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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
HP Tuners - Pentastar + 8 Speed

Anyone experienced with tuning Pentastar, SCs, and the 8 speed for my 2015 Challenger?

Could use a mentor to help accelerate my learning curve of tuning my Challenger.

First question is what do about all this spark retard: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet


EDIT:

Down below is my current progress, overall steps I'll be taking, and useful links I found throughout my tuning journey.
If you have any experience or notice anything wrong feel free to correct me so I can learn :)


Useful Links:
Tuning ANN
Dodge Tuning Tips and Tricks
Using HP Tuners
PCM Tuning with HP Tuners


Current Progress:

1. Injector Tuning - In Progress
Why? Injectors were not dialed in. They were working great for cruising. Getting 14.7 AFR. Though the car's stoich is 14.5. Under WOT, the tune is dialed in for 11.X AFR. My wideband is reporting low 10s.

Current Status: Cruising is dialed in almost perfectly. WOT is now in the 11.Xs. This is solely from the Pulse width x Fuel Mass tables.

Up Next: fixing the offset values (if possible) and finding the proper min pulse width while still improving the Pulse Width x Fuel Mass Tables through iterative logging.

Good link to learn more about injectors and how their work on a linear ( or near linear ) flow: Injectors Injectors2

2. Fixing Knock
Why? Going uphill under light to moderate throttle leads knock being reported which then pulls timing. Knock is bad. I want this tuned out.

3. Adjusted WOT Fuels Trims
Why? I want to dial in the perfect AFR for WOT to get the most out of my setup.
Current numbers from the canned SC tune: 5.3s 0-60 MPG, 13.8s 1/4 mile

4. Spark Advance
Why? More power. See where the exact safe limit is and how far I can safely push the car.

5. TCM (8 Speed) Tuning
I peeked at the tables in HP Tuners... wtf!? Need to find an engine rpm to output shaft rpm calculator
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I'm Sorry to be of little to no help, but this might be a good place to start:

https://www.hptuners.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?27-Dodge-Tuning-Engine-Gas&

My suggestion is to go back as far as you can and search for V6 Pentastar tuning to try and get as information as possible.
Definitely a good place to start. I've been reading material on there for the past week in my evenings.

I'll probably turn this thread into a repo of useful links on tuning the '15+ Challenger SXTs and a journal of my progress.


EDIT:

From Chris's Posting @ HP Tuners

Pressure Ratio is MAP/BARO. eg. MAP is 70kpa, Baro is 100kpa, PRatio = 0.7. It works for boosted engines as well. eg. MAP = 130 kPa, Baro = 100 kPa, PRatio = 1.3

Fuel is Fuel-to-Air ratio, ie. the inverse of AFR. eg. Stoich = 0.0694 FAR = 14.4 AFR

Most of the fuelling tables are adders to Stoich. eg. PE table = 0.0177, the final commanded FAR = 0.0694 + 0.0177 = 0.0871 FAR = 11.48 AFR

Saprk is pretty easy, one table for part throttle and another for WOT (PE). The ECT and IAT spark correction is a little funky but not to hard to understand.

The big thing with the torque management is that everything uses torque management, the idle spark being the most annoying. eg. if you simply zero the torque management spark retard table, the idle suffers as the idle over/under speed uses a torque request. Hence, you'll notice all the idle torque tables in there for both throttle and spark. Absolutely necessary for tuning camshafts.
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Anyone experienced with tuning Pentastar, SCs, and the 8 speed for my 2015 Challenger?

Could use a mentor to help accelerate my learning curve of tuning my Challenger.

First question is what do about all this spark retard: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
Full Disclosure: I do not have a HP Tuner, and I have never cracked open any of my tunes to make actual changes to the primary VE-affecting parameters contained within.

However, I'm not a complete n00b on this subject. I do have experience with 2 different Challengers (2011 w/3.6L and 2010 w/3.5L) and a couple of the DiabloSport tuners. I have amassed quite a bit of datalog generation/interpretation experience, which is certainly worth something. Further, I have kinda-sorta customized the canned tunes that come with those tuners by modifying their WOT Fuel/Spark parameters to meet my vehicles' specific needs, given its operating environment, the cars' installed mods, etc.,.

Add all that up, and what do you get? Me with an educated response, of sorts, to your initial post. So obviously take this with a grain of salt! ;)

I hate to answer a question with a question, but why do you want to do anything with the Spark Retard in the first place?

Do you have reason to believe it is incorrect or otherwise needs adjustment?

Unless the tune you are running was not specifically meant to be run with your s/c'd 3.6L, shouldn't it be given the benefit of the doubt as far as its parameter settings?

