[Cuda340]

Did you know that when you lose traction on one tire, your car will apply brakes to the spinning tire, hoping to even things out?

If that doesn't help, the ESP will pull power, actually downshifting and chopping the electronic throttle.

Has anyone experiened this?

 

[Hell Ride]

YES!!! It did it at the worst possible time and almost killed me. Several months later, I sold it and bought a stick. It may still pull power but at least it's not engine braking. This has to be the most poorly designed TCS in the world. I hate it. It is actually dangerous. Now I drive everywhere with it disabled. Never again.

 

[randycat99]

Cuda340, you've been driving a 2009 automatic...I know you didn't "just" figure this out!

I only notice this behavior when the traction control is left in default-on mode, and making an exit-turn from a driveway to the main road where the 2 surfaces are at an angle (so there is about zero chance the suspension can position the inside tire to mate up with the road surface nicely as it transitions from a surface at one angle to a surface at another angle). The thing is, I've never noticed the braking inner wheel so much as the engine cut. You can absolutely tell the engine is not responding to the throttle signal you are sending with the pedal. The inside rear wheel will may also spin/chirp, and you can feel that leeching output from the outer wheel from propelling the car forward like it should...hence, I don't even think the braking effect on the inner wheel is even all that strong to be effective, in the first place.

That's why when the pavement is dry, I roll with the TC in semi-off mode. At least you don't get the engine cut effect. If you're being "endangered" in any way, it is the engine cut that is the real culprit, imo.

 

[deranged]

This will also take place when cornering extremely hard. If HAL senses a wheel has or is near the point of leaving the ground he will brake and purdy much shut down any throttle input. HAL keeps track of car angle, g's and vehicle yaw. When he determines you are in over your head you are shut down, even though you know exactly what you are attempting to do. This is with TC enabled. Pushing the TC off button gives you more leniency for wheel spin and yaw but HAL will not let you kill yourself. The key trick on the pre 2011 cars is as close as i've gotten to shutting down HAL but he is still in there with abs. This on a factory HAL unit and no tuner to shut him down.

 

[FWB]

I've experienced this alot and it's annoying I must say.

 

[kidwolf908]

I've experienced this alot and it's annoying I must say.

But this seems to only be an issue on automatic Challengers?

 

[randycat99]

I would say the flipside to HAL in semi-off mode is that he actually won't intervene, even with the car getting well out-of-whack, as long as you have your steering correction already dialed-in at that very moment. If you can beat him to the punch, then he is hands-off. If he beats you to the punch, then he beats you to the punch. I look upon it as not so much as intervention, rather HAL giving you a friendly wake-up call to tighten up your corrections, next time...you're doing the right thing, just not soon enough in HAL's estimation.

 

[Thunderinn]

Cuda340, you've been driving a 2009 automatic...I know you didn't "just" figure this out!

I only notice this behavior when the traction control is left in default-on mode, and making an exit-turn from a driveway to the main road where the 2 surfaces are at an angle (so there is about zero chance the suspension can position the inside tire to mate up with the road surface nicely as it transitions from a surface at one angle to a surface at another angle). The thing is, I've never noticed the braking inner wheel so much as the engine cut. You can absolutely tell the engine is not responding to the throttle signal you are sending with the pedal. The inside rear wheel will may also spin/chirp, and you can feel that leeching output from the outer wheel from propelling the car forward like it should...hence, I don't even think the braking effect on the inner wheel is even all that strong to be effective, in the first place.

That's why when the pavement is dry, I roll with the TC in semi-off mode. At least you don't get the engine cut effect. If you're being "endangered" in any way, it is the engine cut that is the real culprit, imo.

Thank you Randycat for your excellent description and theory/summary about the TC occasionally engaging and pulling throttle! I have a 2012 Challenger SRT and this has happened to me once in a while on the same corner, same right turn, same speed. Never a left hand turn (much wider arc so naturally it is not tight and "binding"). I could never figure it out why at the end of my block I make my right turn and the TC lite comes on and no matter what I do with the throttle I just limp around that corner! Never occurred to me that it could be the rear wheel/tires on an uneven and not level surface. Never has happened anywhere but that same damn corner turning right only! LOL...

 

[3boystoys]

What else can TC do but try to slow the wheel (or power to it) to get traction back?

 

[randycat99]

It's informally referred to as "TC", but what is actually at work is stability-control. Going in a straight line, the system is really not so touchy over if the drive wheels slip a bit (either in unison or independently). It's when you are in a turn or steering for a turn, is when it will enforce thresholds...hence, stability control effect. Most pertinently, your steering angle and the car's yaw better add up, or it will intervene to guarantee that the yaw remains commensurate with your steering angle. To do this, the handling model dictates that all tires need to be kept in rolling traction as a baseline condition. If not, then braking and engine cut is utilized to eliminate any deviations...so that essentially is traction control baked into the process. Then it will further apply independent brake control to each wheel as needed to adjust for "safe" yaw.

