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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok, without everyone getting out their flamethrowers, I was curious about how "great" the Pennzoil Ultra that Dodge is pitching for their SRT products. Personally, I like Amsoil, and have had excellent results with it in my Harley, and various engines and transmissions. But let me give you a little background on how my mind works: I'm an engineer, and I like to do things well beyond need. For instance, what started this fact-finding mission was my consideration for the 2016 Challenger SRT HC that I am anticipating. Personally, I will take it in at 500-1000 miles and have ALL the fluids changed (Engine oil, transmission oil and rear-end oil). Why? Because I don't care how precisely you machine your engine components (and I especially don't care if the maintenance schedule says I can change the trans oil at 45 or 60k), there will be break-in, and there will be cast-off. And I don't want that debris flowing through my shiny new Challenger (for what could be years, before the recommended service interval), which I intend to keep for literally the rest of my life. So I wanted to know: Should I let them put the SRT Pennzoil Ultra back in it, or should I switch to something else? What I found actually surprised me a bit.

So my quasi-anal-retentive thought process is that not only do I change the oil well before recommended intervals, I also try to ensure that I put the best oil I can reasonably find. After all, I'm not going to simply "take their word for it," I want to know that I'm using the best oil I can realistically find. What I found, verified from multiple independent sources, was the following: (if you want to look at the whole post including test methodology and full results list, it's here: Motor Oil Wear Test Results – Caution, VERY long • Speed Talk)

A little background:
Film strength is the oil's ability to maintain a film between two metal surfaces when pressure is applied. Obviously, film strength is very important in places like main and rod bearings, and rocker rollers, etc. Zinc, phosphates and molybendum are obviously also important (race oils tend to have lots of zinc, but if you put it in a standard vehicle, it can clod the catalytic converter very quickly, and they generally lack the detergents that prevent gunk buildup).

FYI: the film strength is the first number, quantified in psi

1. 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM = 115,612 psi
I have not been able to find this oil with the latest API SN certification. The bottle says, “No leading synthetic oil provides better wear protection”. For once, a product’s hype turns out to be true.
zinc = 806 ppm
phos = 812 ppm
moly = 66 ppm

2. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phos = 3489 ppm
moly = 1764 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

3. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN = 105,875 psi
zinc = 801 ppm
phos = 842 ppm
moly = 112 ppm

4. 0W30 Amsoil Signature Series 25,000 miles, API SN = 105,008 psi
zinc = 824 ppm
phos = 960 ppm
moly = 161 ppm


Now, I'm not trying to doubt that Dodge/SRT wouldn't want the best oils possible in their vehicles, but we all know that many of the "factory recommended oil" certifications have more to do with advertising dollars and bulk oil contracts than quality. However, it seems that Dodge/SRT truly did seek to come up with an excellent lubricant in its collaboration with Pennzoil, and succeeded. I feel better now...
 

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However, it seems that Dodge/SRT truly did seek to come up with an excellent lubricant in its collaboration with Pennzoil, and succeeded. I feel better now...
I have a dog in this fight. I am completely biased.

Errrr.....

Fiat own Chrysler
Fiat own Ferrari
Shell has a freaking massive sponsorship deal with Ferrari.
Shell own Pennzoil

This was, and always will be, a business deal.

But since you asked, Pennzoil Ultra is a fantastic lubricant. You should all buy it and make sure Shell makes lots of money to pay its nice employees.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
I have a dog in this fight. I am completely biased.

Errrr.....

Fiat own Chrysler
Fiat own Ferrari
Shell has a freaking massive sponsorship deal with Ferrari.
Shell own Pennzoil

This was, and always will be, a business deal.

But since you asked, Pennzoil Ultra is a fantastic lubricant. You should all buy it and make sure Shell makes lots of money to pay its nice employees.
Hence my desire to seek out independent test results, and not ones that were sponsored by an OEM or oil manufacturer. Business deal or not, it seems that the desired outcome (good oil for us) was the result.

edit: By your own logic, the business relationship is good, because who wants to put crappy oil in their Ferrari?
 