Now if you are just wanting to experiment to see if you can squeeze more power out of it, that's certainly understandable, but I'm not sure adjusting the Spark parameters without good reason to do so is a good idea. I would start with the Fuel parameters if you just wanted to experiment. They have much less ability to do serious harm to engine components if adjusted slightly in the wrong direction.

But before even making a single adjustment, I would personally want to have a crap-load of data to back up my decision, in the form of datalogs from engine operation in the RPM range for which I am making the adjustments. Only after I saw some pattern or trend in that data would I consider making a parameter change to try to affect it.

Is this approach similar to what you're doing, or are you coming at it from a completely different direction?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Full Disclosure: I do not have a HP Tuner, and I have never cracked open any of my tunes to make actual changes to the primary VE-affecting parameters contained within.

However, I'm not a complete n00b on this subject. I do have experience with 2 different Challengers (2011 w/3.6L and 2010 w/3.5L) and a couple of the DiabloSport tuners. I have amassed quite a bit of datalog generation/interpretation experience, which is certainly worth something. Further, I have kinda-sorta customized the canned tunes that come with those tuners by modifying their WOT Fuel/Spark parameters to meet my vehicles' specific needs, given its operating environment, the cars' installed mods, etc.,.

Add all that up, and what do you get? Me with an educated response, of sorts, to your initial post. So obviously take this with a grain of salt! ;)

I hate to answer a question with a question, but why do you want to do anything with the Spark Retard in the first place?

Do you have reason to believe it is incorrect or otherwise needs adjustment?

Unless the tune you are running was not specifically meant to be run with your s/c'd 3.6L, shouldn't it be given the benefit of the doubt as far as its parameter settings?

Now if you are just wanting to experiment to see if you can squeeze more power out of it, that's certainly understandable, but I'm not sure adjusting the Spark parameters without good reason to do so is a good idea. I would start with the Fuel parameters if you just wanted to experiment. They have much less ability to do serious harm to engine components if adjusted slightly in the wrong direction.

But before even making a single adjustment, I would personally want to have a crap-load of data to back up my decision, in the form of datalogs from engine operation in the RPM range for which I am making the adjustments. Only after I saw some pattern or trend in that data would I consider making a parameter change to try to affect it.

Is this approach similar to what you're doing, or are you coming at it from a completely different direction?

I want to discover why the Spark Retard is taking place in that certain RPM range and load on the car.
Overall the tune isn't making the power it was described or marketed to make. So I believe it can be tuned better - they state this in their manual and online site as well - it's a generic tune to get it road worthy.
For example. My wideband reports an AFR of 10.3ish on WOT runs.

Thanks for the advice and the questions. Asking me questions helps me re-evaluate why I'm doing this.

I'll start with the fuel adjustments as I see those aren't Zeroed in yet in daily cruising. Here's the link on how to do that: -Dodge-tuning-w-ANN-InjPW-v-Fuel-Mass-spark-advance
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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I want to discover why the Spark Retard is taking place in that certain RPM range and load on the car.
Overall the tune isn't making the power it was described or marketed to make. So I believe it can be tuned better - they state this in their manual and online site as well - it's a generic tune to get it road worthy.
For example. My wideband reports an AFR of 10.3ish on WOT runs.

Thanks for the advice and the questions. Asking me questions helps me re-evaluate why I'm doing this.

I'll start with the fuel adjustments as I see those aren't Zeroed in yet in daily cruising. Here's the link on how to do that: -Dodge-tuning-w-ANN-InjPW-v-Fuel-Mass-spark-advance
I'm both envious of the work you have ahead and glad I don't have to go through it.

I'm envious because I love learning about this sort of thing, and couple that with the fact that it directly acts how your car runs, and it's the best of both worlds.

Yet I'm certainly glad I don't have to go through it because it directly affects how the car runs and is hamstrung by depending upon the Speed Density (MAP) system rather than the MAF system of providing fuel for the ingested air.

I could spend 40 hrs a week learning how to do the former to the best of my abilities, and I wouldn't bat an eye. But combine that with the latter, and it scares me to death.

I've recently been doing a crap-ton of experimenting on my own car in an attempt to learn more about the intricacies of how Dodge's implementation of the Speed Density system operates, and I gotta say, I'm not impressed. Granted, you are starting off in a better position than what I'm currently mired in (the 2011+ IAT redesign/relocation was a good thing!), but the underlying weaknesses still exist - namely that you must trust the inputs provided by your sensors (IAT chief among them), yet it's rarely going to be correct.

I'm guessing that a good tuner can learn to anticipate their setup's behavior and adjust the tune accordingly to compensate for the MAP system's shortcomings, but getting to the point to where you are a "good tuner" can take some time I'm sure, for all the obvious reasons.

