[kiwi_in_canada]

G'day,

Apologies in advance for the long post, but I'm looking for some advice as to how to proceed with different mechanics telling me different things. I've got another post on here that a received some brilliant technical info on the root cause of the problem, I'm now looking for any advice as to dealing with Midas, specifically in where I stand (legally I guess?) in terms of getting them to fix this mess. If anyone has a similar experience, I'd love to hear about it

Summarized Background:

• I bought a 2012 SXT Plus in Sept
• In about Nov, I got a CEL with code P06DD (oil pressure sensor stuck off)
• Took it to the local Midas (this is my first non-shitbox car and back home in NZ, its pretty rare to use dealers for repairs rather than independent or chain mechanics, so I didn't know any better)
• They replaced the oil pressure sensor and oil filter, CEL goes away
• 2 weeks later it comes back, I take it back, they tell me the new sensor must be faulty and replace it under warranty
• CEL comes back on within a few weeks again, by this time I've moved away (hence choosing chain of mechanics). The new local Midas tells me that the sensor is fine, so it must be the "oil filter housing and cooling assembly" which I get replaced (along with a new oil filter)
• Sure enough, its back a few weeks later, so I take it back again. This time I'm told that the next step is to replace the oil pump, although they can't guarantee that will fix it, but "it's what everything is pointing towards". Things are getting pretty pricy at this point, so I decide to hold off on fixing it
• After a month or so, when I've saved enough of my pennies, I go back and give them the go-ahead to replace the oil pump. At this stage, I've found some forum posts (on here and others) about people having this CEL code when a mechanic uses a non-Mopar oil filter. I ask them to check to make sure it's Mopar, even giving them all the info I'd found about it. They told me that it's definitely a Mopar filter in there
• The oil pump is replaced and when I go to pick up the car, the CEL is back on before I've got out of their carpark. Go back inside and their (so-called) head mechanic comes out and basically says "I dunno, just ignore the light, its not gonna damage your car".
• Obviously I don't accept that and finally take it to the local Dodge dealership. They tell me it has the wrong oil filter in it to start with, including having photos of a non-Mopar filter they took out of it, that was the wrong size and was squashed into the housing to make it fit. They eventually diagnose an incorrect voltage in the oil pressure sensor, which is causing the solenoid to stick. They say the PCM needs replaced and the part will be on back-order
• The PCM arrived last week and was fitted on Friday. The car was dropped off by Dodge and about 2 hrs later, I started in from inside the house with the remote-start function. 2 mins later, I go outside and it's dead. Turn it on with the button in the car and the CEL is back. I rang Dodge on Saturday and it was back with them on Monday.
• Dodge has now called me to say the the aftermarket oil pump Midas installed has stuck the solenoid again, causing the CEL to come on. They're willing to replace it with the correct part, but based on the cost have given me a chance to ring Midas first. I've just got off the phone with Midas and am waiting on a call from their head mechanic. Dodge are also saying that there's the chance that this f*&king oil pump may have now buggered the new PCM too.
• All up, I've dropped about 4k into Midas (including labour) on parts that were wrong or unnecessary due to bad diagnoses. On top of that is the 2k with Dodge for a a PCM that now may be ruined due to this pump and need to be replaced again.

Too long didn't read: Midas put an aftermarket oil pump in my car that dodge is saying is causing a CEL.

Does anyone know where I stand on getting Midas to pay for Dodge to do the replacement oil pump (and PCM if necessary)? I asked Dodge to put this in writing, but they've sent me an email basically saying the pump is causing the solenoid to stick. I have a strong suspicion that all Midas will agree to do is replace the pump under warranty with the exact same one, which is no good to me. I'm sure their argument will be that I didn't ask for a Mopar pump, but my thoughts on the matter are that I paid them to fix the cause of my CEL, if the part they use doesn't do that, they haven't "fixed" my car.

Any thoughts appreciated. Apologies for the rant

 

[Cuda340]

If Midas will not make good, I would take it to Small Claims Court.

