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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am the first to admit that I am the most inexperienced drag racer that ever lived. My feeling was that I had a slow car and maybe still is the case. My tendency to stomp and go has been disastrous for ET. I installed a K&N typhoon intake on my SRT8 after 2 weeks of off the showroom floor and before any track runs. It has the aluminum intake tube. My first runs at the drag strip were embarrassing in times. I was stomp and go with massive wheel spin and 13+ ET's. But what was more concerning was the trap times . In temps right around 50 degrees I was trapping 108 at the very best with 103 at the worst with 105 the average after 8 runs. My coolant temperature was sitting at 228 degrees at some points. I took steps all at once that improved it dramatically. I installed a catch can, I installed a 180 thermostat, and I bought a Diablo trinity running 93 octane and a Hemifever custom tune which eliminated a lot of torque management. After logging many runs and tweeking I came to a seat of the pants feel that it was sooo much more powerful. All of the changes brought my trap speed at the track from an average of 105 to a two run speed of 112.98. Now at the same DA that I ran a maximum of 108 that is quit an improvement. But I have at least two things I changed. I never ran the quarter mile with the stock intake filter. I never noticed an increase in power when I changed to the K&N CAI typhoon if not worse than stock. Now that I tweeked and retweeked the tune with data logging I kept referring back to many many posts on this forum that the stock air box with a K&N drop in filter is as good as most CAI revisions. So, being more naïve than most with more money to spare than some I bought a K&N drop in filter and reinstalled the stock airbox with the 40$ K&N filter. It would not run the aggressive Diablo tweeked Hemifever tune worth a dam. It bogged, it floundered, it did 107 max at the track. So my analysis is that a short tube CAI intake may not add any horse power with a stock tune. I have to say even with the same enhanced tune, the catch can and the 180 thermostat the stock CAI with a K&N drop in is no match for the Typhoon with a tune. It advertises 22+ HP but I don't believe it without tuning.
That brings me to another tweek that I have yet to prove at the track. I do believe that the aluminum tube does absorb heat from the engine compartment. I can feel it when I touch it and ouch it's hot. While sitting in line idling it gets hot and heat soak is a factor. Although through research it cools so much quicker (within 30 seconds) where as the stock plastic takes up to 3 minutes it's not enough to matter in the quarter mile (maybe the last 200 foot). But I don't know if it's the smooth tube flow, the increased air flow or the combination that makes it able to withstand more timing and making for increased HP but whichever it is it is still superior than stock box and just a K&N drop in. My next test will be with an insulation (radiant barrier) over the aluminum tube to see if it can make a difference. I know there are carbon fiber tubes and different brand CAI's but I have what I have and I'd spit blood before I'd buy a carbon fiber from the vendor that I know who has one. Bottom line : All I can say is those who feel that a stock air box with a K&N drop-in is the same as a CAI when a tune is involved may want to experiment a little bit.
 

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What are your 60 foots at the drag strip?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
My 60 foots are not good. That goes with me trying many different techniques with learning how to drag race this car. Spinning is an issue and I don't know how to launch. But in trying many different ways my latest way is to just take off briskly like I would from a signal light and after about 20 feet nail it. That put me in the high 12's. But whether I got a wild spinning launch or a fairly good launch (for me) my trap speed was more consistent except after severe heat soak before installation of the 180 thermostat which dropped me to 103 trap speed. As an example of the 1/8 and 1/4 speeds I'll post some slips from two different days to show the speeds before the tune and 180 thermostat but with the K&N. Then my latest with the tune and thermostat. 60 foots show I need practice but MPH shows it's making lots more power.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Your [email protected] are right where the car should be with a 2.1 60 foot IMO.
Thanks EricG. And I agree that is about right. But what I was saying is regardless of the ET the speeds before I tuned for increased airflow and kept things cool with the 180 thermostat my 1/8 speed was pretty consistent around 84 MPH and 1/4 trap speed around 105, 106, 107 or so. Even after gaining lots of speed with the mods, switching back to the stock airbox with a K&N drop in decreased the speed once again. The ET doesn't matter at this point because of a learning curve for me but the MPH does show more potential with the mods. Here is an example of some of my better 60 foots and but not a comparison with the tune because it was a stock tune but shows less speed with the drop in than my best of 108 with the Typhoon and stock tune.
 