If I had any advice that I thought would be useful, it would be to keep it simple. Identify the issues you're trying to address and take them one at a time. Doing otherwise could quickly convolute things beyond hope of resolving.

For example, if you're seeing too much spark pull, pinpoint the most likely causes why and only go after those causes with your changes. KR will be the likely culprit, and what's the cause of KR, well there's the 10K question.

Most folks will think something's up with their timing or octane. With the MAP setup, I would counter with the more likely cause being incorrect fuel/air mixture. But that's getting into the weeds, so I'll leave it alone.

Good luck with your adventure, and don't forget to keep this thread updated with your lessons learned!

Nuke
 

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Definitely a good place to start. I've been reading material on there for the past week in my evenings.

I'll probably turn this thread into a repo of useful links on tuning the '15+ Challenger SXTs and a journal of my progress.
That's a good idea to read as much as you can there. It's a good place to start.

Making a repository of Pentastar tuning would be really Nice of you. I don't have one, but it is interesting to learn more though and if I come up with any useful info, I'll post it up here too. :cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Thanks guys for the advice, words of encouragement, and help :)

First, I'm tackling the fuel variables.

So comparing injector calibrations for the injectors I have (Bosch 60lb 0280158298 (They run at 69lb on a 4 bar fuel system)). The S/C tune seems to be off by a large %. Not only is the injector PW v Fuel Mass seem off of what it should be, but the offsets (injector latency or dead time) were left as stock.

I've gathered a lot of data, now I'm busy compiling, adjusting for PSI (which finding the stock Pentastar fuel pressure is no simple Google search, but it seems all late model Dodge cars are using a returnless 4 bar fuel system aka 58 PSI), and analyzing the results.

Once I've double checked my numbers and made sure I've done it correctly. I will proceed with testing the injector configuration only.

Then, (after successful test, I'm a right ;) ) I'll post my results and move onto the next item. Logging and fine tuning Injector PW.

I'd love to be wrong...but I'm also smarter than your average bear.
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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It's true because it's on the internet!

Thanks guys for the advice, words of encouragement, and help :)

First, I'm tackling the fuel variables.

So comparing injector calibrations for the injectors I have (Bosch 60lb 0280158298). The S/C tune seems to be off by a large %. Not only is the injector PW v Fuel Mass seem off of what it should be, but the offsets (injector latency or dead time) were left as stock.

I've gathered a lot of data, now I'm busy compiling, adjusting for PSI (which finding the stock Pentastar fuel pressure is no simple Google search, but it seems all late model Dodge cars are using a returnless 4 bar fuel system aka 58 PSI), and analyzing the results.

Once I've double checked my numbers and made sure I've done it correctly. I will proceed with testing the injector configuration only.

Then, (after successful test, I'm a right ;) ) I'll post my results and move onto the next item. Logging and fine tuning Injector PW.

I'd love to be wrong...but I'm also smarter than your average bear.
Have you considered just adding some Marvel Mystery Oil to every tank of gas to speed things up?

Scoff if you want, but my wife has a cousin back in Ohio who has an inbred uncle/brother who uses that stuff religiously and he swears by it!

Something about how it gave him 4 wheel drive on a 2 wheel drive car, I don't know, it's hard to decipher his crayon scribbling sometimes... :freak5:
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Have you considered just adding some Marvel Mystery Oil to every tank of gas to speed things up?

Scoff if you want, but my wife has a cousin back in Ohio who has an inbred uncle/brother who uses that stuff religiously and he swears by it!

Something about how it gave him 4 wheel drive on a 2 wheel drive car, I don't know, it's hard to decipher his crayon scribbling sometimes... :freak5:
Actually, I think that may be just what I need!! I'll need to give this cousin a call :drink4:


Here's a sample chart. Red is from data points acquired by a tuner who claims to specifically dial these injectors in. Blue is the tune I received. Once I interpolated the values, it was closer than originally thought. But still off by a small %.

Trying to find the proper offset values...Such a pain
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Quick Update from yesterday:

After 6+ hours of scouring the nets for injector data, I felt I had enough to start testing my compiled results.

Scary stuff when you take numbers off the web and plug it into your car. :p

1st Attempt: I edited too many variables related to the injectors. PW x Fuel mass (and inverse table), Min PW, and Offsets. The car started but had to "find" that idle. Was a little lean too with a 15-16 AFR. I let the car warm up and turned it off. No way I'm taking it out of park like that.

Alright. Let's dial it back and try again.