HOW TO SUE SOMEONE, WIN AND COLLECT IN ANY CANADIAN SMALL CLAIMS COURT

Small Claims Courts in Canada provide a way for the average person to resolve simple disputes concerning money or property with a neighbour, a merchant and even a customer for amounts up to $50,000.

canlaw.com

.

 

[icecoldmn]

Lots of questions, how can a oil pump take out a pcm.
What is the actual oil pressure?

is the correct oil in the car?

how is the Mopar pump different than a aftermarket pump.

something seems fishy on all sides here

 

[kiwi_in_canada]

If Midas will not make good, I would take it to Small Claims Court.

HOW TO SUE SOMEONE, WIN AND COLLECT IN ANY CANADIAN SMALL CLAIMS COURT

Small Claims Courts in Canada provide a way for the average person to resolve simple disputes concerning money or property with a neighbour, a merchant and even a customer for amounts up to $50,000.

canlaw.com

.

That was my initial thoughts, but desperately hoping it won't come to that

Lots of questions, how can a oil pump take out a pcm.
What is the actual oil pressure?

is the correct oil in the car?

how is the Mopar pump different than a aftermarket pump.

something seems fishy on all sides here

I didn't ask for full details from Dodge regarding that, but my understanding is that the voltage coming from the pump was off, which I would assume either shorted something in the PCM or has buggered it in some other way

I'm confident the correct oil is in it, as Dodge put it in themselves

I've been trying to figure that out, the Midas mechanic called this avo and assured me that the right pump for the model was installed, but I'm inclined to believe Dodge over him. The only possibility I've come up with is that the PCM's have been programmed to reject anything but OEM, thus forcing people into Mopar parts, but if that was the case, I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to be having this issue.

Agreed, its all very strange. Either someone is wildly incompetent, lying, or a combination of both. Either way, I'm down about $7k at this point

 

[icecoldmn]

Just a quick search on the 3.6 pentastar and the trouble code makes for a bunch of reading, personally I’d look at the actual engine oil pressures and the electrical harness. My guess is you have some sort of electrical issue.

the mechanics nowadays just throw parts at it hoping to fix things that’s why I do the same myself I’m way cheaper.

good luck your situation sucks

 

[ApolloX86]

I despise Midas. Doesn't matter where in Canada they are, absolutely useless.

As to your issue at hand... Something seems off on all the diags you've gotten.

The fact that it takes time to come back, tells a lot. For one, I wouldn't immediately suspect a wiring issue. A broken wire; loose connector; broken connection etc would set a hard fault that wouldn't come and go, it would be on all the time. That being said, if the code won't clear at all when it finally re-appears, that would indicate some sort of hard connection issue that maybe takes time to appear because the connection breaks after a while, say like a connector that has a unsecured terminal that works it's way out with vibration over time. Or corrosion.

I wouldn't suspect the oil pump. It's a chain driven two stage unit, runs low and high depending on engine demand. Not much to go wrong in a setup like that, and the fact that Midas has disturbed yours and replaced it with an aftermarket one? That's just peachy. Absolute numbskulls. I won't say that's the source of the problem now, but I would definitely say it wasn't the source before they changed it.

The pressure switch receives a constant voltage from the PCM and depending on pressure, the voltage sent back to the PCM changes, and it's compared against a baseline value. Pressure switches being Mopar or not, they're not going to flag the PCM per se, but it is true that an aftermarket one may operate at slightly different values from an OE, and maybe the PCM is just picky enough to pick up on this variance. Possible. Was it the PCM? Hard to say, I'd have to see it first hand and do some probing to tell you yes or no on that.

Was this all likely caused initially by using non-OE (or just cheap, like FRAM) filters and crap oil? I hate to preach about it, but more than likely. Places like Midas thrive on repeat business, they don't give a shit about quality work, they're all about sell, sell, sell. Do it fast, do it cheap, and make sure they come back.

