory drag pack Challenger here now with the 600 or so hp v10, and it runs easy 9.40's! Despite the claims year to year, street cars for the average guy are not going to get a whole lot faster, and for good reason, too. Thanks.
Well said.
 

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I think Dodge isn't naive. They keep improving the correct #'s for street usage. That is to say, 470 lbs/ft of torque.

The horsepower #'s are great and all but for street usage in the states it doesn't mean much. Maybe the autobahn but that's a different market of cars altogether.

For racing around the track, Mustangs are leading the pack. They're smaller, lighter and more nibble than a Challenger. Chevrolet is starting to realize the need for a forced induction vehicle and playing catchup.

For eating up the drag strip, the 9 second drag pak Challenger has this covered.

For cruising the streets and highway, within legal limits and with style, the magazines and reviews all point to Challenger.

I think the place Dodge needs to rethink in terms of marketing is reducing the price so that it's cost competitive.
 

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IMO what Dodge lacks is the performance parts that could be added at the factory or dealer covered by warranty. Im looking into a special ordered 2012 Mustang GT 6spd. 3.73 gears, and factory installed supercharger.Bare bones interior, stock 18 wheels. And Brembos also. Msrp. appox. 37.5k w/ 3/36 factory warranty. we'll see what happens,
 

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Discussion Starter #34
IMO what Dodge lacks is the performance parts that could be added at the factory or dealer covered by warranty. Im looking into a special ordered 2012 Mustang GT 6spd. 3.73 gears, and factory installed supercharger.Bare bones interior, stock 18 wheels. And Brembos also. Msrp. appox. 37.5k w/ 3/36 factory warranty. we'll see what happens,
YES YES AND YES. DID I SAY YES?!?! Toyota did it with a supercharger... Ford now does it... Dodge, instead of playing catch-up, why not actually be "ahead" of the curve (well, actually, still behind in this regard, but don't be last).

Then again, to safely add a blower to these engines, that'd mean Dodge would have to cough up forged internals...
 

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IMO what Dodge lacks is the performance parts that could be added at the factory or dealer covered by warranty. Im looking into a special ordered 2012 Mustang GT 6spd. 3.73 gears, and factory installed supercharger.Bare bones interior, stock 18 wheels. And Brembos also. Msrp. appox. 37.5k w/ 3/36 factory warranty. we'll see what happens,
A base 5.0 with only the brembos and 3.73 gears is 32k.

Cheapest supercharger kit with included ECU programing per the ford website is 7.2k.

To keep the warranty you must install at a ford dealer at whatever hourly rate and number of hours they want.

So 39.2k + probably another 1k or so in labor.

Now we're talking about a car thats 40-41k with poor resale value relative to amount invested due it being a modified car. This is assuming you pay MSRP however, but I haven't seen many discounts on the 5.0's.

Alternately I will be paying right at that upper guess number for my no options 392.

So that route gets you similar power, just in a smaller modified car.

Challenger wins for me. :bigthumb:
 

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Discussion Starter #36
A base 5.0 with only the brembos and 3.73 gears is 32k.

Cheapest supercharger kit with included ECU programing per the ford website is 7.2k.

To keep the warranty you must install at a ford dealer at whatever hourly rate and number of hours they want.

So 39.2k + probably another 1k or so in labor.

Now we're talking about a car thats 40-41k with poor resale value relative to amount invested due it being a modified car. This is ***uming you pay MSRP however, but I haven't seen many discounts on the 5.0's.

Alternately I will be paying right at that upper guess number for my no options 392.

So that route gets you similar power, just in a smaller modified car.

Challenger wins for me. :bigthumb:
Points well taken, however the mods done through Ford are warrantied... as for poor resale, all of these cars (Carmaro, Challenger and Mustang) have poor resale values... I've been offered $18000 at one point for my 07 SRT8 on a trade and its stock... I paid about $41000 3+ years ago, and my car has 25000 miles on it.

We all know you pay to play, and with any of these cars, modified or not, you pay dearly.
 

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as for poor resale, all of these cars (Carmaro, Challenger and Mustang) have poor resale values... I've been offered $18000 at one point for my 07 SRT8 on a trade and its stock... I paid about $41000 3+ years ago, and my car has 25000 miles on it.
Poor Resale values? :scratchhead: In March of this year, I received $34,300 TRADE-IN value for my 11k mile '09 Challenger SRT8. That car originally stickered for around $42k and I bought it for just under $40k brand new back in Feb '09...
 