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Hence my desire to seek out independent test results, and not ones that were sponsored by an OEM or oil manufacturer
Also keep in mind that this great collaboration and careful selection of the best oil for the engine involved a slight detour as Shell and Chrysler chose the wrong weight of oil for the SRT engines. The original Chrysler spec was 0W40, Pennzoil didn't have that weight available so it was decided that 5W40 would be close enough.

Apparently it wasn't. The SRT engines were bogging down at certain revs with that weight. So Shell / Pennzoil had to quickly develop 0W40 Ultra.

Now that minor hiccup is used as a success story on how responsive and helpful Shell are to their large corporate partners.

FWIW, although I exclusively use Pennzoil in all my vehicles, and I am obviously completely biased, I'd suggest that all of the top tier lubricants will be just great for your engine. I don't think of one being that much better than the other, except in terms of who pays my salary. I'm not a huge follower of the lubricant wars, or the my oil has more moly-poly-doowhop than your lubricant. In my mind, if your oils performance is that important to you, then simply change it a little more frequently. A 1% better performing product out of the bottle is easily overcome by more frequent changes.
 

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'13 392 here. Audible "tick" with the Penzoil. Couldn't find that oil where I live so I defaulted to Mobile 1. Realized a few days/week later not at first noticing, but the "tick" is faint on start up then disappears when warmed up. I have no engineering experience or even documentation to back up this claim, just my own two ears. So that tells me to continue to use Mobile 1.
PS-I'm sure Penzoil is a great oil, MOPAR wouldn't put their name on the case if it weren't, regardless how much they line each other's pockets.


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edit: By your own logic, the business relationship is good, because who wants to put crappy oil in their Ferrari?
I'm saying all of the lubricants you listed are top performing synthetic oils, and they would all be great in our Chrysler engines, and if the correct weight, would be great in a Ferrari too.

One might be slightly better at one test, and one might be slightly better at a different test. One might last 1000 miles longer before the properties start to fade...... But overall, they are all great.

The deal with Ferrari (and Chrysler) is business. Shell have had a partnership with Ferrari since 1929 when they sponsored the great Enzo Ferrari when he was a racing driver. Fiat are not about to lose that history by using an alternative lubricant. Fiat marketing people are wise to keep that going, it is good for both Shell and Ferrari.
 

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Forget all the "I like" bs. The oil in my Hellcat will be routinely analyzed by Terry Dyson @ Dyson Analysis. Use science not opinion.

Question....
Just how often do you intend to change and analyze your oil, every 500 miles, every 1000mi, 3000, 5000??
Do you realize how long it takes for an engine to junk itself once it starts to shred bearings??
Friend of mine used to work in a shop, had a client that insisted on oil analysis every oil change.
I was there one day when an analysis paper came back.

He opens the envelope, says "Hmmmm?? Excessive copper showing sample, possibly from engine bearings."

I said, "Oh, which truck?"

"That one, sitting in the street, with the rod hanging out the side of the block............"

According to the oil sample the failure was already in progress at the time of the oil change and sample, but it took long enough for the sample results to come back that the truck had already gone several hundred miles and the engine had finished consuming itself.
Previous samples held on file showed no excess bearing material.

Oil analysis is fine, but it's obviously lacking in a few areas.
 

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Well that didn't take long; cars not even in private hands yet and we have an oil thread;)

Ok, you say you're an engineer as well am I. So you know there are oil standards; this means a bunch of us anal retentive types/engineers determine what the criteria is to meet a rating. Sure some oils may be better by thousands of a point or even a percentage here or there, but key is does it meet the full requirements. If it does then run it and don't sweat it.

I run magical unicorn jizz in all my cars, but fur a good oily read try this:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/July-1-2014.php


Oh and absolutely agree with your low mile break in. Though some respect and others don't the M cars still get their 1,200 mile break in service and the cars come with break in requirements. This to me and as you stated should be a must for any performance car or any car you plan to keep for years and years!

Cheers!
 

