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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Being without the car has also proven expensive as the plan for the system has “grown” considerably while waiting and reading up on what’s being done these days. I just keep buying equipment and stacking it up in the corner of the bedroom. You guys are costing me a lot of money!!! 🤣 But I’m glad I read all of this before I actually got anything installed.

I’ll have a Kicker KXA800.1 on the subs - but my plan for the front has changed.

I had planned on a Kicker 2 channel amp (100w X 2) powering a pair of 2-way Focal components.
Instead, I wound up buying 3 way Focal components - so I’ll have the Kicker 2 channel amp on the 6 1/2’s and Kicker 4 channel amp (50w X 4) on the 3” midrange and the tweeters - so each speaker gets its own channel. I’m gonna have a Rockford Fosgate DSR1 as my DSP and run active crossovers on all of the speakers rather than the passives the Focals come with. The shop I’m working with is going to do the wiring/tuning - set the crossover points/eq levels/time alignment stuff, etc. I’d like to learn how to do all of that but for now - he’s got all of the software/equipment/expertise so I’ll let him set it up and maybe I’ll tweak it later.
I also bought some basic Kicker 5 1/4 co-axials for the rear and they will just be powered by the rear deck power. I’ll probably have them faded out to basically nothing unless I have some rear seat passengers - which rarely happens.
I feel guilty for my part in costing you money, so allow me to make it up to you: I have a an old Sony 2 ch amp (45w x 2) you can have for those 5.25" speakers. You just tell me where to send it, and it's yours!
 
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I feel guilty for my part in costing you money, so allow me to make it up to you: I have a an old Sony 2 ch amp (45w x 2) you can have for those 5.25" speakers. You just tell me where to send it, and it's yours!
lol - there was a time when I would have taken you up on it! In the old days I wanted an amped speaker jammed in every possible location in the car playing as loud as possible.
Now it’s all about the front “sound stage” and any kind of “rear fill” is generally poo poo-ed on. Which admittedly makes a lot of sense in terms of re-creating a “live” music experience. The installer at the shop I’m working with suggested have no rear fill whatsoever. When I mentioned wanting to at least have some mids/highs for occasional rear passengers he talked about just putting the rear deck power on the stock rear speakers and just turning them on/up a bit (with the fader) only when I have people sitting back there. While that probably would have been fine I just couldn’t bring myself to do all of this and still have those paper stock speakers back there. Then again, I guess it seems a bit silly to spend $100 for a new pair of speakers that I’ll keep turned down 98 %of the time. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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I can see that. If one were to quit the other would then suddenly be basically playing with “double” the airspace - it’d probably start bottoming out hard. I never thought about it from that aspect. Hopefully I’d have an ear for things if something seems amiss before I would wreck the remaining sub.
I did a little more reading on this subject, and there are a couple points to add to my previous post on this:
  • The "if you smoke one sub, it won't drag the other down" reason for separate chambers is a valid reason, but there is a not-insignificant section of people who disregard that because they've never seen only one sub go up in smoke. The chances you'll burn only one up are slim, so there is something to that position for sure..
  • I did a quick search of Crutchfield's website for empty, multi-sub boxes for sale, intending to check on their internal design with respects to separate vs single chamber per sub. They all appear to have separate chambers, and sealed versus ported does not matter.
(that last one isn't meant to bolster the scientific side of the argument, as I'm sure companies that build boxes just build whatever their customers want at that time, and right now the separate chamber design is more popular.)

