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I had a 1995 Grand Prix I traded on my Challenger. It has 60,000 miles almost exactly when I traded it. Over that 21 years 1 set of tires, 1 brake job, 1 battery, one alternator and belt. Oil changes, and that's it. 21 years. Is that typical? Perhaps not, but is the ungodly amount you would have to pay typical? Unlikely. There are benefits to a lease certainly, but purely financially, a lease is more expensive on average.

A Guy
 

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I had a 1995 Grand Prix I traded on my Challenger. It has 60,000 miles almost exactly when I traded it. Over that 21 years 1 set of tires, 1 brake job, 1 battery, one alternator and belt. Oil changes, and that's it. 21 years. Is that typical? Perhaps not, but is the ungodly amount you would have to pay typical? Unlikely. There are benefits to a lease certainly, but purely financially, a lease is more expensive on average.

A Guy

A lease is not more expensive on average. My lease is proof that it isn’t. Owning a car that you’re going to drive all year round and put miles on are going to cost you money over a 12+ year period. You need to consider repair costs as well as wear and tear and rust repairs if you want to keep the car for more than 12 years. You were lucky that your Grand Prix lasted you 21 years. Up here in the communist north where I live 21 year old cars don’t exist. You are lucky if your car will last you 15 years up here without rusting out. I was lucky to get 11 years out of my 2008 Charger.
 

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Well, I don't live there number one, so your assumptions do not apply to everyone. And just because you say a lease is cheaper doesn't make it so. If it were, most people who don't want to modify their cars would just lease. A new car every few years, always under warranty...it would be ideal. But you are also ALWAYS making a car payment, and like renting, you give it back when you are done with it. Even if you do not exceed the mileage, and it doesn't need required repairs when you turn it in, the numbers will favor the buyer. Google "is it cheaper to lease or buy". How many links will say lease?

There are advantage to leasing, but being cheaper, unless it is a business write off, is not one of them. It's not night and day different, but it is more expensive. You saying it is doesn't make it so, and saying all cars need $1,000s in repairs is also not always true.

If you think a lease is better FOR YOU, great, but a blanket statement proven to be wrong on average, doesn't make it better than buying.

A Guy
 

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Well, I don't live there number one, so your assumptions do not apply to everyone. And just because you say a lease is cheaper doesn't make it so. If it were, most people who don't want to modify their cars would just lease. A new car every few years, always under warranty...it would be ideal. But you are also ALWAYS making a car payment, and like renting, you give it back when you are done with it. Even if you do not exceed the mileage, and it doesn't need required repairs when you turn it in, the numbers will favor the buyer. Google "is it cheaper to lease or buy". How many links will say lease?

There are advantage to leasing, but being cheaper, unless it is a business write off, is not one of them. It's not night and day different, but it is more expensive. You saying it is doesn't make it so, and saying all cars need $1,000s in repairs is also not always true.

If you think a lease is better FOR YOU, great, but a blanket statement proven to be wrong on average, doesn't make it better than buying.

A Guy

Google can say what it likes. It's cheaper to buy a Challenger if you drive it only a few thousand miles each year (under 5,000 miles per year). However, it's not cheaper if you drive it year round and put 12,000+ miles per year. I've observed that most people in this forum who own the Challenger, drive it less than 5,000 miles per year. I also own a 2001 Mustang GT which I purchased brand new and I only drive it during the late spring, summer and fall and I only have 33,000 miles on it right now. I haven't spent a lot of money on maintenance on my GT because I haven't put many miles on it in the last 19 years. The maintenance costs on my 19 year old Mustang GT are next to nothing. On average, I've put less than 1,800 miles per year on it for it to have 33,000 miles on it right now after 19 years of ownership. So yes, owning a car is better than leasing one if and only if you drive it sparingly and only and only if you don't put many miles on it over a very long period of time just like I haven't put many miles on my 19 year old Mustang GT. However, if you drive the car like I drive my primary vehicle and put 12,000+ miles per year on it, you will not save any money. You will still have unexpected repair costs, out of warranty repair costs, wear and tear repair costs and body shop repair costs for rust repairs if you live in the northeast or anywhere along the rust belt states. These particular repairs that I listed here are inevitable if you are going to drive the car and put many miles on it each year when you want and have the intention to keep the car for 12 to 15 years or longer. Google doesn't talk about the hidden costs that I mention here that are associated with owning the car when one racks up the miles on it. Again, leasing is cheaper when you put 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year on a car and owning is cheaper if you keep the car as a garage queen and if you don't drive it much like I don’t drive my garage queen 19 year old 2001 Mustang GT very much.