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I got 32,500.00 for my 2009 SRT 8 and it had 33,000 miles on it. Now the Charger resale value has tanked over the past two years, but the Challenger holds it's value pretty well.
 

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Poor Resale values? :scratchhead: In March of this year, I received $34,300 TRADE-IN value for my 11k mile '09 Challenger SRT8. That car originally stickered for around $42k and I bought it for just under $40k brand new back in Feb '09...
I was just quoted $35,000 trade-in towards an '11 IE for my 800 mi nearly brand new '10 SRT8. (Fully documented / loaded and never sat on the dealer lot)

I don't see joining the horsepower wars for that number - I'll be stuck with 425 hp.
 

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I see tons of posts about how other manufacturers are producing cars with more power than our beloved SRT8's. There are 1000's of Mopar Maniacs here and elsewhere who are perpetually agonizing over the fact that Ford and GM are making cars with more power... and we, as Mopar people, are left to either take a backseat or mod. A new "top of the line" SRT with a 6.4 is roughly equal in performance to a Mustang GT... different cars, I know... but the fact remains...

We have to admit, Dodge is NOT in the horsepower war currently being waged. Ford OWNS this war, GM is struggling to maintain 2nd place, and Dodge is sitting the bench, eating hotdogs.

Rationale for above:

1. Ford: GT500 @ 500 HP
2. Dodge: 6.1 @ 425 HP
3. GM: 6.2 @ 426 HP
4. GM: ZL1 @ 550+ HP
5. Dodge: 6.4 @ 470 HP (advertised - and advertised is key here)

*then before GM even releases/produces the ZL1, Ford states the new GT500 will put out 600+ HP... the Boss 302 has 440 HP and is lighter than the SRT... and the supposed Z28 will likely match or surpass the Boss... and we know the 5.0 engine in base GT form is underrated as well...

We know the 6.4 puts out AROUND 500 HP from dyno testing... but even that, by today's standards is JUST the entry fee into this HP War. AND Dodge doesn't advertise 500 HP! If they were in it to win it, Dodge would advertise the facts.

Of course, SRT's offer more than just thrills. They're better looking (opinion) and they offer more room, amenities, etc. Grand touring cars in a sense, with a musclular persona.

But if Dodge were serious... they'd not only need to produce a car with 550+ horsepower (to compete with a GT500), but they'd need to bump that up a bit because the SRT's weigh quite a bit more than the "competition".

While other manufacturers (especially Ford) are making LEAPS and BOUNDS in the HP and engineering department, Dodge seems content to add a few ponies and flatten a curve; but the GT 500 has a nice flat curve also, but with at least 50 more HP (100 more for the next model year) and less weight.

Most of us are repeat customers of Dodge and it seems Dodge listens, to a degree, on what we want from them... which, to put it bluntly, is to win the HP War.

Forget all this forced induction excuses... the final numbers are what matters. Lets face it.

Dodge has $$$ issues and who knows what other problems they have... but if Ford and Government Motors can do it, why not "us"?!?!

Dodge spent the $$$ to certify and produce the 6.4... why didn't they pull out the stops and up the displacement or go forced induction?! Either way, they'd still have to spend the $$$ on a new engine. And they'd pass the cost onto the customer anyway (who would pay the extra $$$ for a much improved product). It seems to me as if Dodge keeps putting bandages on a wound instead of truly healing the problem.

The solution is forced induction and/or the 426... they have the ability but have chosen not to utilize it. Emissions should be a non-issue as Ford and GM are managing...

I find it ironic we "complain" about 470 HP being too little... but its a reflection of the market and the competition...

How do we, as Mopar fans, get Dodge to LISTEN once and for all?
Well....I for one won't let this post give me a buzz kill on my 392 purchase....I thought the reason for purchasing a new toy is the overall experience it brings, not just horsepower numbers....in any case, I would be proud to go head to head with a mustang 5.0 and keep up, possibly even win during an exhibition of power on the freeway :) I cannot in any way be jealous of the mustang because it is a totally different car and I feel good that I have reached a point in my life where I can afford to buy something a little more special instead of driving something that "everyone else has". I know some mustang owners and I am sure there are more that pay respect to our challengers and what they can do. The 392 seems to be holding up well as a N/A competitor, the supercharged competition should be in a whole new class anyways, I wouldn't want a dodge factory blower because I have faith that the right aftermarket blower with the right mods will make 600 RWHP, which is something I think a factory unit would not attain. These are just my thoughts and I respect your position I just don't feel the same way.
 
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