So in the end, it isn't going to really matter which approach is used. One way might make a difference in the rare event of a single sub failure, but it won't be catastrophic to the other one by any means.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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lol - there was a time when I would have taken you up on it! In the old days I wanted an amped speaker jammed in every possible location in the car playing as loud as possible.
Now it’s all about the front “sound stage” and any kind of “rear fill” is generally poo poo-ed on. Which admittedly makes a lot of sense in terms of re-creating a “live” music experience. The installer at the shop I’m working with suggested have no rear fill whatsoever. When I mentioned wanting to at least have some mids/highs for occasional rear passengers he talked about just putting the rear deck power on the stock rear speakers and just turning them on/up a bit (with the fader) only when I have people sitting back there. While that probably would have been fine I just couldn’t bring myself to do all of this and still have those paper stock speakers back there. Then again, I guess it seems a bit silly to spend $100 for a new pair of speakers that I’ll keep turned down 98 %of the time. 🤷🏻‍♂️
Well that's a shame, I was really hoping to keep this amp running in some fashion, if for no other reason than to see how long it will live. it was thrown in for free when I bought a sub and box from someone on CL a couple years ago, and after doing a search for its manual, I was able to figure out this amp was manufactured in the late 90s and hasn't been sold since about '99!

The manual is a trip, it's not even a PDF file that Sony produced for the web. It's a photocopy of the paper manual that came in the new box, converted to PDF and saved to the web for download. And that's from Sony's official website!!

This amp is so old, it was around back when dirt was invented!!

Anyway, I used it in my garage for a while, but now it just sits and collects dust. Kinda makes me sad to see such a trooper going to waste.
 

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I did a little more reading on this subject, and there are a couple points to add to my previous post on this:
  • The "if you smoke one sub, it won't drag the other down" reason for separate chambers is a valid reason, but there is a not-insignificant section of people who disregard that because they've never seen only one sub go up in smoke. The chances you'll burn only one up are slim, so there is something to that position for sure..
  • I did a quick search of Crutchfield's website for empty, multi-sub boxes for sale, intending to check on their internal design with respects to separate vs single chamber per sub. They all appear to have separate chambers, and sealed versus ported does not matter.
(that last one isn't meant to bolster the scientific side of the argument, as I'm sure companies that build boxes just build whatever their customers want at that time, and right now the separate chamber design is more popular.)

So in the end, it isn't going to really matter which approach is used. One way might make a difference in the rare event of a single sub failure, but it won't be catastrophic to the other one by any means.
Probably lots of schools of thought on it. Admittedly my “school of thought” stems from 30 year old techniques that were used at the shop where I used to frequent and do some quasi-contracting building some boxes for customers. They gave me the specs for the boxes and I just built them. They usually (but not always) called for a shared airspace. But that was 30 years ago and just one shop’s opinion. We didn’t have any internet so you just went with what you heard from any “experts” you came in contact with. Obviously plenty of other things have changed in car audio over the years - I’m sure there are lots of new thoughts on box design as well. This should suffice for what I’m after though. I still think perhaps the 2 10’s may be overkill for what I want. I could save some trunk space (and likely still get the sound I want) with a single 12. Knowing me I’ll try 4-5 different configurations before I’m happy.
 

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I know a lot of "audiophiles" absolutely hate "rear fill", but I simply cannot live without rear speaekrs. :) I tried going without any rear speakers for months and I just did not like it. I get such a "fuller" sound by utilizing the rear speakers. Even though they are attenuated quite a bit and only play a subset of the frequencies, they still add that "something" that is just missing without them. Everything just sounds so much "fuller" and "powerful" with the rear speakers enabled. Vocals and such still come from the windshield even with them (since they are attenuated).

To each their own, but I for one need my rear speakers. :)
 

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I know a lot of "audiophiles" absolutely hate "rear fill", but I simply cannot live without rear speaekrs. :) I tried going without any rear speakers for months and I just did not like it. I get such a "fuller" sound by utilizing the rear speakers. Even though they are attenuated quite a bit and only play a subset of the frequencies, they still add that "something" that is just missing without them. Everything just sounds so much "fuller" and "powerful" with the rear speakers enabled. Vocals and such still come from the windshield even with them (since they are attenuated).

To each their own, but I for one need my rear speakers. :)
I know where you are coming from - that was always my thought too. I’m just re-entering the game - old dog trying to learn the new tricks - and I’ll see what I think of it all. I may end up hitting Nuke up for that amp!
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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I know where you are coming from - that was always my thought too. I’m just re-entering the game - old dog trying to learn the new tricks - and I’ll see what I think of it all. I may end up hitting Nuke up for that amp!
999395
 

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Quick question for you guys.