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Question....
Just how often do you intend to change and analyze your oil, every 500 miles, every 1000mi, 3000, 5000??
Do you realize how long it takes for an engine to junk itself once it starts to shred bearings??
Friend of mine used to work in a shop, had a client that insisted on oil analysis every oil change.
I was there one day when an analysis paper came back.

He opens the envelope, says "Hmmmm?? Excessive copper showing sample, possibly from engine bearings."

I said, "Oh, which truck?"

"That one, sitting in the street, with the rod hanging out the side of the block............"

According to the oil sample the failure was already in progress at the time of the oil change and sample, but it took long enough for the sample results to come back that the truck had already gone several hundred miles and the engine had finished consuming itself.
Previous samples held on file showed no excess bearing material.

Oil analysis is fine, but it's obviously lacking in a few areas.
Dude really? Oil's not magic juice it's like you're implying this was oil related. Go back to my last post. What uoa does is tell you oil performance. Is it holding up even in an engine showing no problems.

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Dude really? Oil's not magic juice it's like you're implying this was oil related. Go back to my last post. What uoa does is tell you oil performance. Is it holding up even in an engine showing no problems.

Dude Really??

(and then I typed a whole bunch of stuff and realized I was probably wasting my breath)

So........what really needs to be said:

CHILL DUDE.
This is entertainment and a learning atmosphere, nothing here is absolute and everyone has an
opinion as well as an a&*hole and a belly button.
Calm down man, if you don't like what I say change the channel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well that didn't take long; cars not even in private hands yet and we have an oil thread;)

Ok, you say you're an engineer as well am I. So you know there are oil standards; this means a bunch of us anal retentive types/engineers determine what the criteria is to meet a rating. Sure some oils may be better by thousands of a point or even a percentage here or there, but key is does it meet the full requirements. If it does then run it and don't sweat it.

I run magical unicorn jizz in all my cars, but fur a good oily read try this:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/July-1-2014.php


Oh and absolutely agree with your low mile break in. Though some respect and others don't the M cars still get their 1,200 mile break in service and the cars come with break in requirements. This to me and as you stated should be a must for any performance car or any car you plan to keep for years and years!

Cheers!
What I was really wanting to know, is that I can take it to the dealer and have them do it all, and have confidence in the product that they're using. I'd prefer to have a dealer-generated paper trail for all of the anal maintenance that I have done (way before it's due), and I just wanted to make sure that I was getting my money's worth.
 
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What I was really wanting to know, is that I can take it to the dealer and have them do it all, and have confidence in the product that they're using. I'd prefer to have a dealer-generated paper trail for all of the anal maintenance that I have done (way before it's due), and I just wanted to make sure that I was getting my money's worth.
When I first bought my 2012 SRT8 392, I did so knowing that I would keep the car as part of my collection in perpetuity. As with all the horses in my stable, my general rule of thumb is to perform all the maintenance myself, and do so well in advance of the manufacturer's recommendation.

I had my car built to order on June 7th, 2011, the very first day that the order banks were open for 2012 Challengers. It was delivered to me on August 19th, right in the middle of Chrysler's transition in engine oil specification for the 392. My car's oil filler cap read 5w40 as did the owner's manual.

As per my aforementioned vehicle maintenance habits, I decided to drain the factory fill at 1000 miles, so as to get any break-in metal fragments out of the oil system nice and early. I decided to use Amsoil's 5w40 along with one of their high performance filters for the first change. I had used both in the past on other vehicles, and found them to be of extremely high quality, a sentiment which has been backed up by virtually every major independent oil comparison test I've come across that Amsoil was included in. I put the car up on my pair of Race Ramps in my garage and performed the oil change without fanfare.

Since my SRT is not my daily car, but rather a Sunday driver (as are all of my collection cars) it wasn't until the weekend after I performed the oil change that the wife and I hopped in the car and drove out to Malibu to have a nice dinner. And that's when I noticed it. A subtle but distinct change in the sound of the engine. When we got to the restaurant, I pulled into the parking lot and decided to quickly pop the hood before going in for dinner. My ears had not deceived me. There was A LOT of lifter noise present where there was none during the first 1000 miles I put on the car with the factory fill. The noise wasn't unusual or alarming, but I was perplexed as to why I was hearing what I was hearing. A call to Amsoil yielded an answer that put any anxiety I had to bed. I can't remember exactly what the Amsoil technician's explanation was now, but at the time I was assuaged by what he had to say and continued to run the Amsoil in the car.