The problem is you've now had so many fingers in the pudding it's downright impossible to know the true source, likely the issue has been made far worse than it initially was.

Also... sticking solenoids? Honestly the only thing I could see making a solenoid stick in this case would be a failure causing a constant "high" signal, be it a 5V signal/reference controlling a 12V hot lead or another style. Again, not likely to be the oil pump itself, likely the source is a loose terminal, or even simple terminal fretting that happens as connectors age. Or corrosion. This is Dodge we are talking about, after all.

Long winded response, I know. So TLDR; Probably not the oil pump. Midas sucks. I feel for you. If you're near Kingston, ON I'll come help you out, you just supply a beer and an ice capp.

 

[Rockster]

That was my initial thoughts, but desperately hoping it won't come to that



I didn't ask for full details from Dodge regarding that, but my understanding is that the voltage coming from the pump was off, which I would assume either shorted something in the PCM or has buggered it in some other way

I'm confident the correct oil is in it, as Dodge put it in themselves

I've been trying to figure that out, the Midas mechanic called this avo and assured me that the right pump for the model was installed, but I'm inclined to believe Dodge over him. The only possibility I've come up with is that the PCM's have been programmed to reject anything but OEM, thus forcing people into Mopar parts, but if that was the case, I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to be having this issue.

Agreed, its all very strange. Either someone is wildly incompetent, lying, or a combination of both. Either way, I'm down about $7k at this point

FYI while the chart may show the aftermarket oil pump is the "right" pump for the car's engine that chart was made by the oil pump maker not Dodge.

Any aftermarket part/assembly that has an electronics -- even a sensor -- in it may prove to be incompatible. Among other things I wrote test software for consumer and commercial products and encountered differences in electronic components from different manufacturers -- even if the chart showed the components the right component and interchangeable -- and even from the same manufacturer. More than once a critical event's timing would be different and my test software would catch this.

The part wasn't bad per se just had a different response time or signal time that caused a problem because it was different and different enough from what was expected.

 

[Frank Julian]

Wow, I know my local Midas store's manager here in the states. I buy the oil, and filter I want in my car and take it to them and give them $35.00 to change it. I buy all MOPAR oil and SRT filters for this exact reason. Should have bought the MOPAR pup, Filter and sensor and taken it to them.

 

[MiHiHemi]

Dang, nothing worse than going down that "parts chasing" rabbit hole...on your dime. Sorry to hear this man, hope things get ironed out for you.

 

[Greg Cooper]

G'day,

Apologies in advance for the long post, but I'm looking for some advice as to how to proceed with different mechanics telling me different things. I've got another post on here that a received some brilliant technical info on the root cause of the problem, I'm now looking for any advice as to dealing with Midas, specifically in where I stand (legally I guess?) in terms of getting them to fix this mess. If anyone has a similar experience, I'd love to hear about it

Summarized Background:

