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Dear Bohica:
I just bought the Diabolo Predator, installed the 93-octane program, and I did notice some performance increase in the same power band/curve from the original setting. But I was disappointed that the response didn't increase in the low-end/take-off area as I'd hoped. The car (a 2010 R/T with the factory Mopar Cold-Air kit) seems sluggish from say, 20-35m.p.h., but when you hit about 40 it jumps to life and you feel the power/acceleration of the new tune. Is this just the 3.06:1 rear-end gears showing their nature, or is it possible to make modifications/changes to the car's program using one of the Diabolo's other tunes---or do I have to take it to an authorized Diablolo speed shop to do a"dyno" tune?
 

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Dear Bohica:
I just bought the Diabolo Predator, installed the 93-octane program, and I did notice some performance increase in the same power band/curve from the original setting. But I was disappointed that the response didn't increase in the low-end/take-off area as I'd hoped. The car (a 2010 R/T with the factory Mopar Cold-Air kit) seems sluggish from say, 20-35m.p.h., but when you hit about 40 it jumps to life and you feel the power/acceleration of the new tune. Is this just the 3.06:1 rear-end gears showing their nature, or is it possible to make modifications/changes to the car's program using one of the Diabolo's other tunes---or do I have to take it to an authorized Diablolo speed shop to do a"dyno" tune?
The 'canned' tunes are a good start and give Diablosport Predator customers an opportunity to use the device with some results immediately. These tunes are generic for your vehicle.

The next step up is to find and work with a CMR tuner. At this step you'll provide the tuner with your stock tune and he will customize a tune for your specific 'setup' accounting for any modifications made and your desired results (ie, more power, faster throttle response, less torque mgmt etc). This is a good step for lightly modified vehicles (ie, bolt-ons). The usual process is to datalog specific PIDs (parameter IDs) while driving in various conditions.

From there, the next step is a 'dyno' tune with a CMR tuner. Simply strap your vehicle on a dyno and monitor PIDs and make adjustments.

In my experience, a CMR tune is a very good step to take if you want to maximize the benefits of the Predator. Prices vary from $150 - $250 and at times vendors have run 'specials' on tunes for less that $100.

I spent time taking with various members of my forum and others at LXF to decide who to work with. Fortunately for me, there's a local tuner who's well respected and very competent. I've been very happy with my CMR tune -- the performance improvement and change in driving characteristics is well worth the $ spent.

Good luck!
 

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Dear Bohica:
I just bought the Diabolo Predator, installed the 93-octane program, and I did notice some performance increase in the same power band/curve from the original setting. But I was disappointed that the response didn't increase in the low-end/take-off area as I'd hoped. The car (a 2010 R/T with the factory Mopar Cold-Air kit) seems sluggish from say, 20-35m.p.h., but when you hit about 40 it jumps to life and you feel the power/acceleration of the new tune. Is this just the 3.06:1 rear-end gears showing their nature, or is it possible to make modifications/changes to the car's program using one of the Diabolo's other tunes---or do I have to take it to an authorized Diablolo speed shop to do a"dyno" tune?
that is exactly how my Ram was before I had a B&G custom tune loaded onto my PCM. Once the tune was loaded and the torque management was removed, it would actuallly launch rather than lerch off the line. lol
And I could roast the tires at will rather than chirp.

I assumed the DS would completely remove TM, but I guess not.

Did you to a before & after dyno pull to see what was gained and where at?
 

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Thanks, sir, for the response. I'll check with the local speed shop I've done business with and have confidence with (Reed Speed in Mesquite,TX) to get a custom tune;maybe they'll have a special going. Thanks again.
 

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I was asked by a VERY VERY reputable Ford/GM/Dodge performance shop that does a TON of forced induction to check out this conversation because one of their Dodge customers is becoming concerned and they're at a loss as to how to deal with it because of all the inaccurate ideas floating around the thread. After reading the whole thing for over an hour, this conversation is ridiculous. EVERYONE, just listen to what Mike @ DiabloSport says. He is NOT trying to scam anyone nor is he trying to lie to sell more Predators. He's just trying to clarify all concerns (and some cRaZy claims). So far, everything Mike has said has been right on the money. Small mistakes in an instruction booklet (or whatever) have NOTHING to do with the knowledge of the PCM's strategy. He's been trusted as the public representative of Diablosport to give accurate technical information to customers.