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Yeah sorry I didn't have time to elaborate earlier, but one thought is if you are making changes right before you go to the track, perhaps the car's adaptives are not being given enough time to re-learn the airflow? The effect of the adaptives is greatly reduced with a Diablo tune from what I understand and experienced on my old SRT8, but they are not gone all together.

There are other variables like density altitude, but if you have done all this over a fairly recent time it should not have fluctuated that much.

You are gathering lots of data right now which is good, just tough to draw some definite conclusions off of it. I guess that gives you more reasons to head to the track! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Track time is fun and will help for sure. You know when I first decided to try the K&N drop-in a while back it wasn't because I wanted to improve anything at the track but I kinda like the stock look and being a somewhat stealthy type of guy I really like the quieter sound. From what I had read the drop-in seemed to be the same by so many's opinion so I swapped back and forth a little getting a feel. Before the 93 tune and tweeks (with tune in stock mode with fan adjustments) I didn't realize any difference but after the 93 tune swapping to stock box made it bog and felt like the tach was moving in slow motion from 4.5K to 6K. I know my tests so far are not very scientific for sure but seat of the pants feel and trap times tell me my seat of the pants is pretty sensitive LOL Thanks my friend for your inputs.
 

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The SRTs have a good air box from the factory- not pretty, but effective. You only get performance increases with a CAI when you use a tune.

I don't think that the hot aluminum intake tube substantially heats the intake air because it is flowing at such a high velocity. Basically, the air doesn't have enough time to heat up while rapidly flowing through the tube.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yeah Cuda, I am hoping you are right about the aluminum tube. At least without insulation it looks a little better. Right now I think my car is fast enough. I really don't intend on making it a drag car I just want to have fun and get better with practice. I mean even I can beat a few cars out there at the track. Hey, sometimes I think I lull them to sleep like I did this Camaro in this Youtube vid of me before the 93 tune.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrQpOCKMsrE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
The SRTs have a good air box from the factory- not pretty but effective. You only get performance increases with a CAI when you use a tune.
You know, it's been a couple of days since I posted this. It seems odd that there are no more responses as I've watched questions on CAI posts reach several pages repeating the famous reply of " They are only for sound and looks". The reason I posted my findings was not to create controversy, not to inject scientific evidence, or sell anyone on an after market CAI. It was just to show through my eyes and experiences that the stock SRT intake, although it maybe pretty good, was just not the same for power with a tuner as an aftermarket CAI ...especially the K&N Cyclone that I bought by random choice. So yes, I agree the good air box that the SRT's have is good, but not as good as it gets.
I have been reading and following the Challenger forums for a little less than a year. So I am a rookie. But I have been on various forums, especially motorcycle forums ,since 1996. I was a moderator on one of the now biggest Harley forums that now has over twenty thousand members. I was member 40 on that forum. For years the biggest controversy in posts was using dino oil vs. synthetic oil. For ten years it was 99% consensus that synthetic oil was not good for Harleys. Everyone from old school riders to mechanics at the dealerships were adamant on the theory that synthetic oil was too slick and would cause the bearings to "skate" creating flat spots on the bearings. From my logical perspective it seemed like if the slickness caused the bearings to slide instead of roll it would be almost no friction at all and how can you get better frictionless lubrication than that? So I used synthetic in all of my Harleys. It wasn't until Harley came out with their own synthetic oil (at twice the price) that they recommended synthetic oil not only in the crankcase but in the transmission and primary case as well and then the old wives tales disappeared from the forums. Now after reading many if not hundreds of members' posts on numerous Challenger forums I was sold on the fact that the 2013 SRT or earlier stock air boxes were about as good as it gets and substantiated from many members and moderators and people in the know. Yeah, I bought it and many others did too evidently because it is mirrored over and over and over without any supporting evidence but mostly repeating what was posted over and over sounding like a poll parrot. I am not here to create controversy. Most of my business here is for learning and I thank this forum for teaching me much. But I have evidence, at least for me, that the stock air box even with a drop in K&N filter can't hold a candle to what can be tuned into an aftermarket CAI. My evidence isn't totally scientific or conclusive but it is such a drastic improvement that a stock air box with drop in (as good as it might be) can't hold a candle to it. I'm not posting this for glory, for some international global break through Nobel prize, for medals, honors, ribbons, tokens, badges, or recognition. But the way I see it these forums are to help fellow members. Especially those new to the Challenger forums... members who ask the question of whether the after market CAIs can help. Well, without a tune I have to agree with the masses that no, it don't give much of a seat of the pants improvement or a timed speed evidence of power... mostly just sound and looks. But with a tune it's miles ahead of what can be achieved with the stock box even with a drop in. Take it for what it may be but here I offer you my personal opinion and experiences which seems to differ from the masses. Take it or leave it...experiment and report, but please share what you have personally learned through experience.

