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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I know most of us enjoy watching these car shows where they take production cars and set lap times and then compare the times. It's a lot of fun! And it's nice to see what a professional driver can do with the cars we all own and love.

But after a while, I kinda grow weary of all the disdain for the Hellcat on the track, because I really feel like the places where Dodge skimped a little to make these amazing cars affordable are the places where the "sports cars" spent more focus on. For example, the tires are always totally bashed in these reviews. "The Hellcat's P Zero's just can't compete with the other cars' track-focused tires," was something Randy Pobst pointed out in the latest GT500 vs ZL1 vs Redeye video. Tires are an easy change, though!

And I get it, they're comparing stock-for-stock. But what happens is all of these stock-for-stock comparisons keeps saying "the Hellcat can't turn" or "the Dodge is a big girl that has some moves, but doesn't belong on a track." Cammisa even said, "no amount of engineering money could turn this thing into a track car."

As a comparison, I've been thinking a lot about the M5 Competition. The M5 Comp has roughly the same weight (4370# vs the Hellcat's 4514#) and a similar size. The M5 Comp has 180 less horsepower. The M5 Comp costs about $40k more than a Redeye ($130k vs $90k). Meanwhile, some reviewers of the M5 Comp couldn't stop talking about it's performance on track - how it was a full on sports car that just happened to have 4 doors. They loved the track performance! Car & Driver has the M5 Comp putting down a lap time almost near that of the C6 ZR1!

Am I wrong to think that if I spent $40k on suspension parts & tires I could get a Redeye to compete with an M5 Comp? I feel like for that money, you would blow the doors off an M5 Comp at the track (aftermarket >> factory). You could have full on R compounds, stiffer springs, stiffer ball joints, upgrades sway bars front & rear, shock tower braces front & rear, adjustable camber plates, brake upgrades. I mean, you could really do some work for $40k!

Am I completely off base here? Is there something so special about the M5 Comp that just makes it untouchable for a "similarly equipped" Hellcat with a properly tuned suspension?
 

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Dodge is the underdog, always will be. When you get a better product that fits your needs and wants better, the competition and buyers of the competition have to justify their decisions somehow. Since they can't do it on function, they go for form, which is subjective.
When people say things like how something performs better at Nürburgring, or Laguna Seca, just say. "OK, I'll rent one of those next time I'm there" Or my Toyisanduh Corentic will last for 20 years, say "That sounds like a life sentence, I wouldn't want to spend 1 year in that car, let alone 20!"
I will not buy a car from a company based in a country that has attacked the USA while they were making cars. I sort of did that with my SLK but it did say "Daimler Chrylser" on it, not Mercedes.
But anyway, with some great tires and a tuned suspension, and a competent driver not with an agenda to prove, I wouldn't bet against a Hellcat.
Watch the Motor trend "World's Greatest Commercial" sorry... "Worlds Greatest Drag Race"
the Redeye has the worst start by far, totally embarrassing, but passes 4 by the ¼ and 2 more at the ½. Never mention that at all how it is powering through the field even with a horrible launch.
I buy cars for the hours and hours I spend in them, not for the first 1.5 seconds. If so, I would get a TrackHawk or Durango SRT8, or used SRT8 Gran Cherokee. Then they say how a Tesla is quicker.

Oh, and back to the video, the drag race starts at 4:42 and takes over a minute for the 11 seconds! Look a the 5:47 mark where it is reeling in the Uros and the AMG and others handily.
 

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Dodge is the underdog, always will be. When you get a better product that fits your needs and wants better, the competition and buyers of the competition have to justify their decisions somehow. Since they can't do it on function, they go for form, which is subjective.
When people say things like how something performs better at Nürburgring, or Laguna Seca, just say. "OK, I'll rent one of those next time I'm there" Or my Toyisanduh Corentic will last for 20 years, say "That sounds like a life sentence, I wouldn't want to spend 1 year in that car, let alone 20!"
I will not buy a car from a company based in a country that has attacked the USA while they were making cars. I sort of did that with my SLK but it did say "Daimler Chrylser" on it, not Mercedes.
But anyway, with some great tires and a tuned suspension, and a competent driver not with an agenda to prove, I wouldn't bet against a Hellcat.
Watch the Motor trend "World's Greatest Commercial" sorry... "Worlds Greatest Drag Race"
the Redeye has the worst start by far, totally embarrassing, but passes 4 by the ¼ and 2 more at the ½. Never mention that at all how it is powering through the field even with a horrible launch.
I buy cars for the hours and hours I spend in them, not for the first 1.5 seconds. If so, I would get a TrackHawk or Durango SRT8, or used SRT8 Gran Cherokee. Then they say how a Tesla is quicker.

