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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Okay. I know that a majority of the users on this forum are successful members of society, who contribute, have jobs, families (maybe), and a decent enough standing. My question to you, first, is this: What is your opinion on the rising price of crude, and the effect it is having on the global economy? i.e Food, clothing, transportation of goods?

The second opinion I'd like to ask of you is this: We all need cars to get to and fro. However, with gas the way it is, how are we supposed to effectivley get to work, without spending half the check on gas? Which leads me to the third question: Fuel Economic cars. They're ugly. They're not fun, with a few exceptions. In a moment, I will update my post with said vehicles, and post the fourth question (Amusing electric storm is ocuring, please hold.)

Along with the vehicles mentioned, there, I have also found several other innovations. Among these, are as follows: Direct Injection, Active Fuel Management, and Lithium Ion batteries.

I want to show you all my next vehicle:



Now, many of you are probably going "What? Is he insane? That is a muscle car with a huge gas sucking V8!" Which, is true. Except for 'gas sucking' part. This highlights the first part of my point. Even though V8's are quickly becoming unpopular for gas reasons, many automotive companies are implementing some version of controlled cylinder deactivation. Such as the 5.7 HEMI found in the Challenger. When at cruising speeds, such as on the highway, four cylinders shut down, allowing less gas to be consumed, while retaining power on demand. Another vehicle this is in use in, which I drive daily at the moment, is my 2007 Monte Carlo SS. It's a FWD V8, which sounds silly. But. I achieve 22 miles per gallon, which is decent for me.

Now, while 22 mpg doesn't sound exactly wonderful, for a 3800 pound vehicle, with a large V8, it's not that bad. And considering many people I know won't buy anything BUT a V8, I see this as a useful solution for those of us who want performance AND gas mileage. Which brings me to question 3 -

For you Euro-people, how do you view the large American engines, if there are any of you here? Below is my compilation of the most recent fuel-savers, from various companies

Alternative Fuel, and Us

I will plainly state the main idea for this thread\paper, here and now. It is to review, define, and generally create a writeup of the new fuel types, different technologies coming in to play, and various ways in which we can improve mileage, keep power, and be kinder to the enviroment, without losing performance. I will start out with a small guide to the new forms of fuel, and types of power plants for vehicles

E85: E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel engines are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. The primary differences from non-FFVs is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system, the use of fuel pumps capable of operating with electrically conductive (ethanol) instead of non-conducting dielectric (gasoline) fuel, specially-coated wear-resistant engine parts, fuel injection control systems having a wider range of pulse widths (for injecting approximately 40% more fuel), the selection of stainless steel fuel lines (sometimes lined with plastic), the selection of stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks, and, in some cases, the use of acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used.

Flex Fuel: A flexible-fuel vehicle (FFV) or dual-fuel vehicle (also sometimes called only flex-fuel) is an automobile that can typically use different sources of fuel, either mixed in the same tank or with separate tanks and fuel systems for each fuel. A common example is a vehicle that can accept gasoline mixed with varying levels of bioethanol (gasohol). Some cars carry a natural gas tank making it possible switch back and forth from regular gasoline to natural gas.

Fuel Cell: A fuel cell is an electrochemical energy conversion device. It produces electricity from various external quantities of fuel (on the anode side) and oxidant (on the cathode side). These react in the presence of an electrolyte. Generally, the reactants flow in and reaction products flow out while the electrolyte remains in the cell. Fuel cells can operate virtually continuously as long as the necessary flows are maintained.

Electric Car: Electric cars, such as the Chevrolet Volt, and the Tesla Roadster, are vehicles which can be plugged in to a standard 120v house outlet, to allow a small battery to charge. These vehicles can run various distances with just the electricity (For the Volt; about 40-45 miles on just electricity), while also running on gas when required (Some highway travel).


What this means to us? Well..

What does all this mean to the up and coming enviroment friendly car industry? It means smaller engines, better emissions ratings, and over-all, more fuel efficient vehicles. I've found a few examples of each company making a move to take advantage of this newest trend in vehicle technology. Let us start, with Ford.