Reset the offsets back to default. And lowered the Min PW closer to stock. (Some say to do not touch the offsets, others say it's not proper injector tuning)
Finding the offsets for these injectors is an ongoing nightmare. Will try emailing bosch, but from other threads....others got denied as it's a "Ford" design and it's their data.

2nd Attempt: Much better. Fuel logging was pulling fuel instead of adding. Running a little rich. I adjusted the PW x Mass tables from the logging.

3rd Attempt: Getting better! The car is actually hitting it's stoich value of 14.5 ( 1 / 0.0688 ) and holding it. Before it was at a perfect 14.7, but that's not it's set stoich value.

Cruise around to the gym while logging. It's pulling fuel here and there, nothing too big though. No worries I'll adjust via this method: Tuning Fuel w/ ANN

Let's give it a WOT run. or 3x. Each time I was in the 11.X AFR! Which is where the car is currently tuned to be. Before I was reading 10.2ish at WOT.

So my injector tuning, so far, seems to be a success. I have more iterations to go through today to perfect the tune of the injectors.
 

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It Definitely sounds like this isn't your first time tuning. Congrats on heading in the right direction. :cheers:

If the injectors are "Ford" designs, have you tried some of the Mustang forums for info? There is some really good info to be found on some of those forums.

Did you get your throttle to come in before 4900 yet?
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
It Definitely sounds like this isn't your first time tuning. Congrats on heading in the right direction. :cheers:

If the injectors are "Ford" designs, have you tried some of the Mustang forums for info? There is some really good info to be found on some of those forums.

Did you get your throttle to come in before 4900 yet?
Thank you! I get extremely focused when I zero in on a project I love to do and even more so when I can't resolve my issues quickly. 15+ hours studying tuning the last 3 days. I've learned a lot. This guy on the HP Tuner Forums, Hemituna keeps teasing me with his posts about how he's tuned the Pentastar with a blower on it really well. And how well these engines response to proper cam tunings with and without blowers. He does have a JK Blower tune published on the HP Repo. I'm referencing that to help teach myself.

By the time I'm done with this. I might start advertising my services in my local area. So many Challengers nowadays here in Austin. Partially kidding. I'm too busy as it is with my career, my dog, a startup i'm trying to get going, and my car.

I tried searching on the various part #s: Bosch 60lb 0280158298 (Ford: DR3Z9F593A or Motorcraft: CM-5216)
They each turn up different, same, or similar results.

I believe I found the near proper (for my specific injectors and car - that marginal % error and all) data.
Once I get it refined with +-3 to 5% I'll publish my injector data for future reference.

Below is the timing events of my car's WOT from a log I'm referencing from yesterday:
Short answer: I don't get full 100% WOT till 4900 RPM on the dot. I do get the following:

68.74% @ 2500 RPM
90.89% @ 4000 RPM
100.00% @ 4900 RPM
 

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Thank you! I get extremely focused when I zero in on a project I love to do and even more so when I can't resolve my issues quickly. 15+ hours studying tuning the last 3 days. I've learned a lot. This guy on the HP Tuner Forums, Hemituna keeps teasing me with his posts about how he's tuned the Pentastar with a blower on it really well. And how well these engines response to proper cam tunings with and without blowers. He does have a JK Blower tune published on the HP Repo. I'm referencing that to help teach myself.

By the time I'm done with this. I might start advertising my services in my local area. So many Challengers nowadays here in Austin. Partially kidding. I'm too busy as it is with my career, my dog, a startup i'm trying to get going, and my car.

I tried searching on the various part #s: Bosch 60lb 0280158298 (Ford: DR3Z9F593A or Motorcraft: CM-5216)
They each turn up different, same, or similar results.

I believe I found the near proper (for my specific injectors and car - that marginal % error and all) data.
Once I get it refined with +-3 to 5% I'll publish my injector data for future reference.

Below is the timing events of my car's WOT from a log I'm referencing from yesterday:
Short answer: I don't get full 100% WOT till 4900 RPM on the dot. I do get the following:

68.74% @ 2500 RPM
90.89% @ 4000 RPM
100.00% @ 4900 RPM
I'm new to tuning Mopar products and by no means know everything, so maybe you could explain this to me, if possible, but if you're at full throttle at 4900 rpm, then why on your listed chart does it show your throttle position sensor at 86.7%?

I'm just curious and want to learn because I don't understand it.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'm new to tuning Mopar products and by no means know everything, so maybe you could explain this to me, if possible, but if you're at full throttle at 4900 rpm, then why on your listed chart does it show your throttle position sensor at 86.7%?