Oh, and back to the video, the drag race starts at 4:42 and takes over a minute for the 11 seconds! Look a the 5:47 mark where it is reeling in the Uros and the AMG and others handily.
Wait - redoing the math... Just live and love Dodge, and let the haters hate. It is easier to complain about the "plasic interiors" and "notchy transmissions" than it is to admit how jealous they are that they either got the wrong car, or vastly overpaid for it.
I know a guy that loves imports, and said the "cheap plastic" interior comment. I said, get in my car, close your eyes, and touch something plastic, that isn't a knob or control. There really isn't much in the whole interior. there is soft touch rubber type stuff on the dash, and a LOT of metal trim and facias, but they still all say it. And yeah, a manual that can handle 700 torques isn't going to be butter smooth like the one in a Toyota Echo.
 

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I re-did the math. The Redeye had the 3rd fastest 2nd ¼ mile!!!
986400

Lesson 1, don't drag race on a concrete space shuttle landing strip with drainage grooves.
Lesson 2, get drives that are equally competent to launch all the cars, with practice.
Lesson 3, use good journalism and comment on how something that was 8th in the first ½ of the race was 3rd in the 2nd ½. which is all car, zero driver skill.
Lesson 4 DAMN that Aston Martin is quick as well!
And of all the cars on the list, how many of the top 8 in the 2nd half of the track are under $100,000?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I re-did the math. The Redeye had the 3rd fastest 2nd ¼ mile!!!
View attachment 986400
Lesson 1, don't drag race on a concrete space shuttle landing strip with drainage grooves.
Lesson 2, get drives that are equally competent to launch all the cars, with practice.
Lesson 3, use good journalism and comment on how something that was 8th in the first ½ of the race was 3rd in the 2nd ½. which is all car, zero driver skill.
Lesson 4 DAMN that Aston Martin is quick as well!
And of all the cars on the list, how many of the top 8 in the 2nd half of the track are under $100,000?
Hey there, Pioneer4x4. I appreciate the enthusiasm. You really seem to be riled up about the numbers from MotorTrend. :)

I'm asking about whether suspension mods could make a Hellcat Redeye competitive with a M5 around a road course, though. So, I'm not sure how all of this relates.

But good on you for fighting the the good fight. :)
 

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They compare stock vs stock because that's the baseline. It's also what you are getting when you buy one.

I don't understand this kind of "what if" question. What if the guy spends $40,000 on mods for his M5?
 

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They compare stock vs stock because that's the baseline. It's also what you are getting when you buy one.

I don't understand this kind of "what if" question. What if the guy spends $40,000 on mods for his M5?
What if the question was posted this way:

”If you have $130k to spend, which would be faster on a road course; a Redeye with $40k in suspension and tires, or a stock M5?”
 

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I am sorry but those guys behind the wheels in that vid look like they are driving to church. I hate how they cut to different cameras, just show an overhead view...I don't want to see the smiles and waves...cut to the chase an leave it there.
 

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I know most of us enjoy watching these car shows where they take production cars and set lap times and then compare the times. It's a lot of fun! And it's nice to see what a professional driver can do with the cars we all own and love.

But after a while, I kinda grow weary of all the disdain for the Hellcat on the track, because I really feel like the places where Dodge skimped a little to make these amazing cars affordable are the places where the "sports cars" spent more focus on. For example, the tires are always totally bashed in these reviews. "The Hellcat's P Zero's just can't compete with the other cars' track-focused tires," was something Randy Pobst pointed out in the latest GT500 vs ZL1 vs Redeye video. Tires are an easy change, though!

And I get it, they're comparing stock-for-stock. But what happens is all of these stock-for-stock comparisons keeps saying "the Hellcat can't turn" or "the Dodge is a big girl that has some moves, but doesn't belong on a track." Cammisa even said, "no amount of engineering money could turn this thing into a track car."

As a comparison, I've been thinking a lot about the M5 Competition. The M5 Comp has roughly the same weight (4370# vs the Hellcat's 4514#) and a similar size. The M5 Comp has 180 less horsepower. The M5 Comp costs about $40k more than a Redeye ($130k vs $90k). Meanwhile, some reviewers of the M5 Comp couldn't stop talking about it's performance on track - how it was a full on sports car that just happened to have 4 doors. They loved the track performance! Car & Driver has the M5 Comp putting down a lap time almost near that of the C6 ZR1!

Am I wrong to think that if I spent $40k on suspension parts & tires I could get a Redeye to compete with an M5 Comp? I feel like for that money, you would blow the doors off an M5 Comp at the track (aftermarket >> factory). You could have full on R compounds, stiffer springs, stiffer ball joints, upgrades sway bars front & rear, shock tower braces front & rear, adjustable camber plates, brake upgrades. I mean, you could really do some work for $40k!

Am I completely off base here? Is there something so special about the M5 Comp that just makes it untouchable for a "similarly equipped" Hellcat with a properly tuned suspension?
You can do all of that for a lot less than $40k, and kick their butts and many others.
 