I think I remember reading that some year model Challengers with some stereo options had an 8” sub in the rear deck. My question: do all Challengers have the hole in the deck/metal where there sub would/could have been?

I would go out and look at my car BUT - it’s still in the shop. Giving some thought to a ported box with the port playing up through that hole - if it exists.
 

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Quick question for you guys.

I think I remember reading that some year model Challengers with some stereo options had an 8” sub in the rear deck. My question: do all Challengers have the hole in the deck/metal where there sub would/could have been?

I would go out and look at my car BUT - it’s still in the shop. Giving some thought to a ported box with the port playing up through that hole - if it exists.
Yes, the hole is there on all of them. It is covered with a piece of aluminum-foil-type deadener if you don't have the sub, which can be easily removed.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Quick question for you guys.

I think I remember reading that some year model Challengers with some stereo options had an 8” sub in the rear deck. My question: do all Challengers have the hole in the deck/metal where there sub would/could have been?

I would go out and look at my car BUT - it’s still in the shop. Giving some thought to a ported box with the port playing up through that hole - if it exists.
Every Challenger and Charger I have ever seen had that hole in the center of the rear deck. If nothing came in it, it will be covered over by a aluminum foil/rubberized cover that can be peeled off or cut through if you wish
 
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I know a lot of "audiophiles" absolutely hate "rear fill", but I simply cannot live without rear speaekrs. :) I tried going without any rear speakers for months and I just did not like it. I get such a "fuller" sound by utilizing the rear speakers. Even though they are attenuated quite a bit and only play a subset of the frequencies, they still add that "something" that is just missing without them. Everything just sounds so much "fuller" and "powerful" with the rear speakers enabled. Vocals and such still come from the windshield even with them (since they are attenuated).

To each their own, but I for one need my rear speakers. :)
Just sitting here thinking 🤔 - so do you have your rear channels also run through your DSP and time-aligned to the drivers position, etc? Does it make the tuning tricky lining up the rear with the front?
 

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Just sitting here thinking - so do you have your rear channels also run through your DSP and time-aligned to the drivers position, etc? Does it make the tuning tricky lining up the rear with the front?
Yes, I have my rear channels running through my DSP (Helix DSP.3) and amp (JL Audio XD600/6V2). They are time-aligned to the drivers position based on distance alone. I have experimented with the rear speakers quite a bit. I've tried without them at all, with them setup as true "differential rear-fill", with them setup as regular stereo rear speakers time-aligned by distance + some extra delay and finally, I've tried them as regular stereo rear speakers time-aligned by distance only, which is why I've found works best for me.

What I do now is I basically measure and tune my front stage only (door, dash and sub) to my house curve - and then I simply turn on the rear speakers to give me that little extra "something" that I just can't go without - regardless of what it does to the measurements (I don't even take measurements with the rear speakers enabled). I do EQ my rear speakers to my house curve as well though.

I don't know if it's simply because I'm so used to rear speakers since I've been using them my entire life or what, but I just can't go without them - the system just sounds so "blah" without them, regardless of how well it's tuned - whereas with the rear speakers, the sound is just so much "fuller" and more "natural" to me. Since they aren't as loud as the front stage speakers, they don't pull the front stage back significantly.

Keep in mind that before I got into this whole DSP/tuning thing, I would actually make my rear speakers louder than the front speakers - it's just the way I've always adjusted my car stereos my whole life. Staging wasn't ever a concern to me until I installed and setup my current system with a full DSP - so I'm sure that all plays into why I prefer having some rear speakers. :) So I'm not a typical car audio "SQ" (Sound Quality) guy by definition. I like the system to sound good to me, not what would score well in a SQ competition or something like that.

However, my thoughts on rear speakers are very different now than what they used to be, since I now do like the front speakers to be the main "focus", but I do find that rear speakers are still very important to the overall sound.
 