If ever any of you guys are in town let me know....we'll kick back over a couple of suds and discuss the odysseys of the world wide web super information highway ;)
 

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Change the thread's title and more might read. Change it to something like comparison after blah blah. I have been skipping reading it cause I thought it was another thread from someone asking if he should buy a CAI and which one to get.

Javier
 

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Fifthgear - I love the real world, personal gain or losses posts like your - thanks!

What made you pick the Typhoon CAI? Just curious. I did a google search it it appears that the Typhoon doesn't really pull cold air like the factory setup, so you would think it would already have a disadvantage. But after reading tons of posts on "CAIs", the consensus seems to be that its the cone shaped filter that is where the breathing advantage is coming from.

I have an R/T and I haven't yet seen where an aftermarket CAI will give the gains close to what you have seen over the stock setup (with a drop in). I wonder if the 392 is maxing out the the capacity of the factory setup, more specifically the filter, whereas the 5.7 is not. And since its maxing it out in stock tune, adding any mods almost requires an aftermarket CAI - or more specifically, the added cfm of a cone filter.

Thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Fifthgear - I love the real world, personal gain or losses posts like your - thanks!

What made you pick the Typhoon CAI? Just curious. I did a google search it it appears that the Typhoon doesn't really pull cold air like the factory setup, so you would think it would already have a disadvantage. But after reading tons of posts on "CAIs", the consensus seems to be that its the cone shaped filter that is where the breathing advantage is coming from.

I have an R/T and I haven't yet seen where an aftermarket CAI will give the gains close to what you have seen over the stock setup (with a drop in). I wonder if the 392 is maxing out the the capacity of the factory setup, more specifically the filter, whereas the 5.7 is not. And since its maxing it out in stock tune, adding any mods almost requires an aftermarket CAI - or more specifically, the added cfm of a cone filter.

Thoughts?
Crush, I chose the K&N because of my good experiences over the years with K&N in many vehicles including motorcycles. I chose the Typhoon because I liked the look of the shiny polished tube. They do make the same style with a plastic looking black tube but strangely enough from their hype advertising they showed it to add a HP or two less on their site. hmm

As far as my thoughts, I have a lot of them...just not sure what to make of all of them ahaha. Like I said I was probably the most surprised/shocked out of all of us from the results. My reasoning was really in line with most everyone else's here that I have come across....that the stock box was good, the closed box would keep more hot underhood air out, the stock or K&N drop in would breath good enough or the same. So my findings found by accident were based on that....if my highly aggressive tune tweeked to the max for my K&N Typhoon made my car much more powerful then the stock box if it breathed the same would certainly see little to no change if I just decided to swap it back. Some parts of reasoning even told me that it might be even better because of the heat isolation and direct connect to the bottom under-fender air supply pull hole. And of course that hot hot tube thing. Man was I shocked after a swap out. I had just made a couple of country road launches practicing for the track runs coming the next day. So when I swapped back and minutes later tried the launches again...I couldn't believe it. It was like I was driving my wife's explorer or something. It was horrible!
Do I think I could retune and smooth that out with the trinity? Well, yeah I think so. The first thing I'd do is go back to square one with the added fuel and timing and start a data log...log some more..tweek here and there as needed. But I know what I'd end up with...less air( I suppose), less fuel, less timing and less HP. So, I was kinda hoping that some of you guys with more equipment, more experience, more time, and more money could do some of the experimenting and give us all some additional experiences and thoughts in this sharing enviroment.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Change the thread's title and more might read. Change it to something like comparison after blah blah. I have been skipping reading it cause I thought it was another thread from someone asking if he should buy a CAI and which one to get.

Javier
Javier, I really was never happy with the title that I quickly slapped on this thread myself. It doesn't make much sense in the short form does it? LOL . No use changing it now though. Thanks for the reply :)

I just noticed something in one of my earlier posts...I called my Typhoon a Cyclone for some reason. hmmm, must have been getting late or something.
 