So leasing has its benefits only if you drive a lot and if you put a lot of miles on your car. If you don’t drive a lot and if you put only a few thousand miles per year on your car just like I do with my 2001 Mustang GT, then buying would be a better alternative than leasing. One option works good one way and the other option works well the other way. Choosing the best alternative for oneself to either lease or to buy all depends on the amount of miles that one puts on his car each and every year and the association of the mileage driven with the costs of wear and tear, repairs, out of warranty repairs and rust repairs during that 10 to 12 year period of using the vehicle. That’s the main factor that’s used for one to decide whether they should buy or lease a car. I’ve experienced both alternatives and like I said before here, leasing is the best alternative if you drive a lot and put 12,000+ miles per year on your car and buying is the best alternative if you plan on driving less than 4,000 or 5,000 miles per year for the next 20 years and keeping your car as a garage queen. There’s no in between here. It’s either one alternative or the other. The most logical alternative will be whichever one fits your amount of mileage driving that you do each year over a 10 to 12 year period.
 

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Scatpacksam, you keep bringing up the expensive repairs, that may or may not be needed.

How about if I took those "a few thousand" dollars you pay every three years and bought extended insurance for the money? That would put us on a somewhat equal footing as far as expenses go in the example from a few posts ago.

The main difference being that I don't have to give my car away after 12 years - I could obviously sell it.
That should give me a $15,000 advantage, maybe more. Maybe a lot more.

Also, rust only creates a problem if you allow it to happen. There are numerous ways to delay, maybe even eliminate, rust these days.

For example, unlike the vast majority, I don't wash or wax my vehicles. Instead, I let rain and snow clean the exterior off.
Rather than spending time on the exterior, I make sure that the chassis and everything underneath is clean. Especially after driving in Colorado's evil magnesium chloride de-icer stuff, a small pressure washer is used to cleanse everything as well as possible.

Maybe it's after having spent so much time fixing rust on used cars, but whatever the reason is, I much prefer trying to keep things from rusting in the first place than dealing with the aftermath.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Yeah, maybe it's me, but I haven't had body-related rust issues on a car in a LONG time. My Lacrosse was 14 years it and not a hint of body rust - and I live in PA, where snow and road salt are common in the winter. I also haven't had any major repair bills. If the cars you are buying have these issues in less than 12 years, there it's time to start buying more reliable cars. :) If this Challenger, my first Dodge, does have body rust issues in less than 10 years, then in will most likely be my first - and last - Dodge.

Not to mention - if you REALLY want to save money, buy a 2 or 3 year old car - that will save you even more than buying brand new. Hell, I saved about $7k by buying my 2018 GT with only 3k miles on it instead of brand new.

From what I can see, leasing will never be a better option from what I can tell. Financially or otherwise. Unless you get a lemon or a really unreliable car. :)
@Scatpacksam - I'm curious - have you ever *actually* leased a car before? Or will this be your first time?
 

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It comes down to how long you keep it and if you will resell it. If I were to get a new pickup, I think leasing would make sense. Used pickups or V8 anything is a hard sell here with gas today at $6.53 / US gallon (1.729 / litre).
A 2 year lease on a Sierra Elevation edition is $259/ bi weekly with $3000 down. To buy the truck is $53,000. Total lease commitment is $16468. You walk away without the hassle of having to sell your pickup in this market. Taxes are extra in both scenarios.
 

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Scatpacksam, you keep bringing up the expensive repairs, that may or may not be needed.

How about if I took those "a few thousand" dollars you pay every three years and bought extended insurance for the money? That would put us on a somewhat equal footing as far as expenses go in the example from a few posts ago.

The main difference being that I don't have to give my car away after 12 years - I could obviously sell it.
That should give me a $15,000 advantage, maybe more. Maybe a lot more.

Also, rust only creates a problem if you allow it to happen. There are numerous ways to delay, maybe even eliminate, rust these days.

For example, unlike the vast majority, I don't wash or wax my vehicles. Instead, I let rain and snow clean the exterior off.
Rather than spending time on the exterior, I make sure that the chassis and everything underneath is clean. Especially after driving in Colorado's evil magnesium chloride de-icer stuff, a small pressure washer is used to cleanse everything as well as possible.

Maybe it's after having spent so much time fixing rust on used cars, but whatever the reason is, I much prefer trying to keep things from rusting in the first place than dealing with the aftermath.

What type of extended insurance are you taking about? An extended warranty? I purchased an extended warranty for all the cars that I've owned. The extended warranty is useful, but not useful for replacing, fixing and repairing wear and tear items that need to be done because of high mileage. Also, I've tried to delay rust on my 2008 Charger R/T and I was able to delay it for only 9 years. After the 9 years, I couldn't stop rust from appearing on my car. Rust is unavoidable and certain to happen on a car that's driven all year round up here in the Communist northeast. I pressure washed the chassis on my Charger all the time. However, salt still deposits itself in crevices and bakes into the metal causing rust to appear many years later.