There are people that work at Diablosport that used to work for the OEMs. You HAVE to trust what they are saying is true. In a lot of ways they are going to know a lot more about PCM strategy, development, and calibration than even the "Mopar Engineers" that have been here before. The Mopar engineers MOST-LIKELY are not PCM developers or OEM calibrators. You have to remember, there are a LOT of different types of engineers that work on cars.

As for "adaptives," I noticed a lot of people are grouping all the different types into one. Each type of "adaptive" works differently. Here are a couple examples...

Fuel Adaptives: These are alterations to your VE table in order to maintain the TARGET A/F during CLOSED-LOOP operation (getting post-combustion oxygen content info from the car's right & left bank o2 sensors). Notice I said "target." You CAN in fact change the target A/F ratio during closed-loop operation but 99.9% of all people should not be touching this value. For anyone running standard gasoline (87oct-110oct) you're almost ALWAYS going to want an Air-Fuel ratio of 14.7:1 unless you're pushing the throttle near WOT. It is the MOST EFFICIENT ("A stoichiometric amount or stoichiometric ratio of a reagent is that where, assuming 100% yield, all reagent is consumed, no residues remain, but there is no shortfall of reagent either. When the yield is below 100%, a residue remains."). In other words, with gasoline, this ratio provides the most complete combustion which means no leftover unburnt fuel and no leftover unused oxygen molecules. This is pretty much impossible but we aim for something very close. The fuel adaptives are generally NOT USED during OPEN-LOOP Operation. The ONLY exception is if you managed to get long-term trims in the specific VE cell (RPM/PRatio). This can be done if you manage to get the car engine operating in that specific cell for an extended period of time while the engine is operating in closed-loop. The switch to OL is done in different ways depending on how the PCM strategy was developed. With current Chrysler PCM strategy, it is determined by a configurable throttle voltage. To actually do things the proper way, the tuner should set the OL Switch point EXTREMELY high, run the vehicle completely in Closed-loop, and adjust the VE table. ONLY AFTER this is completed, should the Open Loop Enrichment valvues and CL->OL switchpoint be messed with. This ensures a fully accurate VE table. Keep in mind that this calibration method should be used with the current Narrowband o2 sensors. Once these are switched to wide-band sensors as some manufacturers are now doing, WOT fueling (Power Enrichment) can be set with "target" values and so-called "adaptives" can be used in WOT (richer) conditions. In retrospect, you WANT the PCM to adapt/learn this. If your tune is not PERFECT and you keep resetting your PCM by reprogramming or whatever, you're going to end up hurting the engine and emissions.

Spark advance adaptives: Depending on a specific RPM & MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) value, the PCM can reduce spark advance if it detects knock (a WHOLE other conversation). As long as knock sensors are calibrated correctly, the spark advance adaptives will NOT TAKE AWAY OR REDUCE POWER OVER TIME... ONLY if there is harmful ignition. Again, if knock sensors are calibrated correctly, instead of complaining about a lack of power over time, you should be kissing Chrysler's ass since they just saved your engine from damage.

Driving habit adaptives: Yes, the car will "learn" how you drive to SOME extent. This is used mostly for shift points. However, if you push the throttle all the way to WOT, the car is going to go WOT. You're not going to lose any power from this. If you go WOT you'll notice that if you slow down quick, the car downshifts much sooner. This is what these adaptives do. And keep in mind it does not take hours of driving to change these "adaptives". It changes within a couple seconds of how you're driving. It's not even really an "adaptive." It just detects if you're being agressive and changes the shift points and such temporarily.