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I really appreciate the OP's question and have had similar thoughts watching some vids. The Mustang GT 500 versus Camaro ZL-1 versus Redeye I happened to catch yesterday. The pro driver who drove all three to compare handling, acceleration and to get a hot lap circuit time had fun in each! The comment was made about tires - how you usually get your best time the first lap on new tires - and how the GT500 had relatively worn tires compared to the other two cars and therefore underperformed from its potential. Most voted the 2020 Mustang the best car for tracking. One driver complained the Challenger's steering was too heavy - apparently ignorant that all you have to do to remedy that is put the electric steering in Sport versus Track mode. So you rarely get the best comparisons - yet that video is fun and it has high production value while wringing out all three cars.

I'm excited about doing more HDPE events this year. Did just the one at NCM last fall and that my first time ever. I loved my Redeye Wide Body Challenger in Sport Mode every moment I drove it on the stock Pirelli all-season tires - but then again I am a Novice Class driver so really have little to compare with. I no doubt benefited from the traction control Sport Mode offers. All in all the car seemed quite predictable, the brakes seemed great and I never felt any fade. It was a total blast coming out of the last turn at NCM into the mile straight and flooring it - the car jumps ahead beautifully. I ceased accelerating at 126 mph consistently and coasted, thinking about the next big right, then left turn - but my neighbor, urged on by his instructor, hit 146 mph in his 2017 Hellcat and then really braked hard several times. He ain't no shrinking violet and he said a couple of times he got scared - especially when the anti-skid starting kicking in before that big turn.

To keep the upgraded handling thread on track in the spirit of the OP, I'm asking for specific advice on how to better improve my Redeye's handling. Advice may apply to most models, but if anyone knows how the 2019 Redeye's suspension was tuned by Dodge and has some practical advice please chime in. Some specific questions...

I know better tires. I have been told that 315 tires (stock are 305's) will fit on the stock 11 inch Devil's Rim rims. Should I stick with 305's, or try 315's all around, or even mix 305's up front and 315's in the rear?

Do anti-sway bars really work?

I don't want (can't) lower the car from stock due to driveway considerations.

Do diffusers really work? At top speeds of 120-130 mph, and consistent speeds up to 70-100 mph? Worth the weight and cost?

Shocks? The three suspension modes of the Hellcat would seem adequate, but?

Thanks for any ideas. Thanks to the OP.

Best,

Finface
 

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I really appreciate the OP's question and have had similar thoughts watching some vids. The Mustang GT 500 versus Camaro ZL-1 versus Redeye I happened to catch yesterday. The pro driver who drove all three to compare handling, acceleration and to get a hot lap circuit time had fun in each! The comment was made about tires - how you usually get your best time the first lap on new tires - and how the GT500 had relatively worn tires compared to the other two cars and therefore underperformed from its potential. Most voted the 2020 Mustang the best car for tracking. One driver complained the Challenger's steering was too heavy - apparently ignorant that all you have to do to remedy that is put the electric steering in Sport versus Track mode. So you rarely get the best comparisons - yet that video is fun and it has high production value while wringing out all three cars.

I'm excited about doing more HDPE events this year. Did just the one at NCM last fall and that my first time ever. I loved my Redeye Wide Body Challenger in Sport Mode every moment I drove it on the stock Pirelli all-season tires - but then again I am a Novice Class driver so really have little to compare with. I no doubt benefited from the traction control Sport Mode offers. All in all the car seemed quite predictable, the brakes seemed great and I never felt any fade. It was a total blast coming out of the last turn at NCM into the mile straight and flooring it - the car jumps ahead beautifully. I ceased accelerating at 126 mph consistently and coasted, thinking about the next big right, then left turn - but my neighbor, urged on by his instructor, hit 146 mph in his 2017 Hellcat and then really braked hard several times. He ain't no shrinking violet and he said a couple of times he got scared - especially when the anti-skid starting kicking in before that big turn.

To keep the upgraded handling thread on track in the spirit of the OP, I'm asking for specific advice on how to better improve my Redeye's handling. Advice may apply to most models, but if anyone knows how the 2019 Redeye's suspension was tuned by Dodge and has some practical advice please chime in. Some specific questions...

I know better tires. I have been told that 315 tires (stock are 305's) will fit on the stock 11 inch Devil's Rim rims. Should I stick with 305's, or try 315's all around, or even mix 305's up front and 315's in the rear?

Do anti-sway bars really work?

I don't want (can't) lower the car from stock due to driveway considerations.

Do diffusers really work? At top speeds of 120-130 mph, and consistent speeds up to 70-100 mph? Worth the weight and cost?

Shocks? The three suspension modes of the Hellcat would seem adequate, but?

Thanks for any ideas. Thanks to the OP.