Flash forward six months, and roughly 1500 miles on the odometer (I told you it was a Sunday driver!) to my next oil change window. Before doing anything, I decided to call Chrysler to see what kind of oil was used for the factory fill, figuring that I would revert back to that and see if there was a change in the lifter noise. To my surprise, I was told by the Chrysler rep that not only had Chrysler switched from (as best as I can recall) Mobil 1 that my car had been filled with when it was built to Pennzoil, but that THE OIL SPEC ITSELF HAD CHANGED, and that Chrysler was now recommending 0w40 weight instead of 5w40 for all SRT vehicles. I found this to be unusual, as I had never heard of a manufacturer changing an oil spec when no changes had been made to an engine.

Prompted to find out more, I did some reading on Pennzoil's website and around the web, and learned that Pennzoil had apparently worked with a team of SRT engineers to formulate the 0w40 that was now the suggested oil for the 392, and had in fact collaborated so closely that the SRT logo was actually featured on the bottles. There were extensive quotes by SRT engineers on the Pennzoil website regarding all this, but it still seemed kind of odd to me, so I decided to dig further here on CT and on some other Mopar specific sites and blogs. In contrast to all the talk from SRT and Pennzoil, the enthusiasts' consensus was that this was all marketing hype, and had more to do with Fiat, which has always had a close relationship with Shell (which owns Pennzoil), having bought Chrysler.

After doing all of this reading, I decided to give the Pennzoil a try, as I figured even if this was all marketing BS, Chrysler certainly wouldn't approve of and recommend a bad oil, or one that didn't exceed their own spec. I was actually fairly enthusiastic to try it out, as I am a major Formula 1 racing nut, and Shell has been the supplier to my favorite team, Ferrari, for decades. I favor Shell gas for the same reason, as well as the fact that their gas is not only Top Tier, but also contains three times the detergents that they are required to add to their fuel.

After a somewhat difficult search to find seven quarts of the Pennzoil 0w40 SRT oil (Chrysler dealers had actually yet to start receiving it, and Autozone, O'Reilly's, etc. didn't have stock yet) I bought a case off of the Pennzoil website, and purchased Mopar's new SRT filter (the now ubiquitous white filter with the SRT logo) as well.

Up on the race ramps my girl went, and I performed the change. This time, I went for a drive right after I finished the change. Right away I noticed that the lifter chatter was GONE. The engine also felt very smooth and the power delivery was somewhat more "velvety." I was immediately impressed.

Now in no way am I disparaging Amsoil, but I find the combination of P'zoil 0w40 and the Mopar SRT filter to be a winning combination for 392 equipped cars. I am VERY satisfied with its performance. I also find a small bit of security in knowing that if anything were to ever happen to my engine (forces of the universe please ignore that I said that) Chrysler couldn't try to deny warranty repair based on incorrect fluid/maintenance practices, as I am using exactly what their engineers specified. Oh, and then there is that Ferrari Formula 1 connection... :clap:



- Rob


P.S. Here's a link to Pennzoil's 0w40 SRT oil webpage: New Pennzoil UltraTM 0W-40 Designed For All SRT Vehicles
 
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Go to Bob is The Oil Guy forums. Search the oil analysis forums to see real understanding of Platinum in service. Consensus is this is a good product. Still, since this is a new car, new engine and will be my one and only hot rod I will test the factory fill.
 

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Its Even Worse

Used to work for a Division of Fiat.....

Fiat has money invested in Pennzoil and they pimp the hell out of it..........$6000 for an oil change on an Enzo! WTF

I have been using Mobile 1 since it was introduced and I love it. I have also used the Valvoline full synthetic and Royal Purple and they work great too......Its all the same science just a brand preference!
 
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