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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #1
I am constantly surprised at the number of tuner owners I talk to that have never used their device to generate datalogs, or if they have datalogged some driving, it was only in the beginning and very seldom do it anymore.

And when I ask them why, the #1 answer (excuse) I hear is that it’s too much of a hassle to do all that.

That’s a bunch of horse-hockey, people!!!

You’re just being lazy, and you need to get past it and start doing the right thing again!

For anyone that thinks it is truly too much of a hassle to generate and record their datalogs, you should know you actually have it pretty good. It could be worse, you could have a Predator and have to set up a laptop to remain on and running to record your logs while you drive:
C17F8A8A-5411-482F-AAA6-E14DE531E116_1522823648432.jpg

You don’t know the meaning of hassle when it comes to datalogging until you’ve had to maintain that ugly setup for a while.

It works, but man o’ man it is a PITA!!!

So there, you now have no excuses left. Get out there and do some datalogging!!
 

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Trinity 2 is the only tuner I've ever used. Creating a data log couldn't be easier, press the log button to start a log, press it again to stop logging, press the save file button. Next connect the tuner to the laptop or download the file and view it with dataviewer.

Trying to make sense of the data is challenging but it's a great way to learn how the vehicle is performing and where improvements can be made. In any case it's data, better than eyes, ears, and the famously unreliable butt dyno.
 
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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #3
Trinity 2 is the only tuner I've ever used. Creating a data log couldn't be easier, press the log button to start a log, press it again to stop logging, press the save file button. Next connect the tuner to the laptop or download the file and view it with dataviewer.
yeah, I had a taste of the datalogging good life with my last Challenger. I had an intune-1000-DCX, and it was a pleasure to do the datalogs compared to the Predator. But I will say have that elaborate setup running in the backseat while I drive is good for something my intune wasn’t - an excuse/distraction/reason to get some leniency from local JLs (aka Johnny Law...and if it’s his hillbilly cousin who is a sheriff deputy, it stands for Johnny LawDog, YEEHAW!)

There has twice that I’ve been nailed speeding while doing some datalogging (and all the types of driving that requires, hehe) that the officer asked me why I was going so fast, blah, blah, blah, and when I explain I wasn’t headed anywhere in a hurry but on a science mission instead, it has ended up benefitting me that I could point to the laptop in the backseat with the scrolling graphs to show as proof.

I mean, I explained what it was actually recording and such, but both times the officer got really interested and wanted to see more and talk about it in more detail, and so on. The first time it happened, I ended up only getting a warning for speeding. The next time I did get a ticket, but he was pretty cool about it by knocking the speed way down to just 10% over speed limit. That saved me almost $200 in extra fines alone!

Let’s see your new fangled trinity do that!




Trying to make sense of the data is challenging but it's a great way to learn how the vehicle is performing and where improvements can be made. In any case it's data, better than eyes, ears, and the famously unreliable butt dyno.

I have tried to impart that exact sentiment to so many tuner owners (or prospective tuner buyers sitting on the fence) that I have literally stopped counting. Sadly, I don’t think I’ve been able to get the point across yet because those that had one but wouldn’t use it other than to load/unload tunes still only do that with their tuners.

And I can only think of one person I might have convinced the devices were good for more than tune loads, but he tried datalogging once and sent it to me when he couldn’t figure out how to make it tell him what he was right about some assumption on an intermittentl backfire. Once I said I couldn’t use his logs to diagnose such a problem either, not in the state they were in anyway (too few PIDs, not the needed ones). So he promptly put it on the shelf and hasn’t even tried to datalog again but with better PIDs!

*sigh*

Just like that old saying: you can give a horse some orders, but you can’t make him think. So true, so true...

 

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For anyone that thinks it is truly too much of a hassle to generate and record their datalogs, you should know you actually have it pretty good. It could be worse, you could have a Predator and have to set up a laptop to remain on and running to record your logs while you drive:
A laptop? Fancy. Let's talk about a Palm M100 using a serial adapter and tapping pins so you could come home and pull the EEPROM and flash it, only to rinse and repeat.

;)


Kids these days have it easy. :bigmouth:
 

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Logging with a trinity is calkwalk. Adding PIDs is straight forward too. Now using HP tuners that requires a little bit more work and can be done without a laptop but then you have no real-time display of data.