I'm just curious and want to learn because I don't understand it.
I don't have the real answer yet from Chrysler, I just know for our Pentastar engines...that's how the PCM/ECU reports WOT as.
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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I'm new to tuning Mopar products and by no means know everything, so maybe you could explain this to me, if possible, but if you're at full throttle at 4900 rpm, then why on your listed chart does it show your throttle position sensor at 86.7%?

I'm just curious and want to learn because I don't understand it.
It could be that the TPS PID reports the actual position of the throttle blade when open/closed (as opposed to how much throttle your foot pressing on gas pedal has commanded it open/close), and no matter how much force is applied to the throttle body's blade (via a jolt of electricity commanded by the PCM), it can only open/close so fast.

Kinda like jumping out of a plane and reaching terminal velocity as you plummet to your death. Once you're at TV, it doesn't matter how much longer you fall, you can't go any faster.

I've pulled my TB off many times and manually actuated it to clean it and sometimes just to relieve stress, and I can vouch for the fact that you cannot just slap that thing wide open in an instant. You can apply enough force to open it 100%, but it will take a few milliseconds to fully get there.

Dunno, that's my best guess...
 

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It could be that the TPS PID reports the actual position of the throttle blade when open/closed (as opposed to how much throttle your foot pressing on gas pedal has commanded it open/close), and no matter how much force is applied to the throttle body's blade (via a jolt of electricity commanded by the PCM), it can only open/close so fast.

Kinda like jumping out of a plane and reaching terminal velocity as you plummet to your death. Once you're at TV, it doesn't matter how much longer you fall, you can't go any faster.

I've pulled my TB off many times and manually actuated it to clean it and sometimes just to relieve stress, and I can vouch for the fact that you cannot just slap that thing wide open in an instant. You can apply enough force to open it 100%, but it will take a few milliseconds to fully get there.

Dunno, that's my best guess...
Thanks Nuke! :cheers:

My tuning experience has been only GM stuff, but when I logged my .pids and the throttle went to WOT, it always logged as 100%.

I didn't know if Mopar did things different or not.
 

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The Bacon Hauler (‘12 Cop Charger)
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Thanks Nuke! :cheers:

My tuning experience has been only GM stuff, but when I logged my .pids and the throttle went to WOT, it always logged as 100%.

I didn't know if Mopar did things different or not.
Well there is another PID available which (as far as I can tell) outputs values more in line with what you're talking about I think. I actually like to use it in my datalog interpretations over the TPS because it displays an instantaneous 100% when I mash my gas pedal to the floor (actually, in my case, it displays 127% at WOT, but that's because of the DiabloSport's Throttle Boost settings). But now that I think about it, using the TPS PID values is probably more advisable if I plan on making any WOT Fuel/Spark adjustments for the very reasons I highlighted in my last post.

Huh, go figure...in the space of an hour here, I've just managed to seemingly invalidate years of conclusions I've come to rely upon while futzing with my own car's tune...and I have only my own shortsightedness to blame...damn, I hate it when I do that!!

Now I REALLY can't wait to get my car back so I can start all that logging, WOT driving, adjusting, logging, WOT driving, adjusting, etc. all over again!!

There, now I feel better :grin2:
 

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Well there is another PID available which (as far as I can tell) outputs values more in line with what you're talking about I think. I actually like to use it in my datalog interpretations over the TPS because it displays an instantaneous 100% when I mash my gas pedal to the floor (actually, in my case, it displays 127% at WOT, but that's because of the DiabloSport's Throttle Boost settings). But now that I think about it, using the TPS PID values is probably more advisable if I plan on making any WOT Fuel/Spark adjustments for the very reasons I highlighted in my last post.

Huh, go figure...in the space of an hour here, I've just managed to seemingly invalidate years of conclusions I've come to rely upon while futzing with my own car's tune...and I have only my own shortsightedness to blame...damn, I hate it when I do that!!

Now I REALLY can't wait to get my car back so I can start all that logging, WOT driving, adjusting, logging, WOT driving, adjusting, etc. all over again!!

There, now I feel better :grin2:
Thanks for the info and glad that you could vent a bit! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I'm almost within +-5% of my Pulse Width Tables. Couple more logging sessions with various driving conditions should get me there.

Researching knock now. Which has also lead me into cam theory.

I have my VCM Scanner setup to log tables of LSA and Overlap of my cams vs RPM Range vs Aircharge.

Supercharged and Nitrous setups hate overlap. You're literally losing boost out of exhaust valve during that overlap session.

And guess what? My S/C tune has TONS of overlap...Perhaps why I'm only reading high 6s PSI instead of closer to 8. I'm losing air out of my exhaust. This can also lead to false lean conditions perhaps if my thinking is correct?

See attached.
 

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