Best,

Finface
I'll chime in. It is rare for many to be interested in road racing a Challenger. I had a '15 Hellcat and now have a Redeye WB. IMO you have lots of good questions. For casual racing and until you want to get more serious, that car is more competitive than most want us to believe in a HDPE. Especially in groups C and B. First it is not a race right? Safety and all with this is paramount. Most people don't realize they are self insuring the car at track events, unless you have expressly confirmed you have coverage, or purchase insurance for the day.

So right now, the best thing you or anyone starting out needs to mod is the driver. Seat time, instruction and more seat time and experience. Each time you will run faster laps. When it stops getting faster and you are well comfortable in the B group or certainly if you want and can qualify in an A group, then it is time to mod if you want. You give a great example above that tells me a couple of things. Going down that straight, either that guy is nuts, or he may kinda know what he is doing. But, I'll add if he is into the anti-skid part of braking, stay away from him, he don't know shit. For example here; you figure where your brake point is prior to the turn. That is when do you put that foot down harder than you ever have, but not locking it to get to a speed to enter the turn. So anyway, enough, get someone who really knows how to drive to teach you or go to the NCM school, and let them teach you. You will not regret the cost of those first few "mods".

Alright, want to spend some cash on the car huh? Well, the $2,000 set of tires and $500 worth of brake pads as well as more frequent oil changes, gas, track costs, insurance, travel costs and food are all continuing costs. Tires and brakes --- just a few days worth and you need new ones!

I say our cars can run say $2500-$15,000 for road course mods. Here is the order I would use...

Brakes, first the fluid. You get serious at all and the OEM fluid boils.
Then, Demon Performance rotors are some of the best for replacing the OEM's and saving unsprung weight and they wear really well.
With those use racing pads on the course.
With that you can brake about as well as anyone, if you know what you are doing.

Next...I would get the car from tilting so much in the turns. That helps with any camber adjustments for racing, by making the camber need less compensation on the course. Front strut brace and rears if you want. Upgraded adjustable sway bars can make you lighter and even stiffer now in the turns. It still rides well going down the road. Same springs and shocks. Just tighter sway control!

Then, the stock bushings suck! Everywhere! In the front, in tight turns with over 4500 lbs, those bushings up front screw the camber. You will melt the outside shoulders of your tires if you really give it hell. Same for the rears, but not so much. Along with the slop in the steering, front adjustable top control arms heip it. Holds the camber and caster in check and can add more camber to help the tire wear and put those meats down flatter in turns.

In the rear replace everything from the cradle bushings with the Whiteline polyurethane set along with items like the adjustable AAD control arms. Other people make some, but those are most easy to adjust, match their fronts and are of the finest quality out there. Either replace the junk rubber bushings in those tension arms or buy an aftermarket set with a confirmed set of polyurethane bushings. If your serious, replace that toe arm and stop the slop in the toe setting from the soft bushings. Oh, after that, go do the biggest holeshot ever. Take it to the strip with some drag radials, and you will kick butt at this stage. Better have some big sticky meats because it is going to peel out like it is on ice. Wheel hop? Probably gone! You just took out all the slop that was causing it back there.

Kevin Wesley is mentioned above. Great example of taking much more than $15,000 of modifications, but that car is not streetable. It is a racecar. No interior, everything they could find that was not nesessary is gone with the appropriate racing safety equipment added. They are developing some nice shocks with Bilstein. Let's hope soon we could buy a replacement set with a special Track Mode! If we are doing HDPE events and we own a Challenger, we are also into going quick and cruising on the street. Because they are the most comfy and one of the quickest things out there. Do a couple of road course mods and you will have a roll race screamer!

Want to go further, now your "ride" may change. The bushings above could cause some additional NVH. Springs? Be careful. Lower a pre-Demon axle unit and beware. Some of us have had horrible problems with the axle boots busting. I know a guy who has a slightly lowered '16. He blew the crap out of the OEM units as I have at one high speed track. But he has the new style set that the Redeye and reportedly the new Hellcats (2019) have, and they work. Also not all springs are what they seem! I'll attach a chart.

986462


I am installing a front KW set and setting it stock height on my WBRE ;)

For example I modified a '15 Challenger Hellcat similar to above, except with its OEM wheels and Michelin 285/35 PS4S tires all around. It ran the same lap times as a totally stock RE except the brakes as above and R888R 305/35 tires. Now when I can, I will take the RE with the mods above done and 325/30f and 245/30r Cup 2 tires and see how much faster the laps are!

Doing all of that above plus a set of wider custom wheels, and $2,000 worth of tires costs about $13,000, say if you want, someone can put it all in for another $2,000. Call it $15,000. Shed some weight; tear out seats, change the battery, tear out everything including the carpet in the trunk.... get as serious as you want. It will surprise most. Then go take a journalist for a ride!
 
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