 

[deranged]

It's informally referred to as "TC", but what is actually at work is stability-control. Going in a straight line, the system is really not so touchy over if the drive wheels slip a bit (either in unison or independently). It's when you are in a turn or steering for a turn, is when it will enforce thresholds...hence, stability control effect. Most pertinently, your steering angle and the car's yaw better add up, or it will intervene to guarantee that the yaw remains commensurate with your steering angle. To do this, the handling model dictates that all tires need to be kept in rolling traction as a baseline condition. If not, then braking and engine cut is utilized to eliminate any deviations...so that essentially is traction control baked into the process. Then it will further apply independent brake control to each wheel as needed to adjust for "safe" yaw.

Exactly! HAL will brake and drop throttle for you if he deems you are incompetent at car control. That means up to a certain point you are a competent driver and past that point we all become incompetent.

I do get slower as I become more aged, but what HAL does not realize is that I have learned to compensate for my decrepit state. I guess HAL and me just have a disagreement on the subject, so I turn the MUTE key on the occasions when I'm feeling like a young whippersnapper. :11:

 

[bwbike]

I always run with my traction control OFF. It's annoying, especially on slippery surfaces (like deep snow).

I find that driving in snow or ice that when the back end starts to tail out, I instinctively compensate and all is good and I keep driving along. If I try the same maneuver with the traction control ON, I end up over-compensating because the computer does its thing and I have already turned the steering wheel too far.

Traction control is only useful if you're not paying attention or if you don't have the skills to handle the car.

Then there are times on very slippery ice where you can benefit from spinning the tires very fast. Traction control won't let you do this.

 

[USRWDV8]

Did you know that when you lose traction on one tire, your car will apply brakes to the spinning tire, hoping to even things out?

If that doesn't help, the ESP will pull power, actually downshifting and chopping the electronic throttle.

Has anyone experiened this?

Helloooo! Yes, yes and yes. Did the ol' key trick on my Charger and got the NoESP mod on my Challenger to avoid this crap. Now I disagree that it's a bad system: I have tested it under various conditions and it works amazingly well (I was dubious about the one-wheel braking stopping slides). It's like ABS: a little weird, but effective. If you need it, by all means, use it. I'll feel safer being around you.

The problem is that, just like training wheels (that analogy is spot on), past a certain competence level ESP is not only unnecessary, but dangerous in that it will trip you up by fighting your inputs. It gets in the way. A good driver anticipates the car's reactions and makes his moves before the car even starts skidding so if there is interference you run into problems.

And HAL may be fast, but HAL doesn't have all the data (it is blind, deaf and not programmed to understand the concept of fun) so it can't possibly make all the right decisions. Losing traction is not always a big deal. If I give too much gas and overwhelm the tires then immediately lift off the pedal, the car often regains traction brutally and is catapulted forward, which can be planned and used to get out of a jam, like a vehicle gunning for you as you merge onto a wet road, for example. If I floor it and nothing happens at all, I'm just a sitting duck.

So experienced drivers and those seeking fun need the off switch to prevent TC from stopping a burnout or ESP from sabotaging a power slide (which may very well make you crash if you start compensating for a slide that never comes). Various factory buttons, aftermarket modules and jerry rigs (http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f18/traction-control-bypass-mod-172009/) achieve this, at least partially. Because most of the time, what we call 'TC off' or 'ESP off' is really a 50% to maybe 80% reduction. But that's usually enough to restore enough control and fun while staying safe on open roads.

I've felt the rear brakes being applied against my will while cornering hard, and I've gotten the sick feeling of a dying engine while Mr. Squiggly flashed because I had temporarily lost traction. One downside people claiming that ESP is a safety implement that shouldn't be messed with by over-confident and arrogant drivers forget or disregard is that if your car is powerful and you drive it hard its rear brakes will go up in smoke thanks to HAL's repeated attempts at staying in the No Spin Zone (TM). And too many people today are convinced that a car can't be driven safely with ESP off, which is maddening to me given how recent those nannies are.

So I disable ESP (which includes TC and ABS) as a matter of routine. I like to remain engaged and in control, I don't want a machine fighting my inputs, and I don't want to fry my brakes just because. Only in deluges do I leave the nannies on, more for liability reasons than anything else.

 

[trev]

Did you know that when you lose traction on one tire, your car will apply brakes to the spinning tire, hoping to even things out?

If that doesn't help, the ESP will pull power, actually downshifting and chopping the electronic throttle.

