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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here's the horrid ending to my Cam and lifters replacement. I'm just sick about this whole ordeal and what to do about it.

I have a 2008 Challenger SRT8 with only 43K miles that developed a loud tapping/ticking noise that was thought to be a bad lifter.

I found a reputable Mopar shop as recommended to me by the company from whom I purchased their SRT aftermarket cam.

In addition to replacing the cam and lifters I asked that he also drop my oil pan and check for any metal filings. The labor quote included cleaning the Oil pan and inspecting the bearings for damage due to metal filings.
After removal_The cam had about a 1/32" groove in one of the lobes.
According to the mechanic there was nothing to worry about after inspection of the oil_I also witnessed that he had indeed dropped the pan.
The oil screen at the base of the pump looked clean when I looked at it later.

According to the mechanic_after about the 5th run on the Dyno the engine seized up. He said that he had seen good oil pressure prior to the engine failure_he quoted seeing 60 lbs pressure
He also mentioned Dyno RPM ranges around 5000RPM

He pulled the motor today and showed me a burnt piston connecting rod bearing he pulled from one of my cylinders.
He's sending the engine off on Monday to have his engine guy pull the crank and inspect it and the associated parts.

Any suggestions or questions I should be asking him after inspection of the engine?
I really don't want to throw any more money at this but is there anything that can be done without alot of expense when the engine is apart and in this state?
Honestly I am not sure that I even want the car after all this.

I would truly appreciate all your comments because I am just sideways over this.
 

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I presume this happened as they where tuning the engine? Are logs available including AFR's? The only work they did was the cam and lifters? Did they make the original diagnosis?
 

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How could this possibly be the mechanics fault? The wearing of the cam caused the bearing problem. You could have had him check the bearings when the pan was off, he should have probably known that, but still, the problem was there, he didn't cause it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I presume this happened as they where tuning the engine? Are logs available including AFR's? The only work they did was the cam and lifters? Did they make the original diagnosis?


yes this happened on one of the last Dyno runs according to the mechanic
I do not know if the AFRs are available
Yes only cam and lifters were replaced
The diagnosis was assumed prior to contacting this shop, I assumed he would confirm once he pulled it apart
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
How could this possibly be the mechanics fault? The wearing of the cam caused the bearing problem. You could have had him check the bearings when the pan was off, he should have probably known that, but still, the problem was there, he didn't cause it.

My comment on the mechanics fault or oversight really has to do with the fact that he was supposed to check the bearings for damage as part of the repair process as we agreed upon in the repair quote.

Note that this bad lifter was not affecting anything other than me hearing the tapping_there was no misfiring etc.
I did drive the car for a short period of time at low speeds prior to the repair. i would guess a total of 100-200 miles at speeds of 40mph

Although the mechanic noted that he had seen good oil pressure during the Dyno he did say that after inspection and dropping the oil pan this was seemingly caused by low oil pressure if I remember him correctly.
Although to be fair he seemed to be questioning just what had actually happened
 

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I'm not as mechanically savvy as I would like to be so forgive my questions:
A bad lifter notching 1 cam lobe could have caused a bearing problem on the crankshaft?
Note that this bad lifter was not affecting anything other than me hearing the tapping_there was no misfiring etc.
I did drive the car for a short period of time at low speeds prior to the repair. i would guess a total of 100-200 miles at speeds of 40mph

Although the mechanic noted that he had seen good oil pressure during the Dyno he did say that after inspection and dropping the oil pan this was seemingly caused by low oil pressure if I remember him correctly.
Although to be fair he seemed to be questioning just what had actually happened

If there was metal wear on the cam lobe that metal went somewhere and that somewhere is all through the oiling system. So yes, metal wear on a cam lobe will introduce metal particles into the oil which will be pumped through the bearings.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If there was metal wear on the cam lobe that metal went somewhere and that somewhere is all through the oiling system. So yes, metal wear on a cam lobe will introduce metal particles into the oil which will be pumped through the bearings.
That makes absolute sense and that was my original fear which is why I asked him to drop the oil pan.
However the mechanic did not see any evidence of substantial metal fillings and he did not seem at all concerned with this.
If I remember him correctly he said the screen would filter out those metal particles before causing any damage.
In fact he said he never dropped the oil pan when doing this sort of repair and I had to request that he did it on my car just for my own piece of mind.
 

