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Discussion Starter #1
Are my OEM ENVY Wheels (20x8 ET24) on my 2013 R/T Classic Hub centric mount or lug centric mount. You know, I've rotated these wheels twice a year for 5 years, and just did it a couple weeks ago, but I cannot recall if they center over the hub or not.

The reason I'm asking is the aftermarket wheels I'm looking at come with a slightly larger hub bore (74.1mm vs. my stock wheel is 71.5mm). I realize that if necessary, the new wheels will come with a hub ring to make up the difference, however, the lugs patterns is also 5x114.3 while my OEM wheels are 5x115. I'm hip to the insignificance in the bolt pattern (alone) but am I asking for trouble by having both the center bore and bolt pattern being slightly off? If hub centric, the ring should center it and the bolt pattern issue becomes a non-issue. But if it's centered by the lugs, will the different bolt pattern make my wheels not necessarily centered?
 

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All OEM wheels been hub-centric a long time for safety, maybe gotta go back to left handed lug nuts to find a lug-centric wheel.


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Discussion Starter #6
All OEM wheels been hub-centric a long time for safety, maybe gotta go back to left handed lug nuts to find a lug-centric wheel.


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Thanks, man. It's something I assumed, but also something I just haven't given much thought to.
 

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You can run that 114.3 bolt pattern without issue.I run that pattern and a lot of people I know also run it with drag radials.The difference equates to the thickness of six sheets of paper so it is a sheet of paper thickness at each stud/lugnut off.
 

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Are my OEM ENVY Wheels (20x8 ET24) on my 2013 R/T Classic Hub centric mount or lug centric mount. You know, I've rotated these wheels twice a year for 5 years, and just did it a couple weeks ago, but I cannot recall if they center over the hub or not.

The reason I'm asking is the aftermarket wheels I'm looking at come with a slightly larger hub bore (74.1mm vs. my stock wheel is 71.5mm). I realize that if necessary, the new wheels will come with a hub ring to make up the difference, however, the lugs patterns is also 5x114.3 while my OEM wheels are 5x115. I'm hip to the insignificance in the bolt pattern (alone) but am I asking for trouble by having both the center bore and bolt pattern being slightly off? If hub centric, the ring should center it and the bolt pattern issue becomes a non-issue. But if it's centered by the lugs, will the different bolt pattern make my wheels not necessarily centered?
Keep in mind that 5x114.3mm, which is also 5x4.5", is not the same as 5x115. You would need a hub centric wheel adapter and you would have to find someone like US Wheel Adapters to custom build them. I suggest looking for wheels with a 5x115 bolt pattern.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
.7 / 25.4 = .02755 inch. More than I'd like personally.
That .7 is the overall difference. We are talking about the diameter of a circle drawn through the center of the bolt holes that is .7 mm different. If you buy pencil lead for a mechanical pencil a common lead size is .7mm. The radius of the circle, or the amount the distance that each stud is off is .35mm. The smallest pencil lead I have seen is .5mm so your talking less than the thickness of the smallest pencil lead available. Or since I'm old school and think in inches here is another comparison. 1/64 of an inch = 0.0156" = 0.3969 mm. We are talking less than 1/64th of an inch, I seriously doubt that tolerances of mass produced wheels are that tight.

People have been running 114.3 wheels on 115 bolt patterns for years, and lugs haven't snapped and wheels haven't flown off. If they had, aftermarket wheel makers would not guarantee fit for 114.3 wheels on cars with 115 lugs or the lawyers would have sued them out of business.
 

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That .7 is the overall difference. We are talking about the diameter of a circle drawn through the center of the bolt holes that is .7 mm different. If you buy pencil lead for a mechanical pencil a common lead size is .7mm. The radius of the circle, or the amount the distance that each stud is off is .35mm. The smallest pencil lead I have seen is .5mm so your talking less than the thickness of the smallest pencil lead available. Or since I'm old school and think in inches here is another comparison. 1/64 of an inch = 0.0156" = 0.3969 mm. We are talking less than 1/64th of an inch, I seriously doubt that tolerances of mass produced wheels are that tight.