Hmmmm, what else... Oh yeah, don't worry about this Neural Network contraversy. A Predator tune or a custom tune will work FINE! It will not work its way back to a stock tune... it will try work its way to the target values that the TUNER sets! The only exception to this is if the engine sensors determine the engine is running sub-optimally. And get this, if the tuner WANTS the engine to run sub-optimally, he/she can even set what the sensors see as sub-optimal. I've done literally hundreds of forced induction late-model chrysler cars and a whole bunch of Forced Induction 09 & 10 R/T models with no problems. The only thing that changes over time is how ACCURATE/OPTIMAL the fueling/spark is. If your tune is done correctly, there will be VERY VERY LITTLE OR NO CHANGES over time!
 

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Sir,
NoI didn't do and before and after dyno pull. I just assumed the Diabolo pre-loaded tunes would cure the condition,and it didn't. I'm going take it to a good speed shop for a custom program/load.
 

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I have had the Predator with a few mods for about a year on a 09 R/T 6spd. It only has 2000 miles and I have not been able run the 1/4 mile faster than 13.6 @ 104.xx since I ran it stock. I added Exhaust, CIA and car ran the same times. I then bought a predator and 180 thermo. Still no change. My questions to Mike are does the PCM have a 2500 mile break-in limit before it opens up like I have heard about? If it does wouldn't the predator over ride it? Why no increase in 1/4 runs and please don't say driver? If the car is limited until a particular mile range 2500 or whatever then fine, I'll rack up the miles and keep trying. Thanks
 

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I have had the Predator with a few mods for about a year on a 09 R/T 6spd. It only has 2000 miles and I have not been able run the 1/4 mile faster than 13.6 @ 104.xx since I ran it stock. I added Exhaust, CIA and car ran the same times. I then bought a predator and 180 thermo. Still no change. My questions to Mike are does the PCM have a 2500 mile break-in limit before it opens up like I have heard about? If it does wouldn't the predator over ride it? Why no increase in 1/4 runs and please don't say driver? If the car is limited until a particular mile range 2500 or whatever then fine, I'll rack up the miles and keep trying. Thanks
ET improvements with a manual trans can be tough to come by, are you seeing any trap speed improvement?
Thats where the indicator of power comes from, not ET...

There is no 2500 mile break in, I have seen cars with less than 500 miles on them pick up tons of power on the dyno.

In your case, I would have to advise that you do some logging for KR.
 

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Had played with the r23 canned tunes, no real improvement and no skip-shift removal. Got a custom tune from DCX, no real improvment, but did get skip-shift removed. Played with the "new" r23b, see results for r23.
 

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If you're questioning a predator tuner I can tell you this much, if your car has been in for regular service and they re-flashed it at the dealer with the updated flash, your car will run slow as hell. My et dropped .5 - .6 tenths of a second with the factory reflash. I bought a predator suspecting this was my problem, installed the 91 octane tune and ran a new best my next time out to the track. I made up .6 - .7 of what I was running before. It may only be a tenth from what I was running originally, but it was a life saver in getting away from that crappy dealer flash. If you've had it done I suggest getting a predator.
 

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Mike, thanks for your quick response. Most consistent of my 20+ runs has been my trap speeds. It took a good 10+ run to figure out the launch process with the crappy RSA tires. Stock speed 104.4 and same for all additional mods including predator. Don’t get me wrong, but I do think the Mods I have made give the car a much better “Seat in the pants” feel. I thought I would pick up at least .3 to .5 secs and maybe 3 to 5 mph at trap. I know my way around a drag strip with a manual. I have been racing for almost 30 years and 90% of my cars have been manuals.
Do you think I am asking too much (.5 secs and 5 mph) from these mods? I really don’t know.

Please explain “In your case, I would have to advise that you do some logging for KR”. As I am not real familiar with the tuner. I just put in the canned tune.
Oh and the car has never been to the dealer for service, but I need to get it in there for some recall work. Should I put OEM tune back on for this or will it screw up my predator if they flash it?
 

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I just read this whole thread today and learned a lot. I have one question: how will disabling the rear 02 sensors affect the ability of the PCM to keep the A/F at 14.7 (at part throttle)?
 