Problem with the trinity though is after you log, editing of the tune is quite limited unless you know someone with CMR.

Now if only the weather here would cooperate, I would be driving/logging/tweaking to and from work.
 

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Logging with a trinity is calkwalk. Adding PIDs is straight forward too. Now using HP tuners that requires a little bit more work and can be done without a laptop but then you have no real-time display of data.

Problem with the trinity though is after you log, editing of the tune is quite limited unless you know someone with CMR.

Now if only the weather here would cooperate, I would be driving/logging/tweaking to and from work.

What? The snow we woke up to... hahaha
 

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Logging with a trinity is calkwalk. Adding PIDs is straight forward too. Now using HP tuners that requires a little bit more work
and requires a lot more knowledge than creating a data log then sending it to the tuner. Wanted to go with HP Tuners but realized I had no idea how to tune. So, went with Diablo and a Tuner. I hope to graduate to the big league someday but to Nuke's point If one doesn't data log and try to understand the data they will never learn.
 

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I am constantly surprised at the number of tuner owners I talk to that have never used their device to generate datalogs, or if they have datalogged some driving, it was only in the beginning and very seldom do it anymore.

And when I ask them why, the #1 answer (excuse) I hear is that it’s too much of a hassle to do all that.

That’s a bunch of horse-hockey, people!!!

You’re just being lazy, and you need to get past it and start doing the right thing again!

For anyone that thinks it is truly too much of a hassle to generate and record their datalogs, you should know you actually have it pretty good. It could be worse, you could have a Predator and have to set up a laptop to remain on and running to record your logs while you drive:
View attachment 902298

You don’t know the meaning of hassle when it comes to datalogging until you’ve had to maintain that ugly setup for a while.

It works, but man o’ man it is a PITA!!!

So there, you now have no excuses left. Get out there and do some datalogging!!
That white cord coming out from between your seats wouldn't be your trunk opener would it???
 

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and requires a lot more knowledge than creating a data log then sending it to the tuner.
There is definitely a learning curve and even setting up PIDs/parameters for logging is not so straight forward in HPT. Going from a Trinity to VCM scanner (editor is another chapter of complexity) is like going from simple addition to complex variable analysis. :grin2: I now spend most of my time reading posts in the HP tuner form and books by Banish. My biggest challenge is knowing what tables in VCM editor must be changed to get desired effects?

For example, on hot start up my car sounds like a wuss...it barely comes alive and I want it to roar like it does at cold start. In HPT there is a desired airflow startup chart, startup adder chart, and an elevated idle setpoint chart based off engine temp and run time in seconds. Modifying the latter chart gives the desired effect I am looking for but I wonder if this is the best way or if modifications to a different or all charts is required? Yes it is way more complex but for approx the same price of a trinity it gives you way more functionality. Plus, I can use it on multiple vehicles without having to unmarry the interface.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #11
That white cord coming out from between your seats wouldn't be your trunk opener would it???
HAHA!! That is actually the former remote access cable for my emergency pull handle, yes.

It is no longer hooked up since I replaced the trunk latch last weekend, but the cable is still run through the back seat as you can see. That is because it was part of a childish April Fools joke I tried to snare Mrs. Nuke into and I just haven't removed it yet now that I no longer need it.

Actually, now that I think about it, there is a reason it is still there. I keep thinking I will grab a ruler from work and mark 65mm on the end of that zip tie and then stash it in my trunk for the next time I want to check my transmission fluid level and I am away from the house where I keep my regular fluid checker hootus thingy.

So it may just remain in the car for the foreseeable future now that I think about it! :grin2:
 
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Discussion Starter #12
...
Plus, I can use it on multiple vehicles without having to unmarry the interface.
HEY BUDDY!! I don't mind you dialogging (pun intended?) with other members in my thread here, but you should know I am a firm believer in the sanctity of marriage! So you can just take all that gutter-talk about polyamory and swapping wives or whatever, and just go somewhere else with it!!