People have been running 114.3 wheels on 115 bolt patterns for years, and lugs haven't snapped and wheels haven't flown off. If they had, aftermarket wheel makers would not guarantee fit for 114.3 wheels on cars with 115 lugs or the lawyers would have sued them out of business.
OK, but the lug is a tapered seat. That means it no longer does. The lug will hit off center on the countersink. No thank you. They make plenty of rims that properly fit our cars. I just bought a set of 20x9.5 Hellcat replicas from FactoryReproductions...$725.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
OK, but the lug is a tapered seat. That means it no longer does. The lug will hit off center on the countersink. No thank you. They make plenty of rims that properly fit our cars. I just bought a set of 20x9.5 Hellcat replicas from FactoryReproductions...$725.
The tapered lug seat still work perfectly. Even if the wheels are 100% perfect and the lugs are .35mm off center, the tapered nut in the wheel seat will pull the lug that .35mm in to align with the center of the 114.3 wheel holes. Once you torque them all down and removed them and measure your lugs, they will now be at 114.3 instead of the original 115. That's right, you can bend your factory lugnuts by .35mm without them snapping off. Now, I'll bet you an entire box of donuts that the force required to bend those lugs .35mm to align with the wheel holes will not stress them in a manner that compromises their integrity. You really need to look at what .35mm looks like. It's almost nothing. The thickness of a few sheets of paper.
 

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The tapered lug seat still work perfectly. Even if the wheels are 100% perfect and the lugs are .35mm off center, the tapered nut in the wheel seat will pull the lug that .35mm in to align with the center of the 114.3 wheel holes. Once you torque them all down and removed them and measure your lugs, they will now be at 114.3 instead of the original 115. That's right, you can bend your factory lugnuts by .35mm without them snapping off. Now, I'll bet you an entire box of donuts that the force required to bend those lugs .35mm to align with the wheel holes will not stress them in a manner that compromises their integrity. You really need to look at what .35mm looks like. It's almost nothing. The thickness of a few sheets of paper.
You actually think the lug is going to bend the 1/2 stud into alignment? And if that was even possible, you think that's OK? How long have you been a mechanical engineer?
 

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Here's my take. Will the 114.3 fit, in general yes. Will you have any problems, the majority of people who do it have no problems. Is it the correct size, obviously not.

If you have tapered lugs, as we do, if it "bends the stud", then the taper will be applying an uneven force, and any torque reading will only be ballpark. More force will be applied to one area of the wheel.

Clipboard01.jpg

http://www.metalconsult.com/pdf/wheel_stud_bolt_failures.pdf

Improperly seated...over torqued...

This whole such a small difference, bending lug nuts, I'm able to get correct torque rating will come down to...

Are you willing to take an unnecessary risk? People do unsafe things every day for years without consequence. Does it mean it's actually safe?

Would I do it? No

A Guy
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You actually think the lug is going to bend the 1/2 stud into alignment? And if that was even possible, you think that's OK? How long have you been a mechanical engineer?
Yes you can bend your 115 lugs .35mm to align in the 114.3 holes. And by doing it gradually and evenly around the star-pattern (which is how you should torque your lugnuts anyway) you still achieve proper/even seating of the tapered lugs. This isn't the space-shuttle. You could run your car all day every day with three lugnuts per wheel and never notice the difference.

Next time you have a wheel off, take a precision measurement of your lug spacing and I'll bet you a whole box of donuts that your current lug spacing varies more than the .35mm. Which means even when you have 115 wheels on 115 lugs, your're deflecting the lugs to align with the 115mm hole spacing in you wheels, which, if you measure them, they'll also vary by more than .35mm.

This entire argument is about a variance that;s smaller than the spacing tolerance of the wheel hole and lug bolt pattern spacing. It's what we call in the engineering world, "negligible".

And in case it matters, I've been an engineer for over 30 years. (not the kind that drives the train).
 

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Oh man, a train driver...now that would be cool :)

A Guy
 

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Yes you can bend your 115 lugs .35mm to align in the 114.3 holes. And by doing it gradually and evenly around the star-pattern (which is how you should torque your lugnuts anyway) you still achieve proper/even seating of the tapered lugs. This isn't the space-shuttle. You could run your car all day every day with three lugnuts per wheel and never notice the difference.