And yes, you can sell your car and get $10,000 to $15,000 for it and use that money to put down for a new Scat Pack. However, the $15,000 down payment is not enough money to put down to have a reasonable monthly loan payment. These Scat Packs aren't cheap and they cost between $40,000 and $55,000. Especially the Wide Body that like which I ordered ($52,000 minus rebates). A reasonable monthly payment for me is between $450 and $525 maybe $550 or $575 per month max. I can afford more than that if I had to, but I don't like paying anymore than $450 to $575 per month for a car loan payment. That's the cutoff line for me. I would rather save that extra few hundred dollars each month on the difference on the monthly payment and invest it to get a return on it. Anything more than $575 or $600 per month for a car is ridiculous no matter how nice the car is or drives. Most people in here that own the Scat pack have $850 and $950 monthly payments. That's not cheap even if you can afford it. That's almost like having a house mortgage on a piece of metal that depreciates and it's not by cup of tea. I would rather pay $850 and $950 for a piece of real estate that will give me an income of $2,000 and $3,000 per month in income than in a depreciable asset like a car. But that's me. Some people don't think like I do and that's ok. However, for me, leasing a Scat Pack is not an emotional thing like a lot of other people in here who own these cars. For me, it's a business deal. I don't get emotionally attached to the car. I treat my cars like a girlfriend. You have her and enjoy her for a few years and then you get sick and tired of her and move on to another girlfriend. There will always be a better car to drive out there every few years. It's fun to be able to lease a new better body style or a better upgraded car every 3 years. I don't have to be stuck with my vehicle for 10, 12 or 15 years when I can easily find a better and a newer vehicle through leasing every 3 years.

Also, in order to make the payments be at $450 to $575 per month, you need to put down much more than $15,000 for a $50,000 Wide Body Scat Pack. You will need to put down more like $25,000 to $30,000 to get the payments under $600 per month. I'm the type of person who doesn't like to plop a $25,000 to $30,000 down payment for a $50,000 car every 12 years. It's a waste of money for me. I would rather invest it in a capital asset that will give me a return on my investment and use the income to lease and do other fun things with it like go on vacations to Greece, Florida and the Caribbean.

I'm not saying that I'm right or wrong by my post here. However, I see leasing a car as a business deal. Everything that I've done in my life has been a business deal. Even my marriage to my hot and beautiful wife of 27 years. I've learned that when you do things in life as a business deal and if you make the right decisions, you will benefit from them and live comfortably.
 

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It comes down to how long you keep it and if you will resell it. If I were to get a new pickup, I think leasing would make sense. Used pickups or V8 anything is a hard sell here with gas today at $6.53 / US gallon (1.729 / litre).
A 2 year lease on a Sierra Elevation edition is $259/ bi weekly with $3000 down. To buy the truck is $53,000. Total lease commitment is $16468. You walk away without the hassle of having to sell your pickup in this market. Taxes are extra in both scenarios.

EXACTLY!!! This is what I've been trying to tell everybody in here. Add in the driving mileage like I have together with all the hassles of owning and repairs and maintenance and rust and you just have more aggravation with these things. It's much better to walk away without these hassles and get into another vehicle just like it's better to walk away from a girlfriend when you put mileage on here and get sick and tired of her. Then you know that it's time to walk away and get another new girlfriend.:smile:
 

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What type of extended insurance are you taking about? An extended warranty? I purchased an extended warranty for all the cars that I've owned. The extended warranty is useful, but not useful for replacing, fixing and repairing wear and tear items that need to be done because of high mileage.

Rust is unavoidable and certain to happen on a car that's driven all year round up here in the Communist northeast. I pressure washed the chassis on my Charger all the time. However, salt still deposits itself in crevices and bakes into the metal causing rust to appear many years later.

These Scat Packs aren't cheap and they cost between $40,000 and $55,000. Especially the Wide Body that like which I ordered ($52,000 minus rebates).
Sorry, I meant warranty, not insurance. Anyway, wear items are generally not expensive, and easy to replace.

I was not aware of that rust is unavoidable. I knew that it could be neglected, though.

My example from earlier was apparently a bit lopsided. My figures were based on a $72,000 car, not a $52,000 car.
 

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I think it's a trend:

Car leasing volume grew by 91% in the past 5 years

One-third of millennials who got new vehicles in 2016, leased the new vehicle instead of purchasing it
Also, many leases require gap insurance on top of full insurance.