(That is, unless, you got an extra one for me? I'll look the other way if I get a share of the booty (pun definitely intended!) :redblob:)

Wait, we are talking about women, wives, etc. here, aren't we?!?!?
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #13
There is definitely a learning curve and even setting up PIDs/parameters for logging is not so straight forward in HPT. Going from a Trinity to VCM scanner (editor is another chapter of complexity) is like going from simple addition to complex variable analysis. :grin2: I now spend most of my time reading posts in the HP tuner form and books by Banish. My biggest challenge is knowing what tables in VCM editor must be changed to get desired effects?
...
While we're on the subject of the biggest challenges of manually modifying your Challenger's tune, there is one aspect to all that which I constantly wonder about and hopefully you can finally shed some light on for me: how do you account for discrepancies (real and/or imagined) between sensor readings from the critical sensors? Or is it best to just avoid trying to correct for that and follow the scripts already in place?

Ugh, it has just occurred to me that you probably do not have the ability to read my thoughts. As such, I feel I should try to explain what I am asking more clearly...so here goes:

Let's say I intended to modified my car's tune with the intention of adjusting the air/fuel mix getting burned during WOT. Now, given my understanding of how things work when the engine is in WOT operation, here's what I think I know - the tune uses pre-existing values of fuel injector pulse widths which are laid out in a table(s) according to their corresponding volumetric efficiencies. Thus, if I were making a change to a certain subset of pWs (in an attempt to meet a target a/f ratio, for example) I would only need to find their respective VEs in the existing pW-VE tables, and that lookup gives me which pWs to modify in the tune's table of values.

Then once I make the change(s) to the table of pWs (still for WOT) and save the tune back to the PCM, I am basically done. The ECU uses the new values the next time WOT (and open loop) is detected, allowing me to confirm or deny my changes did what I wanted to them to do. Further, upon confirmation it all worked, I would be all like, "WOOHOO!! Let's strip down to our skivvies and check each other for fleas and ticks!" But then my guests would be all like, "But we aren't wearing any skivvies!" And I would be all like, "Hehe, I know, why do you think I invited you!! A-HAHAHA!"

But I digest...

Anwyay, so given all that, it seems insanely obvious to point this out, but we can agree that the VE values HAVE to be accurate or everything else is thrown off when adjustments to pW are made, right?

"Yes, Nuke, yes! A thousand times, YES!! Get to it already!"

"Okay, hold your horses, I'm still making sure I am clear here. What about when the VE values are not accurate, and you know they won't be, but you cannot predict when (except sometime during WOT)?"

"Aye de mi, que lastima!! Nuke, spit it out!!"

"Maybe this would work better if I just gave you some real-life examples."

"I can't wait...no literally, Nuke, I CAN'T WAIT!"

Alright, so I have 2 datalogs from yesterday in which I see identical, yet unexpected KR spikes where previously there had been none. My first instinct was to address them somehow, but I decided to leave them alone because I don't believe the VE being calculated at those times is correct (thus the fuel is inadequate/excessive, and the a/f ratio is hosed, etc., etc. unpredictable results, yada, yada, yada)

Basically, in both datalogs at the spike time, I am operating at WOT and approaching the upper end of the RPM range in question. But right before it hits the upper limit (and a shift in gears is commanded), I get a 3.5 degree spike of ST KR...in both logs...keep in mind, this is happening where previously there had been no KR spikes for this particular tune.

The repeatability/predictability of the KR spikes tells me they are not due to chance or some extraneous factor. Yet the sudden appearance of the spikes, in spite of no changes being made to the tune or the engine, leads me to believe no action should be taken to address the KR since they are likely to go away on their own. Plus any changes meant to address them will continue to affect the tune long after whatever is actually causing the spikes goes away on its own.

Ultimately I did nothing to the tune to try to address the spikes, and as I expected, they have gone away. The culprit, as best I can tell, was the inaccurate readings given to the ECU by the IAT sensor after being heat-soaked at several adjacent stop lights. During both spikes, the ambient temp is nearly 30F lower than the temp the IAT is reporting to the ECU. And in that situation, I don't see how I can trust the calculations being done by the ECU regarding injector pulse width, VE, etc.

So back to my original question: if you know that sort of scenario will play out countless times every single time the engine is in operation, what do you do (if anything) to counter it or correct for it when you are manually modifying the tune's important parameters, e.g. injector pulse width or spark timing?