Has anyone experiened this?

I cashed my first challenger because of this, pulled data off the computer and almost sued them over it. I mean it was pretty clear even without the data. The cops that showed up could tell right away I was driving fine, no tire tracks nothing, car just decided it wanted to go a different direction when I was taking a left bend at 30 in a 35 touched some pine needles and everything went retarded.

They're lucky i'm not a litigious person, otherwise it would have been on like donkey kong.

 

[wasp392]

But this seems to only be an issue on automatic Challengers?

I've experienced this with my car which is a manual at the road track. I'm no expert when it comes to the nannies. The first few times taking the corners hard, I was like WTF? The car just acted weird and wanted to do its own thing but I'd always manage to correct it just in time. At more curvier tracks, I started to really really get annoyed with it and decided to turn the TC off. Wow, what a difference. No more power loss and really started to enjoy the experience more. Even pushed it hard at times past it's limits to where I completely lost control on purpose. See, since I don't drive my car too often and I'm not too familiar with the new technologies, I was reluctant to turn the damn thing off. Not wanting to experiment on the streets if you know what I mean. But now I'm more confident and starting to get to know this beast a little better. Never had this much power in my previous cars. You have to respect the power otherwise it'll kill you.
One thing I've learned is that you really have to push this car hard to make it lose traction with TC off. Not taking about burnouts and donuts.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App

 

[waumo]

OP - Since your signature says 09 SRT, you have a LSD rear in the car so it is unlikely you will be spinning one wheel. If you want to do a full burnout, press the TC button. If you want to burnout in circles, hold the TC button down until the chime tells you it is disabled. I'm not much on burnouts past a chirp because it is just lost acceleration.

 

[USRWDV8]

I've experienced this with my car which is a manual at the road track. I'm no expert when it comes to the nannies. The first few times taking the corners hard, I was like WTF? The car just acted weird and wanted to do its own thing but I'd always manage to correct it just in time. At more curvier tracks, I started to really really get annoyed with it and decided to turn the TC off. Wow, what a difference. No more power loss and really started to enjoy the experience more. Even pushed it hard at times past it's limits to where I completely lost control on purpose. See, since I don't drive my car too often and I'm not too familiar with the new technologies, I was reluctant to turn the damn thing off. Not wanting to experiment on the streets if you know what I mean. But now I'm more confident and starting to get to know this beast a little better. Never had this much power in my previous cars. You have to respect the power otherwise it'll kill you.
One thing I've learned is that you really have to push this car hard to make it lose traction with TC off. Not taking about burnouts and donuts.

Great post. The nannies are like FWD: a lowest common denominator lifesaver. If untrained people instinctively lift off the gas in a skid, you give them a FWD on which this common reflex will help regain traction, not a RWD that would end up fishtailing or in a 180. Bam! You don't have to know how to drive anymore. Similarly, ESP is a great help for hapless drivers or to play it real safe, but it becomes a hindrance to experienced drivers taking their cars to the limit on purpose. Making it on by default (or kinda difficult to disable on base cars) is a clear sign that Chrysler thinks that people don't know how to drive and/or are litigious... and they may be right on that.

The Challenger, like all LX-LC-LD cars is a pretty well sorted out car (even if it's far from the most sophisticated ever; it's good enough for me). So all nannies off is far from the risky proposition it's made out to be... as long as you've learned your car, have enough experience or are playing at the track. Frankly, the Charger and Challenger are the best cars I've ever owned, dynamically-speaking. I've driven some high-end stuff, but never got a chance to push it too hard.

To get back to the OP, it's very easy to lose traction on the street with even 370 HP (I did a burnout on a steep downhill road the other night...), so yes, the effects of ESP should be well known to most of us. Chrysler's ESP is a simplified version of the MBZ system (a pioneer) and, again, I think it's great IF you're either careless or incompetent. Otherwise WHO wants to lose power or have the brakes applied when they're driving?

 

[randycat99]

waumo, I thought it was just later auto SRT8's that came with a physical LSD. "All" Challengers have an "electronic" LSD program, though.

 

[OutlawRT]

I hate when I'm trying to power away and the car does it. OH IT PEEVES ME OFF..or when I'm drifting and the car decides to shift or get wonky.


Shifty

 

[waumo]

waumo, I thought it was just later auto SRT8's that came with a physical LSD. "All" Challengers have an "electronic" LSD program, though.

To my understanding, the 08 Challenger SRT8 was the only year SRT auto or manual with an open differential. My 09 SRT8 window sticker states under STANDARD EQUIPMENT "Anti-Spin Differential Rear Axle" and it definitely has it.

Our 10 Jeep SRT8 has an open diff though.