Ford has recently released news on a new type of engine it is currently working on, The Ford Eco-Boost, which features factory turbocharging, and direct-fuel-injection. The first public example of this type of technology being implemented can be seen in the 2008 MKZ. It is a six cylinder, sporting a twin-turbocharged engine, with direct-injection, making roughly 320 horses. For a smaller emissions foot print, this is amazing. A V6 making the power of a V8, with better fuel mileage! However.. This claimed toating of 'better milleage' has yet to be seen, and it is estimated only a one or two MPG gain will be seen with this new technology. However, over time, all things improve, and so, I expect, will this. ||Link to article where information was taken - TheMustangNews.com - Ford's New EcoBoost Direct Injection Engines ||



And then, we have Chevrolet. Chevrolet, while promoting fuel cells, has developed the widely popular Chevrolet Volt. This is one of the industries first "Electric Cars" available to the common person, and it can travel up to 45 miles on just it's battery. While it does run on gas, it is capable of running on both E85, and normal fuel, making it worthy of a "Flex Fuel" title. What is most interesting about this vehicle, is the fact that it only takes 6.5 hours to charge, and will serve you on battery alone, for those 40-miles, easily making your daily commute if you work close by. It is powered by a 3-cylinder, 1 litre engine, with a small turbocharger allowing it to reach speeds of 120mph for limited periods of time. On the highway, it boasts between 120-200 miles per gallon, running on E85 and it's small battery. After passing the 40-mile mark on the battery, It uses the combustion engine to generate electricity for the electric motors propelling the car when needed. On a personal note, I have to say that Chevrolet has made the single most appealing "Alternative Fuel" vehicle I have seen.



Following with Dodge (Including Mercedes and Chrsyler) we have a few different things. First off, we have the new Mercedes BluTec, which will be offered both as diesel, and later on, as pure-electric. Specific to Dodge, we have the cylinder de-activation, akin to what Chevrolet and Ford also have.

The GL320 shown to the left (Or above), will be one of the first vehicles outfitted with the Bluetec system.

Moving right along to Japan and the Asian Market, we have seen quite a few of these highly-efficient designs.

Starting with Mitsubishi: It seems that in the asian market, small, electric cars are the thing. This brings me to the Mitsubishi iMiEV Electric Car. Featuring a fully electric setup, this car has no combustion engine. As is common, the foreign market has taken an interesting look at this new type of vehicle. The iMiEV features two very interesting things: Two small wind turbines in the front grill, along with two small solar panels to charge the Ion-Lithium batteries. Each front wheel has a motor specific to it, creating 26hp a piece, and the rear wheels have a single motor between them making 36 horsepower. This gives the vehicle the AWD classification, which seems to be a one-of-a-kind from Mitsubishi. Originally, using a 100 volt charger, you could charge the vehicle in roughly 17 hours to a full charge. But, as the vehicle developed, so too did the charging capabilities. With a 200 volt charger, an 85% charge can be obtained in just under 40 minutes.

 

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I'm pretty sure the Challenger is going to be my last gas guzzler, unless I need a larger truck. I was not around for the first muscle car era and there is no way Im missing out on this one.

IMO, out politicians are doing a disservice to this county by pushing E-85 and not allowing us to use our abundant resources to sustain us, instead of enslaving us to the middle east. The price of corn has risen as a direct result of legislation pushing E-85. Using sugar cane, you can produce 8X the amount of fuel that corn can, but since the farming community has come to expect subsidies, why would we let them down now? (Case in point, one of my co-workers Grandfather has become rich almost overnight do to the reutilization of corn for fuel. He gets paid when he plants crops and when he does'nt plant crops..)

Electric vehicles, like the Chevy Volt, are the magic bullet, right? Wrong... Most people think "Hey plug it in, drive it, no emissions, great!" Unfortunately, those same people do not think were the electricity comes from, power plants, which mainly use coal, one of the dirtiest forms of power around.

Hybrids, a good compromise between fuel and electricity? Not so fast. Battery life is short, something like 5 years and they are expensive and when they expire, then what? Just throw them away?? The good news is you get to pay thousands more for an electric vehicle that you would for a similarly equipped gas vehicle.

Yet the oil we have in the OUR ground could last us for many, many years while alternative fuels/sources are perfected, but we cant get to them. Every other county uses its natural resources, we leave ours for fear of killing the environment..

Rant OFF!
 

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I am for off shore drilling, Alaska drilling etc... We are way more responsible today with the enviroment than we were in the 70's/80's, and I think we can do it safely. I am tired of having to answer to oil controlling countries who hates us then use the money for terrorism and hurting their own people also.
When they were jumping with joy when the U.S. economy was taking a beating,oil going up, then they wouldn't increase the amount of barrels, they forgot when we hurt, the rest of world suffers. So now Saudi and OPEC are going to bring the price down and increase output... There's more to it (IMO), but fingers hurt... Got to run and drive my Gas Guzzling 2008 Challenger...
 