(One last thing - please phrase your answer in the form of a question!)
 

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While we're on the subject of the biggest challenges of manually modifying your Challenger's tune, there is one aspect to all that which I constantly wonder about and hopefully you can finally shed some light on for me: how do you account for discrepancies (real and/or imagined) between sensor readings from the critical sensors? Or is it best to just avoid trying to correct for that and follow the scripts already in place?

Ugh, it has just occurred to me that you probably do not have the ability to read my thoughts. As such, I feel I should try to explain what I am asking more clearly...so here goes:

Let's say I intended to modified my car's tune with the intention of adjusting the air/fuel mix getting burned during WOT. Now, given my understanding of how things work when the engine is in WOT operation, here's what I think I know - the tune uses pre-existing values of fuel injector pulse widths which are laid out in a table(s) according to their corresponding volumetric efficiencies. Thus, if I were making a change to a certain subset of pWs (in an attempt to meet a target a/f ratio, for example) I would only need to find their respective VEs in the existing pW-VE tables, and that lookup gives me which pWs to modify in the tune's table of values.

Then once I make the change(s) to the table of pWs (still for WOT) and save the tune back to the PCM, I am basically done. The ECU uses the new values the next time WOT (and open loop) is detected, allowing me to confirm or deny my changes did what I wanted to them to do. Further, upon confirmation it all worked, I would be all like, "WOOHOO!! Let's strip down to our skivvies and check each other for fleas and ticks!" But then my guests would be all like, "But we aren't wearing any skivvies!" And I would be all like, "Hehe, I know, why do you think I invited you!! A-HAHAHA!"

But I digest...

Anwyay, so given all that, it seems insanely obvious to point this out, but we can agree that the VE values HAVE to be accurate or everything else is thrown off when adjustments to pW are made, right?

"Yes, Nuke, yes! A thousand times, YES!! Get to it already!"

"Okay, hold your horses, I'm still making sure I am clear here. What about when the VE values are not accurate, and you know they won't be, but you cannot predict when (except sometime during WOT)?"

"Aye de mi, que lastima!! Nuke, spit it out!!"

"Maybe this would work better if I just gave you some real-life examples."

"I can't wait...no literally, Nuke, I CAN'T WAIT!"

Alright, so I have 2 datalogs from yesterday in which I see identical, yet unexpected KR spikes where previously there had been none. My first instinct was to address them somehow, but I decided to leave them alone because I don't believe the VE being calculated at those times is correct (thus the fuel is inadequate/excessive, and the a/f ratio is hosed, etc., etc. unpredictable results, yada, yada, yada)

Basically, in both datalogs at the spike time, I am operating at WOT and approaching the upper end of the RPM range in question. But right before it hits the upper limit (and a shift in gears is commanded), I get a 3.5 degree spike of ST KR...in both logs...keep in mind, this is happening where previously there had been no KR spikes for this particular tune.

The repeatability/predictability of the KR spikes tells me they are not due to chance or some extraneous factor. Yet the sudden appearance of the spikes, in spite of no changes being made to the tune or the engine, leads me to believe no action should be taken to address the KR since they are likely to go away on their own. Plus any changes meant to address them will continue to affect the tune long after whatever is actually causing the spikes goes away on its own.

Ultimately I did nothing to the tune to try to address the spikes, and as I expected, they have gone away. The culprit, as best I can tell, was the inaccurate readings given to the ECU by the IAT sensor after being heat-soaked at several adjacent stop lights. During both spikes, the ambient temp is nearly 30F lower than the temp the IAT is reporting to the ECU. And in that situation, I don't see how I can trust the calculations being done by the ECU regarding injector pulse width, VE, etc.

So back to my original question: if you know that sort of scenario will play out countless times every single time the engine is in operation, what do you do (if anything) to counter it or correct for it when you are manually modifying the tune's important parameters, e.g. injector pulse width or spark timing?