Again if it suits your needs, by all means, but it's not cheaper on average than buying (average means non rust belt apparently, but rust belt people are replying no guaranteed huge rust repairs).

A Guy
 

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We'd be reading Subaru forums, or whatever dreadful practical stuff is out there.
I would like to point out that my Subaru allows my Challenger to survive the indignity of a roof rack with a kayak attached and more importantly keeps me from snow blowing my drive way every time it snows. :grin2:
 

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I think it's a trend:



Also, many leases require gap insurance on top of full insurance.

Again if it suits your needs, by all means, but it's not cheaper on average than buying (average means non rust belt apparently, but rust belt people are replying no guaranteed huge rust repairs).

A Guy

Gap insurance is included in the payments my Challenger Scar Pack Wide Body lease.
 

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I would like to point out that my Subaru allows my Challenger to survive the indignity of a roof rack with a kayak attached and more importantly keeps me from snow blowing my drive way every time it snows. :grin2:

My friend leases a Subaru. After learning that I’m leasing a Wide Body, he now wants to lease one too.
 

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Awesome on the gap insurance. Here's what I can guarantee...you'll enjoy the heck out of that Scat Pack ;) It will come...

A Guy
 

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My 2009 Dodge challenger rear quarter panels are rusting and getting even worse. It didn't matter I kept it in my garage every night too. I always washed it as often as possible to remove any winter salt but made no difference. From this forum (what I've read) it's a design flaw with the drainage holes and Dodge has made no changes to Challenger (long term) to resolve the issue so no matter what the rust will return anyway? So what's the solution? Rework and rediesgn the drainage holes? It is however my daily driver, so it has seen plenty of NJ winters and rain. I noticed the RUST starting to show back in 2017 but from what I'm told, once you see rust, it's probably much worse then you know.. I now have 170,000+ miles on it. Got a couple of quotes of over $1000 maybe more to fix. this doesn't include the stock rims also have corrosion too and are pitted badly. It'll cost more to fix than it's worth.
 

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Rear Quarter Panel RUST

Yeah, LOOK at my 10 year old 2009 Dodge Challenger and this RUST in the REAR quarter panels. The other side is equally as bad IF not worse too! POOR design, quality control or drainage hole misplacement? EVEN if they fix it for over $1000 (maybe more) depending on how deep or far it goes, it will return because the drainage hole aren't correct? So WHAT is the LONG term solution? I want to KEEP my car forever but now I'm like what to do? The wheel skins are one fix, now this too? What's NEXT?
 

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Yeah, LOOK at my 10 year old 2009 Dodge Challenger and this RUST in the REAR quarter panels. The other side is equally as bad IF not worse too! POOR design, quality control or drainage hole misplacement? EVEN if they fix it for over $1000 (maybe more) depending on how deep or far it goes, it will return because the drainage hole aren't correct? So WHAT is the LONG term solution? I want to KEEP my car forever but now I'm like what to do? The wheel skins are one fix, now this too? What's NEXT?
I too have it on both sides on my '09. First noticed I think in 2015 (maybe 2016). It was just one side at first, but the other side had tiny bumps I could feel though not really see.

I complained to Chrysler Fiat, and they did agree to repair the first side. Now, the 2nd side is worse than the first side was and the repaired side has bumps popping up again.

It was $1,500ish to repair the first side, so it would be double that to fix both sides...with a high probability of it returning.

My wife wants me to sell it, but I don't know how much that will kill the value in a sale, and I still really like the car and it drives great. I wanted this to be a 20 year car for me (at 10.5 now), but with this rust, I am not sure how to proceed. I don't want to constantly be repairing rust, but don't want to sell it either.
 

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That was one of the reasons I got rid of my 2006 Charger in 2015, it was getting up there in miles and needed a couple other things, and I did a poor repair job on that side, but it looked okish.
 

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Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)
I still can''t believe these cars rust out like that- it is so unfortunate. I know there is talk of the 2015+ models being redesigned in that rear wheel-well area, which *should* help with the issue, but I have my doubts. I typically like to keep my cars for 15+ years, but it seems that these Challengers just may not be "long-term" material - not matter how good you take care of them, which really sucks. I really keep my vehicle costs down by buying lightly-used (less than 3 years old with less than 30k miles) and then keeping them for anywhere between 10 to 15+ years - which was also the plan for my 2018 Challenger GT - but it doesn't look like that plan is going to work out well for my 2018 GT (AWD - will be driven year-round in PA).

The "trick" is going to be knowing when the rust is *almost* ready start showing it's ugly head via paint bubbling - and trade it in before that occcurs. Probably easier said than done though. Even with a boroscope, I'm not sure if you can easily see the inside of the area where they rust.
 
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