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That makes absolute sense and that was my original fear which is why I asked him to drop the oil pan.
However the mechanic did not see any evidence of substantial metal fillings and he did not seem at all concerned with this.
If I remember him correctly he said the screen would filter out those metal particles before causing any damage.
In fact he said he never dropped the oil pan when doing this sort of repair and I had to request that he did it on my car just for my own piece of mind.
The screen on the pickup is there to filter large chunks of metal, the oil filter is there to filter particles out of oil

down to about 10 microns. But it all depends on how the oil system routes through the engine. Typically in a V8

the oil is picked up from the pan by the strainer, it's then fed by the pump through the oil filter. The oil leaves the
filter under pressure where it's fed into the Camshaft and Main bearings from the Main bearings oil feeds the Rod bearings.
Oil fed to the Cam bearings will then be routed up to lubricate rockers, shafts, oil squirters etc. The

oil then gravity drains back to the pan through drainage holes in the block and heads.

You would think the contaminated oil would go back to the filter but it's very possible for particulates to make
it through the engine as nothing is 100%.
 

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your may have had a bearing that had greater clearance than spec and it spun and cut off the oil supply hole to that bearing and it seized.

If it appeared on multiple bearings, then it would indicate that oil passages were restricted or plugging up.

It could be that it was the just the right timing of events + 43K of wear that it happened.

Sorry to hear about the situation. Hopefully everything can be rebuilt and get you back on the road.
 

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The screen on the pickup is there to filter large chunks of metal, the oil filter is there to filter particles out of oil

down to about 10 microns. But it all depends on how the oil system routes through the engine. Typically in a V8

the oil is picked up from the pan by the strainer, it's then fed by the pump through the oil filter. The oil leaves the
filter under pressure where it's fed into the Camshaft and Main bearings from the Main bearings oil feeds the Rod bearings. Oil fed to the Cam bearings will then be routed up to lubricate rockers, shafts, oil squirters etc. The

oil then gravity drains back to the pan through drainage holes in the block and heads.

You would think the contaminated oil would go back to the filter but it's very possible for particulates to make
it through the engine as nothing is 100%.
I agree with this statement, a visual inspection of the oil pickup tube is no way to tell if there is damage throughout the engine from the metal introduced by the worn cam. The filter may get the worst of it but there is still exposure while the oil travels through the system to the filter. Also if you did any hard acceleration the bypass valve on the filter would have let unfiltered oil through the system. Personally I would have had the entire engine rebuilt if I had found a cam lobe ground down that far. Also depending on how much of the cam wore between oil changes it could have possibly maxed out the capacity of the oil filter to hold debris. I really think the issue is related to the cam going out.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I agree with this statement, a visual inspection of the oil pickup tube is no way to tell if there is damage throughout the engine from the metal introduced by the worn cam. The filter may get the worst of it but there is still exposure while the oil travels through the system to the filter. Also if you did any hard acceleration the bypass valve on the filter would have let unfiltered oil through the system. Personally I would have had the entire engine rebuilt if I had found a cam lobe ground down that far. Also depending on how much of the cam wore between oil changes it could have possibly maxed out the capacity of the oil filter to hold debris. I really think the issue is related to the cam going out.
Ok thanks
I just realized that my original posting approximated the incorrect depth of the groove in my cam. The approximate groove depth was closer to 1/32"
Besides loosing sleep over this I've also lost the ability to do simple math:)
 

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I agree with this statement, a visual inspection of the oil pickup tube is no way to tell if there is damage throughout the engine from the metal introduced by the worn cam. The filter may get the worst of it but there is still exposure while the oil travels through the system to the filter. Also if you did any hard acceleration the bypass valve on the filter would have let unfiltered oil through the system. Personally I would have had the entire engine rebuilt if I had found a cam lobe ground down that far. Also depending on how much of the cam wore between oil changes it could have possibly maxed out the capacity of the oil filter to hold debris. I really think the issue is related to the cam going out.

Agree.


A worn cam lobe really means the engine should be removed from the car, torn down, after the block and heads and other hardware thoroughly cleaned then the crank main and rod journal condition is checked and wear checked and cylinder/piston wear checked.


If the crank journals are ok new bearing shells used. Almost certainly the cylinders get bored out the next size up -- 0.010" to 0.030" -- and new pistons and rings fitted.


A new cam, cam drive, new lifters installed.


A new oil pump.


A new water pump and T-stat.


The dropping of the oil pan was a waste of time and insufficient given the presence of a worn cam lobe.
 

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Here's the horrid ending to my Cam and lifters replacement. I'm just sick about this whole ordeal and what to do about it.