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... So I'm not a typical car audio "SQ" (Sound Quality) guy by definition. I like the system to sound good to me, not what would score well in a SQ competition or something like that.
I think that’s the direction I’m headed. As far as hearing rear speakers - when I first started driving “car stereo” meant just having two 6x9’s in the rear deck. “Quality” car stereo meant GOOD 6x9’s in the rear deck (Jensen Tri-axials!). Nobody had any front speakers. lol So I’m used to having music behind me as well.

I like the idea of all of the control that a DSP allows and I’m looking forward to tweaking and tuning once it’s all in (and I learn it all) - but like you, I think I’m looking for “Quality Sound” vs perhaps the proper “SQ” protocol. I expect to prefer at least SOME some rear fill (wound up with 6.5” co-axials). I’m not gonna buy some wildly expensive esoteric A/B amp just because the distortion level is .05% better. And I’ll likely prefer a tad more “bump” than the typical SQ guy (though it will still need to be “musical” and appropriate for the mid/highs I’ve got going). I think I’ve outgrown the max punch “take your breath away” teeth rattling bass (except perhaps when “Thunderstruck” comes across the playlist 😁).

Looking forward to it. Sucks that my car vanished to the shop just as I got started. For now just buying stuff and watching it gather dust on the bedroom floor. Still waiting for 1 amp to get here - but I’ll likely have it before I have my car back.

999583


I like the looks of the Focal 3 ways.

999584
 

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The final component I’ve been waiting on - the Kicker KXA400.4 4 channel amp to run the 3 1/2’s and tweeters is still back ordered. So I cancelled the order and bought a Rockford Fosgate T400 instead. It has a bit more power (60x4 vs 50x4), it’s an A/B amp so theoretically has less distortion in the mids/highs (not that I expect to be able to hear the difference), and I’m just fan of the brand. I was a RF fanatic 25-30 years ago and that’s all I ever messed with - so it’ll be nice to have at least one RF amp in the system as homage to the 22 year old me.

Oh wait - there is still one remaining component missing....my car. But at least the dealership said my new engine has finally shipped so maybe things are getting closer.

Ready to start putting it all together.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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The final component I’ve been waiting on - the Kicker KXA400.4 4 channel amp to run the 3 1/2’s and tweeters is still back ordered. So I cancelled the order and bought a Rockford Fosgate T400 instead. It has a bit more power (60x4 vs 50x4), it’s an A/B amp so theoretically has less distortion in the mids/highs (not that I expect to be able to hear the difference), and I’m just fan of the brand. I was a RF fanatic 25-30 years ago and that’s all I ever messed with - so it’ll be nice to have at least one RF amp in the system as homage to the 22 year old me.

Oh wait - there is still one remaining component missing....my car. But at least the dealership said my new engine has finally shipped so maybe things are getting closer.

Ready to start putting it all together.
IIRC you are running the stock head-unit with the upgraded speakers and amps, correct?

My thought is that you will need to really spend some time tweaking everything to keep the 3.5" and tweeters from overpowering the rest of the system. Using that amp for those speakers alone means you won't have normal fading functionality without some fancy wiring, and even with normal fading ability, you would need to match the front channels pretty danged close to get them to play nice together when you crank up the volume (since they are powered by different amps).

The addition of a DSP could mitigate all that obviously, but it seems like I remember you saying you weren't adding on of those yet...
 

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The addition of a DSP could mitigate all that obviously, but it seems like I remember you saying you weren't adding on of those yet...
Well sitting around bored waiting to get my car back hasn’t been good as I’ve kept buying more stereo stuff.

So yeah, I did go ahead and buy a DSP - I’ll be using a Rockford DSR1 for that. Replacing the stock head unit with a Sony XAV1000. The Rockford Fosgate T400 amp (4x60) will be powering the 3.5’s and tweeters and a Kicker 400.2 (2x100) will be powering the 6.5’s of the component speakers. And of course the Kicker 800.1 on the subs. All run through the DSP.

Wound up with Kicker 6.5” co-axials for the rear - which will be powered off the rear channel deck power from the Sony HU - so I’ll be able to fade them up/down as necessary.
 
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