(One last thing - please phrase your answer in the form of a question!)
The problem is not datalogging, but how would you interpret the data, and how can you modify things to improve/fix what the data is showing you :), you have summed it all up here already.
KR strategies are neat,and i've seen in them in action in Chevrolet, Ford, and now Dodge applicatons, the idea in general is to remove enough timing to prevent further knock, you'll find there is a short term and long term strategy that the PCM employs to do this, in your case, the PCM migh be retarding enough time from the long time KR strategy so that there is no more KR spikes present. Ford for example goes a step beyond, not only they can remove timing due to KR, they can also add timind in the absence of KR to a preset value, and that value can be changed, talking aboout real on demand timing hahaha.
 
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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #15
The problem is not datalogging, but how would you interpret the data, and how can you modify things to improve/fix what the data is showing you :), you have summed it all up here already.
KR strategies are neat,and i've seen in them in action in Chevrolet, Ford, and now Dodge applicatons, the idea in general is to remove enough timing to prevent further knock, you'll find there is a short term and long term strategy that the PCM employs to do this, in your case, the PCM migh be retarding enough time from the long time KR strategy so that there is no more KR spikes present. Ford for example goes a step beyond, not only they can remove timing due to KR, they can also add timind in the absence of KR to a preset value, and that value can be changed, talking aboout real on demand timing hahaha.
I have mine fine tuned (as much one can with the knowledge and tools available) to point that I am not concerned about spark timing when I see KR anymore. The timing is not exotic, and in fact is not beyond what the canned tune had in its settings by default. But I ditched the 93 octane version and started running the 91 octane version and always keep its thirst quenched with 93 octane gasoline just to be safe (and hit the octane requirement of the tune, with some left over hopefully). And this version of the 91 I am running now, combined with everything else, runs much better than I could ever get the 93 octane version to run.

So when I see KR now (ST, that is...LT gets special treatment if it ever shows up, which has been exceedingly rare thankfully), I operate under the assumption it is due to a lean a/f mix or some other known edge case for temporary knock conditions, e.g. malfunctioning EGR system, poor quality gasoline, or even the ever elusive self-test.

I know that last one is a thing, and that it is a possibility any time I see brief ST KR spike, but I do not know how often it tends to occur, nor do I know any situations in which it is more likely to happen. I just wish I had a sure-fire method to either control it or know when it is imminent so I can ignore it when it shows in the logs.

Although I guess I am making assumptions there that could be in error, right...I mean, if the ECU is commanding the engine to operate in such a fashion so as to produce Knock (advanced timing is most likely), and the knock sensor(s) pass the test by detecting the knock, would the ECU prevent the subsequent KR from taking place (and thereby getting logged), or would it behave like normal and retard timing and log that as KR just like always?

So many questions, so few answers...maybe I should just stop coming up with them...ask me no questions and I’ll tell you no lies, or something like that...
 

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:zlurking:
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Discussion Starter #17
:zlurking:
HEY!!! I BEEN LOOKING FOR YOU!


Well, not so much looking for you, more like I keep thinking I should sent you a PM and see if you ever got a dodge house there to diagnose and successfully resolve your charging system issue.

I'm pretty sure you were in on the last thread I had where I revealed they finally pinpointed the culprit on mine (wiring harness), so that thing is over thankfully. But I know yours seemed to have no end to it...

WELL?!?!? SPILL IT MISTER! Gimme the skinny on wassaponing wit ur 2 do'her EL Ex!
 

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HEY BUDDY!! I don't mind you dialogging (pun intended?) with other members in my thread here, but you should know I am a firm believer in the sanctity of marriage! So you can just take all that gutter-talk about polyamory and swapping wives or whatever, and just go somewhere else with it!!

(That is, unless, you got an extra one for me? I'll look the other way if I get a share of the booty (pun definitely intended!) :redblob:)

Wait, we are talking about women, wives, etc. here, aren't we?!?!?
I was only posting knowledge obtained from a piece of parchment I found in my hat after a stone fell into it. >:)

As for polyamory....I have a hard enough time managing monoamory...and if I spend too much time and money on the car I may soon be down the path of aloneamory.
 