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I am the first to admit that I am the most inexperienced drag racer that ever lived. My feeling was that I had a slow car and maybe still is the case. My tendency to stomp and go has been disastrous for ET. I installed a K&N typhoon intake on my SRT8 after 2 weeks of off the showroom floor and before any track runs. It has the aluminum intake tube. My first runs at the drag strip were embarrassing in times. I was stomp and go with massive wheel spin and 13+ ET's. But what was more concerning was the trap times . In temps right around 50 degrees I was trapping 108 at the very best with 103 at the worst with 105 the average after 8 runs. My coolant temperature was sitting at 228 degrees at some points. I took steps all at once that improved it dramatically. I installed a catch can, I installed a 180 thermostat, and I bought a Diablo trinity running 93 octane and a Hemifever custom tune which eliminated a lot of torque management. After logging many runs and tweeking I came to a seat of the pants feel that it was sooo much more powerful. All of the changes brought my trap speed at the track from an average of 105 to a two run speed of 112.98. Now at the same DA that I ran a maximum of 108 that is quit an improvement. But I have at least two things I changed. I never ran the quarter mile with the stock intake filter. I never noticed an increase in power when I changed to the K&N CAI typhoon if not worse than stock. Now that I tweeked and retweeked the tune with data logging I kept referring back to many many posts on this forum that the stock air box with a K&N drop in filter is as good as most CAI revisions. So, being more naïve than most with more money to spare than some I bought a K&N drop in filter and reinstalled the stock airbox with the 40$ K&N filter. It would not run the aggressive Diablo tweeked Hemifever tune worth a dam. It bogged, it floundered, it did 107 max at the track. So my analysis is that a short tube CAI intake may not add any horse power with a stock tune. I have to say even with the same enhanced tune, the catch can and the 180 thermostat the stock CAI with a K&N drop in is no match for the Typhoon with a tune. It advertises 22+ HP but I don't believe it without tuning.
That brings me to another tweek that I have yet to prove at the track. I do believe that the aluminum tube does absorb heat from the engine compartment. I can feel it when I touch it and ouch it's hot. While sitting in line idling it gets hot and heat soak is a factor. Although through research it cools so much quicker (within 30 seconds) where as the stock plastic takes up to 3 minutes it's not enough to matter in the quarter mile (maybe the last 200 foot). But I don't know if it's the smooth tube flow, the increased air flow or the combination that makes it able to withstand more timing and making for increased HP but whichever it is it is still superior than stock box and just a K&N drop in. My next test will be with an insulation (radiant barrier) over the aluminum tube to see if it can make a difference. I know there are carbon fiber tubes and different brand CAI's but I have what I have and I'd spit blood before I'd buy a carbon fiber from the vendor that I know who has one. Bottom line : All I can say is those who feel that a stock air box with a K&N drop-in is the same as a CAI when a tune is involved may want to experiment a little bit.
I believe the stock air box and filter are as good as any aftermarket CAI. Unless you changed the CAI and put the drop in K&N in the same day at the track there is no way with a few runs one time you can say the CAI was better. Iam running 112 trap speed with a12.50 1/4 mile time with every thing stock. So on the 392 the stock intake manifold and the air box are as good as any and buying an after market one is a waste of money
 

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Discussion Starter #16
So on the 392 the stock intake manifold and the air box are as good as any and buying an after market one is a waste of money
Well, yeah......that's what I've been hearing. I was sorta counting on you to experiment with tunning and help prove the Typhoon would increase speed at the track. I guess I can take this as a definite no?

BTW, that is a great trap speed stock that you got there. I wish mine would do that with the stock off the showroom 91 tune. Just think what it would do now with the 93!!

Thanks for the reply brandy16.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Wow your stock 392 was running almost exactly what my stock RT goes?
It was slow for sure, consistently slow. In my first post I stated that I may have just gotten a slow car. When I see how much my trap speed has increased I am really happy with it now. The problem though is it's just about the same trap speed as most SRT's stock or slightly slower. That's why I am wondering if those running around my new trap speed with a stock air box or K&N slide in would increase their trap speed even more with the few things I've done. Thanks for the reply.
 

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It was slow for sure, consistently slow. In my first post I stated that I may have just gotten a slow car. When I see how much my trap speed has increased I am really happy with it now. The problem though is it's just about the same trap speed as most SRT's stock or slightly slower. That's why I am wondering if those running around my new trap speed with a stock air box or K&N slide in would increase their trap speed even more with the few things I've done. Thanks for the reply.
Id put the stock air box back in.
 
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