• I bought a 2012 SXT Plus in Sept
• In about Nov, I got a CEL with code P06DD (oil pressure sensor stuck off)
• Took it to the local Midas (this is my first non-shitbox car and back home in NZ, its pretty rare to use dealers for repairs rather than independent or chain mechanics, so I didn't know any better)
• They replaced the oil pressure sensor and oil filter, CEL goes away
• 2 weeks later it comes back, I take it back, they tell me the new sensor must be faulty and replace it under warranty
• CEL comes back on within a few weeks again, by this time I've moved away (hence choosing chain of mechanics). The new local Midas tells me that the sensor is fine, so it must be the "oil filter housing and cooling assembly" which I get replaced (along with a new oil filter)
• Sure enough, its back a few weeks later, so I take it back again. This time I'm told that the next step is to replace the oil pump, although they can't guarantee that will fix it, but "it's what everything is pointing towards". Things are getting pretty pricy at this point, so I decide to hold off on fixing it
• After a month or so, when I've saved enough of my pennies, I go back and give them the go-ahead to replace the oil pump. At this stage, I've found some forum posts (on here and others) about people having this CEL code when a mechanic uses a non-Mopar oil filter. I ask them to check to make sure it's Mopar, even giving them all the info I'd found about it. They told me that it's definitely a Mopar filter in there
• The oil pump is replaced and when I go to pick up the car, the CEL is back on before I've got out of their carpark. Go back inside and their (so-called) head mechanic comes out and basically says "I dunno, just ignore the light, its not gonna damage your car".
• Obviously I don't accept that and finally take it to the local Dodge dealership. They tell me it has the wrong oil filter in it to start with, including having photos of a non-Mopar filter they took out of it, that was the wrong size and was squashed into the housing to make it fit. They eventually diagnose an incorrect voltage in the oil pressure sensor, which is causing the solenoid to stick. They say the PCM needs replaced and the part will be on back-order
• The PCM arrived last week and was fitted on Friday. The car was dropped off by Dodge and about 2 hrs later, I started in from inside the house with the remote-start function. 2 mins later, I go outside and it's dead. Turn it on with the button in the car and the CEL is back. I rang Dodge on Saturday and it was back with them on Monday.
• Dodge has now called me to say the the aftermarket oil pump Midas installed has stuck the solenoid again, causing the CEL to come on. They're willing to replace it with the correct part, but based on the cost have given me a chance to ring Midas first. I've just got off the phone with Midas and am waiting on a call from their head mechanic. Dodge are also saying that there's the chance that this f*&king oil pump may have now buggered the new PCM too.
• All up, I've dropped about 4k into Midas (including labour) on parts that were wrong or unnecessary due to bad diagnoses. On top of that is the 2k with Dodge for a a PCM that now may be ruined due to this pump and need to be replaced again.

Too long didn't read: Midas put an aftermarket oil pump in my car that dodge is saying is causing a CEL.

Does anyone know where I stand on getting Midas to pay for Dodge to do the replacement oil pump (and PCM if necessary)? I asked Dodge to put this in writing, but they've sent me an email basically saying the pump is causing the solenoid to stick. I have a strong suspicion that all Midas will agree to do is replace the pump under warranty with the exact same one, which is no good to me. I'm sure their argument will be that I didn't ask for a Mopar pump, but my thoughts on the matter are that I paid them to fix the cause of my CEL, if the part they use doesn't do that, they haven't "fixed" my car.

Any thoughts appreciated. Apologies for the rant

Do you have a picture of the so called incorrect filter?
The pre 2014 3.6 is a different filter than the 2014 to present filter.

 

[A Guy]

I don't know about legalities of changing parts on your dime that don't repair the issue...basically misdiagnosing. Then possibly causing issues with wrong parts installed

I will say that I see no way Midas will agree to pay for someone else to repair it. If anything, they'd only agree to repair it themselves. But I don't see them admitting if they were at fault. Unless corporate can help you, a lawyer consultation would likely be needed. I don't know small claims will work unless you have convincing evidence that Midas not only misdiagnosed, but used parts that caused new issues

A Guy

 

[kiwi_in_canada]

Hi all,

Thanks for everyone's insight, much appreciated.
As an update:
Rang Midas who basically said the Dodge don't know what they're talking about. There's nothing wrong with the pump they installed, a new PCM wasn't required and they asked before they installed the pump if that's what I wanted to do, so it's all my fault. His recommendation was to buy a 2nd hand, low mileage engine and replace it in my car, for which he graciously said he could get me a quote for..... He even went so far to say that the dodge dealership is dodgy (excuse the pun) and they have people come to them all the time to remedy issues after going there (sure you do pal).
Didn't seem to understand my position, being that I paid him to rectify the fault in my car that is causing the CEL, not the put that specific model of pump in it.