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@Nuke, my reality suggest that since the stock PCM runs with NN on it essentially ignores the VE tables as the PCM monitors sensors and adapts to meet the a target stoich while minimizing knock by adjusting spark accordingly. It does this for part throttle conditions (for stock that means pedal voltage <3.0V). For WOT, fueling and spark reference power enrich (stoich adders) and WOT spark advance tables. These values are prescribed by the tune and are not adjusted by the PCM. In fact, these are the tables the Diablo Trinity adjust (although I found it only adjusts a portion of the tables for the rpm range selected and aircharge values above 600mg-ish if I remember correctly) for WOT. As for the injectors, there is a table for fuel mass vs pulse width (again this table is prescribed and not adjusted by the PCM) so that the PCM knows how much to pulse the injectors to get a dose of fuel to meet the stoich being demanded.

BTW there are HOT and IAT spark tables that retard timing based on engine and intake temps. If the IAT was reporting higher than actual aircharge temp values it would have pull timing. Now if you had HPT you could demand more fuel in that region through the power enrich table and see if it helps or you can opt to pull timing. Otherwise, you can use the trinity to make adjustments but it will be propagated across an RPM range. Alternatively you can run some Torco and see if knock is still present, if it is then it may be a false reading from another noise source.

Update:
VE is always used NN or not, but with NN on its one very small input to the final equation. NN is very fast to always calculate and end up back at a total calculated engine required airflow and fuel. Even if VE is all wacked out, the NN will apply algos to get back to whatever aircharge your engine displacement should need, that's why you see almost no change with NN on and changing your VE. On the otherhand, the fuel supply is a much simpler calc for the ECU and so that is why changing injector data is a faster and more direct way to change fueling with NN on.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthre...t-throttle-AFR&p=519500&viewfull=1#post519500
 

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HEY!!! I BEEN LOOKING FOR YOU!


Well, not so much looking for you, more like I keep thinking I should sent you a PM and see if you ever got a dodge house there to diagnose and successfully resolve your charging system issue.

I'm pretty sure you were in on the last thread I had where I revealed they finally pinpointed the culprit on mine (wiring harness), so that thing is over thankfully. But I know yours seemed to have no end to it...

WELL?!?!? SPILL IT MISTER! Gimme the skinny on wassaponing wit ur 2 do'her EL Ex!
Do you want the long or short version of this never ending fiasco? Never mind, you don't get to choose.

To start with, the dealership has known about all of my performance modifications since day one. I'm an honest guy, and a supercharger and long tube headers are sort of obvious when installed, and my ride cannot be properly repaired unless all of the modifications are known. Also, my Shaker ran perfectly until the alternator failed.

Last December the dealership installed a fourth alternator in my Shaker, before the upgraded alternators were available, and since then everything has gone downhill. (Note that since then, FCA has notified me that their responsibility has ended, and the upgraded alternator was installed.) Anyhow, the service writer told me that the alternator had damaged my PCM (or ECU if you prefer), and it needed to be replaced. Again FCA comes to the rescue, telling the dealership that the PCM will not be covered under warranty because I have a "tuner" installed. That is not true. What I have is a performance tuned engine to ensure it runs properly with its modifications, and it has done so until the alternator went out. Now the fun starts. I paid for the PCM and the labor charges. When my shaker was returned to me, the engine light was on, and the engine had the stock tune. I immediately informed service writer, who with his Mopar diagnostic tool, pulled the engine codes P0032 & P0058, he cleared them, and they immediately returned. Since I had been without my ride for almost 5 months, I took it home at that time, and the alternator problem has not yet recurred. Now the two codes are for the Heater Circuit High Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 1and Heater Circuit High Voltage Bank 2 Sensor. The dealership was unable to find anything wrong when I had them look at it. I next had a performance shop look at it, and they told me nothing was wrong with the either the wiring or the O2 sensors. Next, I purchased two new O2 sensors from the dealership and had the performance shop replace bank 1 sensor 1, and had them swap the bank 2 sensors. The problem remained the same, eliminating everything except the PCM. Next, I took it back to the dealership with this information. Do you thing they tried a new PCM in it? Of course not. Now I'm back to dealing with another clueless agent at FCA. Since I have a mechanical, belt driven super charger installed, that must be the cause of the problem, so I'm told they will not help and will close my case again, even though this is a repair I paid for. I'm about to phone FCA and if my case is closed, I will file a formal complaint against them with the state Attorney General. I'm done with their games.
 
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