Next time you have a wheel off, take a precision measurement of your lug spacing and I'll bet you a whole box of donuts that your current lug spacing varies more than the .35mm. Which means even when you have 115 wheels on 115 lugs, your're deflecting the lugs to align with the 115mm hole spacing in you wheels, which, if you measure them, they'll also vary by more than .35mm.

This entire argument is about a variance that;s smaller than the spacing tolerance of the wheel hole and lug bolt pattern spacing. It's what we call in the engineering world, "negligible".

And in case it matters, I've been an engineer for over 30 years. (not the kind that drives the train).
Do you understand what you are talking about? You think that you will be able to bend a 1/2 stud in 1/2 in, which is all the length available for said bend. It never happens. What does happen is the lug tries to dig into the aluminum on the interfering side...then over time the aluminum cold flows as the lug forces it out of the way. Then you retorque the loose lugs and it repeats. You can't bend a 1/2 in stud in 1/2. That is not bending force that is shear. I've been a software, mechanical and electrical engineer for 40 years. I guess they taught us differently back then. You know, when things lasted.
 

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Obviously the cold flow will never actually happen, as the lug is never in place long enough for that. Like previously mentioned, you are torquing against only a portion of the lug/wheel surface. Go ahead if that's your choice. I would NEVER do it. I'd just buy the correct rims in the first place.

Of course you could get a file and "fix it" that way. ROFLMAO.
 

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Yes you can bend your 115 lugs .35mm to align in the 114.3 holes. And by doing it gradually and evenly around the star-pattern (which is how you should torque your lugnuts anyway) you still achieve proper/even seating of the tapered lugs. This isn't the space-shuttle. You could run your car all day every day with three lugnuts per wheel and never notice the difference.

Next time you have a wheel off, take a precision measurement of your lug spacing and I'll bet you a whole box of donuts that your current lug spacing varies more than the .35mm. Which means even when you have 115 wheels on 115 lugs, your're deflecting the lugs to align with the 115mm hole spacing in you wheels, which, if you measure them, they'll also vary by more than .35mm.

This entire argument is about a variance that;s smaller than the spacing tolerance of the wheel hole and lug bolt pattern spacing. It's what we call in the engineering world, "negligible".

And in case it matters, I've been an engineer for over 30 years. (not the kind that drives the train).
Been there and done that , you my friend are 100% correct. The studs themselves vary in diameter up .5mm from 13.7-14.2mm , the gage across the studs also varies up to and sometimes greater than .5mm. I don’t guess, I measure , kudos to you for not listening to all the ass hats:)
Do you understand what you are talking about? You think that you will be able to bend a 1/2 stud in 1/2 in, which is all the length available for said bend. It never happens. What does happen is the lug tries to dig into the aluminum on the interfering side...then over time the aluminum cold flows as the lug forces it out of the way. Then you retorque the loose lugs and it repeats. You can't bend a 1/2 in stud in 1/2. That is not bending force that is shear. I've been a software, mechanical and electrical engineer for 40 years. I guess they taught us differently back then. You know, when things lasted.

You couldn’t be more wrong .......try going outside and taking a couple of measurements, there is a thing in this world called tolerance........



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Do you understand what you are talking about? You think that you will be able to bend a 1/2 stud in 1/2 in, which is all the length available for said bend. It never happens. What does happen is the lug tries to dig into the aluminum on the interfering side...then over time the aluminum cold flows as the lug forces it out of the way. Then you retorque the loose lugs and it repeats. You can't bend a 1/2 in stud in 1/2. That is not bending force that is shear. I've been a software, mechanical and electrical engineer for 40 years. I guess they taught us differently back then. You know, when things lasted.
Despite all your years as an engineer, you still missed the fact that we are in mm and not inches (we just crashed into Mars again). You are only deflecting the stud a 1/2 mm (if everything is perfectly aligned from the factory. Hint: it's not). When you factor that across two studs that aren't directly across from each other it will be less than a 1/4 mm of deflection each which is well within the tolerances of anything that has come out of Chrysler.
 
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