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I just read this whole thread today and learned a lot. I have one question: how will disabling the rear 02 sensors affect the ability of the PCM to keep the A/F at 14.7 (at part throttle)?
The *rear* O2 sensors are used to check the effectiveness of the cats .. The *front* O2 sensors handle the mixture monitoring. So to answer your question, no effect at all.

--CC
 

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That's great! Thanks for the quick answer.:thumbsup:
 

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Mike, thanks for your quick response. Most consistent of my 20+ runs has been my trap speeds. It took a good 10+ run to figure out the launch process with the crappy RSA tires. Stock speed 104.4 and same for all additional mods including predator. Don’t get me wrong, but I do think the Mods I have made give the car a much better “Seat in the pants” feel. I thought I would pick up at least .3 to .5 secs and maybe 3 to 5 mph at trap. I know my way around a drag strip with a manual. I have been racing for almost 30 years and 90% of my cars have been manuals.
Do you think I am asking too much (.5 secs and 5 mph) from these mods? I really don’t know.

Please explain “In your case, I would have to advise that you do some logging for KR”. As I am not real familiar with the tuner. I just put in the canned tune.
Oh and the car has never been to the dealer for service, but I need to get it in there for some recall work. Should I put OEM tune back on for this or will it screw up my predator if they flash it?
While I can't speak for mike, I think the logic was that since you are trying these things and not seeing any change the 'simplest' or most logical place to start is to find out what in the chain is 'preventing' gains. Logging should help tell you that. But as a guess the most likely culprit would be knock issues.

For example if you have a 91 tune and your car is not taking full advantage of it because the ECU is pulling timing to compensate for knock, and then you install a 93 tune, your results should be about the same as the 91 tune.

On the loges you'll see differences in how much various PID"s adjust, but from the outside the end result would be the same performance from both tunes.. yet in both cases you will not even be seeing the maximum potential gains afforded by the 91 tune.

Tim
 

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^ neidan is very right about the knock sensors effecting power. My wife accidentally put reg gas in the challenger while I was gone and it ran noticably slower until I refilled it with 91.
While we are on the subject, should I do a fuse pull on the PCM to 'reset' it from the old fuel? Or will it learn over time and add the timing back?
 

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^ neidan is very right about the knock sensors effecting power. My wife accidentally put reg gas in the challenger while I was gone and it ran noticably slower until I refilled it with 91.
While we are on the subject, should I do a fuse pull on the PCM to 'reset' it from the old fuel? Or will it learn over time and add the timing back?
I'd pull it, but it will learn over a relatively short time. I just like an excuse to open the hood...
 

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While I can't speak for mike, I think the logic was that since you are trying these things and not seeing any change the 'simplest' or most logical place to start is to find out what in the chain is 'preventing' gains. Logging should help tell you that. But as a guess the most likely culprit would be knock issues.

For example if you have a 91 tune and your car is not taking full advantage of it because the ECU is pulling timing to compensate for knock, and then you install a 93 tune, your results should be about the same as the 91 tune.

On the loges you'll see differences in how much various PID"s adjust, but from the outside the end result would be the same performance from both tunes.. yet in both cases you will not even be seeing the maximum potential gains afforded by the 91 tune.

Tim
Thank you Tim. I don't know much about the predator, but can it do the logging and is there base line reading we can compare to? Is "KR" Knock Reading? I guess I should find a thread here on log readings.

I will try to run the two tunes and look at the reading if the predator can log it.
 

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Thank you Tim. I don't know much about the predator, but can it do the logging and is there base line reading we can compare to? Is "KR" Knock Reading? I guess I should find a thread here on log readings.

I will try to run the two tunes and look at the reading if the predator can log it.
We're kid of hijacking here I think... if you look around for tuning and data logging you'll find a lot of stuff. Check out Diablo's site as well. It's a bit to learn but it's worth the trip, or we can start a thread... Lots of guys here that know more than me for sure...

the KR is Knock Retard. It's letting you know how much the ECU has pulled or 'retarded' ignition timing to try and minimize knock. Fist step would be a good internet search for understanding engine timing and engine timing and knock

Tim
 
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