I have a 2008 Challenger SRT8 with only 43K miles that developed a loud tapping/ticking noise that was thought to be a bad lifter.

I found what I thought to be a reputable Mopar shop as recommended to me by the company from whom I purchased their SRT aftermarket cam.

In addition to replacing the cam and lifters I asked that he also drop my oil pan and check for any metal filings. The labor quote included cleaning the Oil pan and inspecting the bearings for damage due to metal filings.
After removal_The cam had about a 1/32" groove in one of the lobes.
According to the mechanic there was nothing to worry about after inspection of the oil_I also witnessed that he had indeed dropped the pan.
The oil screen at the base of the pump looked clean when I looked at it later.

According to the mechanic_after about the 5th run on the Dyno the engine seized up. He said that he had seen good oil pressure prior to the engine failure_he quoted seeing 60 lbs pressure
He also mentioned Dyno RPM ranges around 5000RPM

He pulled the motor today and showed me a burnt piston connecting rod bearing he pulled from one of my cylinders.
He's sending the engine off on Monday to have his engine guy pull the crank and inspect it and the associated parts.

Of course my worry is what else fried? Did this also fry my brand new lifters and Cam? How would I know?

Any suggestions or questions I should be asking him after inspection of the engine?
I really don't want to throw any more money at this but is there anything that can be done without alot of expense when the engine is apart and in this state?
Honestly I am not sure that I even want the car after all this.

For now I will not make any comments about the Mopar shop until this all gets sorted out. The mechanic seems knowledgeable and a really good dude and I feel that he is a straight shooter. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and not rush to any judgement. Having said that I can't help but think that this was somehow his fault and oversight. As I mentioned above he was supposed to check the Bearings for damage due to metal filings as part of the repair quote. I look forward to all of your comments so that I can make some sense of this.

I signed a seemingly Standard Authorization Waiver with an Arbitration Clause_Should I expect him to pick up all the associated costs involved with the damage caused by this Seizure?

I would truly appreciate all your comments because I am just sideways over this.


When you say "i'm not even sure I want the car after this"........ in that I can just hear your emotion in charge and you have my sympathies this certainly SUCKS!!

I don't think there is any recourse here concerning holding either the mechanic or the shop accountable for your loss of the engine and the expense that now comes with that. Ultimately this is just the sad reality of what CAN happen when the quick fix rather than and in-depth serious rebuild after something as serious as internal damage complete with metal going through a running engine happens.

You'll have to pull out that piece of paper and make some calls to help you decide what the car is worth as it sits vs. what it's worth fixed and running again under the different scenarios available to you.

All you can realistically do now is price out all the options concerning what you could do next to either save it for future use or move onto something else.

Toughest part will be setting aside the emotions. I'm sure you're both heartbroken and pissed off but neither of these emotions will help you decide what to do next.

Good luck with what-ever you decide to do....... hopefully there is a way to justify saving the 11 year old car but really leave the emotion at the curb. If you can't you might just up spending more than saving this one car among many like it out there is worth. Do that and the regret only gets bigger later. I think most have been here at some point .....I know I have.....it's tough to give up on a car you really like but in the end it's just a "dodge" among many and you can get in deeper than it's worth pretty quick these days.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
When you say "i'm not even sure I want the car after this"........ in that I can just hear your emotion in charge and you have my sympathies this certainly SUCKS!!

I don't think there is any recourse here concerning holding either the mechanic or the shop accountable for your loss of the engine and the expense that now comes with that. Ultimately this is just the sad reality of what CAN happen when the quick fix rather than and in-depth serious rebuild after something as serious as internal damage complete with metal going through a running engine happens.

You'll have to pull out that piece of paper and make some calls to help you decide what the car is worth as it sits vs. what it's worth fixed and running again under the different scenarios available to you.

All you can realistically do now is price out all the options concerning what you could do next to either save it for future use or move onto something else.

Toughest part will be setting aside the emotions. I'm sure you're both heartbroken and pissed off but neither of these emotions will help you decide what to do next.

Good luck with what-ever you decide to do....... hopefully there is a way to justify saving the 11 year old car but really leave the emotion at the curb. If you can't you might just up spending more than saving this one car among many like it out there is worth. Do that and the regret only gets bigger later. I think most have been here at some point .....I know I have.....it's tough to give up on a car you really like but in the end it's just a "dodge" among many and you can get in deeper than it's worth pretty quick these days.
I hear what your saying and I've been there and back on this
I'm the original owner and I've babied the car ever since I pulled out of the dealership in 2008
It really does SUCK and yes I'm mad and heartbroken at the same time.
I was planning on keeping it for a long time because I loved the car.
I'm waiting to hear the extent of damage after the mechanic pulls it apart. If it has to go _it has to go!!
 