Called dodge, who have assured me they are "100% confident" the pump is the issue, with the caveat being that this pump may now have also shorted out the new pcm, as happened with the last one. I've given the go ahead for dodge to replace the pump which is happening today, so fingers crossed that the pcm is still fine. They also gave me their 2022 Durango demo model with 93km on it as a loaner because they had no loaners available, so very impressed with them.

As for Midas, I'll be contacting a no-win, no-fee small claims lawyer next week and handing it off to them to go after them for: the costs I've incurred for them installing the wrong pump, and for the pcm as it was damaged by the pump.

I despise Midas. Doesn't matter where in Canada they are, absolutely useless.

As to your issue at hand... Something seems off on all the diags you've gotten.

The fact that it takes time to come back, tells a lot. For one, I wouldn't immediately suspect a wiring issue. A broken wire; loose connector; broken connection etc would set a hard fault that wouldn't come and go, it would be on all the time. That being said, if the code won't clear at all when it finally re-appears, that would indicate some sort of hard connection issue that maybe takes time to appear because the connection breaks after a while, say like a connector that has a unsecured terminal that works it's way out with vibration over time. Or corrosion.

I wouldn't suspect the oil pump. It's a chain driven two stage unit, runs low and high depending on engine demand. Not much to go wrong in a setup like that, and the fact that Midas has disturbed yours and replaced it with an aftermarket one? That's just peachy. Absolute numbskulls. I won't say that's the source of the problem now, but I would definitely say it wasn't the source before they changed it.

The pressure switch receives a constant voltage from the PCM and depending on pressure, the voltage sent back to the PCM changes, and it's compared against a baseline value. Pressure switches being Mopar or not, they're not going to flag the PCM per se, but it is true that an aftermarket one may operate at slightly different values from an OE, and maybe the PCM is just picky enough to pick up on this variance. Possible. Was it the PCM? Hard to say, I'd have to see it first hand and do some probing to tell you yes or no on that.

Was this all likely caused initially by using non-OE (or just cheap, like FRAM) filters and crap oil? I hate to preach about it, but more than likely. Places like Midas thrive on repeat business, they don't give a shit about quality work, they're all about sell, sell, sell. Do it fast, do it cheap, and make sure they come back.

The problem is you've now had so many fingers in the pudding it's downright impossible to know the true source, likely the issue has been made far worse than it initially was.

Also... sticking solenoids? Honestly the only thing I could see making a solenoid stick in this case would be a failure causing a constant "high" signal, be it a 5V signal/reference controlling a 12V hot lead or another style. Again, not likely to be the oil pump itself, likely the source is a loose terminal, or even simple terminal fretting that happens as connectors age. Or corrosion. This is Dodge we are talking about, after all.

Long winded response, I know. So TLDR; Probably not the oil pump. Midas sucks. I feel for you. If you're near Kingston, ON I'll come help you out, you just supply a beer and an ice capp.

Hah mate, Kingston is where this saga began. I was going to the Midas on Princess St. Had I had the brains to post on here in December, I would have supplied you with a years worth of beer to avoid this debacle 🤣

Edit: They've shipped me off the Borden now, and I'm here til my posting ends in September, so using the Barrie branches

 

[ApolloX86]

Hah mate, Kingston is where this saga began. I was going to the Midas on Princess St. Had I had the brains to post on here in December, I would have supplied you with a years worth of beer to avoid this debacle 🤣

Edit: They've shipped me off the Borden now, and I'm here til my posting ends in September, so using the Barrie branches

Oh no, that's terrible! They are literally the worst. I know both the Midas shops in this area, and both are equally nasty. Had a friend who took her car in for an oil change and left with a bill for a control arm that they never actually changed. Had me livid.

Well my friend, if you make it back this way at any time, send me a message and I'll happily help you out if you can't get this problem fixed.

 

[Frank Julian]

see if Dodge will send someone to testify that Midas's pump caused the problems.

 

[kiwi_in_canada]

see if Dodge will send someone to testify that Midas's pump caused the problems.

Yeah mate, I'm gonna get them to produce a full technical report detailing it all