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Well unfortunately this falls under the category of Chit happens and it would be hard to blame the shop for the grenaded motor since it doesn't seem to be related- just bad timing.
I think there are a several things to consider now IMO. First is keeping or getting rid of the car, are you wanting to sell it because you are mad about what happened and just saying F it because of it or were you tired of it before hand and already thinking of parting ways with it? Second If you do sell it you probably won't get too much for it with a smoked motor so prepare for a loss there. Like others have said if you are attached to it, give it a few weeks and see if your view changes for the better.
Is the motor the only thing wrong with it? Is the body in good shape? No other problems before this happened? If so it might be more financially feasible to keep it and put motor in it. Maybe get a warmed over engine built by a reputable company that is well versed in modern Hemi motors since a new motor will be far cheaper than a new car payment even if if you have to get a loan for the engine. If you are mechanically inclined you could do the work yourself, not only will you save money you can say you did it all yourself. If your not then have a beer party with some friends that are mechanically incline and you can help them and learn along the way.

Just a few more thing to think about, hope this helps and good luck with the car! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well unfortunately this falls under the category of Chit happens and it would be hard to blame the shop for the grenaded motor since it doesn't seem to be related- just bad timing.
I think there are a several things to consider now IMO. First is keeping or getting rid of the car, are you wanting to sell it because you are mad about what happened and just saying F it because of it or were you tired of it before hand and already thinking of parting ways with it? Second If you do sell it you probably won't get too much for it with a smoked motor so prepare for a loss there. Like others have said if you are attached to it, give it a few weeks and see if your view changes for the better.
Is the motor the only thing wrong with it? Is the body in good shape? No other problems before this happened? If so it might be more financially feasible to keep it and put motor in it. Maybe get a warmed over engine built by a reputable company that is well versed in modern Hemi motors since a new motor will be far cheaper than a new car payment even if if you have to get a loan for the engine. If you are mechanically inclined you could do the work yourself, not only will you save money you can say you did it all yourself. If your not then have a beer party with some friends that are mechanically incline and you can help them and learn along the way.

Just a few more thing to think about, hope this helps and good luck with the car! :)

A short story:
When I was a kid_I saw the 1970 Challenger and thought that was the baddest car I ever saw. It was only a Dreamcar then.
When I saw it in the dealership in 2008 I immediately bought it. Being the first Limited Edition release I was actually happy to just keep it Stock.
To this day whenever I look at it it still looks badass and it reminds me off that Dreamcar when I was a kid.

To have all this BS happen to my car with 43K miles after I have taken such good care of it just really pisses me off.
I have always changed the Mobil1oil whenever the Dash light came on and I wouldn't even drive it when it rained:)
This all happened because of inferior lifters that Dodge installed in these cars.
In the end its just a car and I can always get another car.

It's the Dreamcar memory that has taken the hit!
 

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Metal mites?

I see an easy fix for the whole mess.......2 words, "long block". Also, the word "assume" was mentioned earlier in this thread, many of us know what happens when this word is broken down in a certain way..........."ass u me".......!! Learned this lesson myself very early on between military service and 35+ years in the mechanical business. Not trying to rub salt in your wounds, but one can never "assume" that something is what they think it is or should be.
I'd just go ahead and get the correct replacement engine from Mopar for it and drop it in if it were me, just saying. Cost is equivalent for overhaul of the existing engine assembly as opposed to the cost of a long block IMHO.
Cut your losses and run with it, and enjoy your ride some more once it is repaired! :5:
 

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Did he pull the main caps to check the bearings and not re-install them properly? If he did not torque them down correctly or put them in properly that may have caused your issue as well. Now if he didnt pull the main caps then its just bad luck it sounds like.
 

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Sorry to hear about your motor, but it should have never been just looked at following that cam failure. It should have been completely torn down, thoroughly washed and all new innards installed. Minute pieces of hardened steel pumping through the oil cavities to every part of that motor was a guaranteed death sentence. Consider yourself lucky that it seized up on the dyno and not somewhere that could have got you or someone else hurt or worse. I agree with others that a new long block is probably your best bet if you plan to keep the car.



It does suck...
 
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