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Thanks for an excellent communication! Very concise presentation of many ideas that are usually delivered independent of each other.

I suppose it's like anything else, people who use good common sense will do the right thing and others will do whatever serves their purpose of the moment (usually their pocketbook).

As a muscle car fan, I don't feel the least bit guilty about driving my first generation muscle and won't feel guilty about driving a new one. There are certainly hundreds of ways we can conserve and preserve resources every day. To say the people driving muscle cars are a key detriment to efficient fuel practices is silliness. These are the same folks who think it's smart to order supersize fries with a large diet coke so they can save calories.

By the way, I was around during the first muscle car era and lived through the '70s gas lines! We sat on line at gas stations, listening to Chicago and the Eagles on the radio and put our lunch money into the big Mopar engines so we could cruise to school in style. But the rest of the time we parked our rides to save gas.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful post!
 

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I have no problem putting gas into either of my muscle cars. They were daily drivers when new, but now they are are for fun. My daily driver is a 2007 Chevy Aveo 5 speed.
It gets me back and forth comfortably and does not use a lot of gas. I don't need a lot of comfort and horsepower to sit in stop and go traffic to work and back. It was also the cheapest car to buy new at $10,195. I think we have been let off easy for years on the price of gas. I will pay what it costs. I will complain about it. I won't buy it if I cannot afford it. I will be really upset if I have to sit in line again to buy it like L.A. in 1970. It would be even worse if I was told the station had none left. It used to be a big consideration living in California in the 70's if you were driving a muscle car and did not know where your next tank of gas would come from.
 

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Re: Gas lines

I will be really upset if I have to sit in line again to buy it like L.A. in 1970. It would be even worse if I was told the station had noe left. It used to be a big consideration living in California in the 70's if you were driving a muscle car and did not know where your next tank of gas would come from.
And just think, back then we didn't have cell phones to call each other when we found a place that had gas and was open! or the internet to check gasbuddy.com first to see where the cheapest gas was...wow! I sound old talking about how it was back in the day. :)

That's okay, I like it now better.
 

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It used to be a big consideration living in California in the 70's if you were driving a muscle car and did not know where your next tank of gas would come from.
Right On,brother ! I've been thinking that this "scenario" might/could be happening soon, if not already.I feel like very,very bad and desolete times are approaching{which could be a plan by [some of] the Elite; which I withold for now on follow up} In fact, just last night ,I heard on the news about a guy "running" from police who were chasing him about a 'theft of gasoline' call ! The video shows this fuel bandit exiting [Yes, running] his vehicle. The video ended without seeing ...the End ... but I presume he was caught since the "Gas Thief" apparently left his 5 year boy in said vehicle !:icon_redface:!! Ok, now about CAFE,Congress and the President-While Congress has upt the MPG, have they provided the technology to do this ? If they put out numbers then they must lend a hand !!! Yes, I also believe 'big old oil money' is at & still working; perhaps working to enrich their tax-exempt foundations:grim: as well as broaden the span of the rich or super rich from people less affluent. For example : to millionares $4-5 per gallon is not hurting them compared to people making $40,000 or less per year ! I am upset with Ragamuffin though for not at least trying to contact this seemingly real smart guy ,whom whenever and whenever [long ago] deveoloped unbelievable MPG engineering/technology. I knew I'd posted here about this and is somewhere in the Challengertalk.com Archives ,but it was awhile back, so it may be unattainable with present Challengertalk.com technology. So I Googled ' 700mpg' and { I found myself:icon_redface:; I mean } I found a Challengertalk.com post :woot:[ on page 4 of the search results]:program: ...For your convenience : http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/18836-post9.html . WARNING - This link is ok but just in case those that did a Google search, I would suggest NOT,repeat Not clicking any others except Challengertalk.com's since any others may have virus and/or other bad malicious-type wares !!! Yes, I speak from past ....
 

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I will be really upset if I have to sit in line again to buy it like L.A. in 1970. It would be even worse if I was told the station had none left. It used to be a big consideration living in California in the 70's if you were driving a muscle car and did not know where your next tank of gas would come from.
That was 1973 to be exact... when I was 17; I worked as a night manager at a high-volume Mobil Station. The owner had higher allocations than most service stations in the area -- needless to say, my parents and I never had to wait in a gas line. During this time I had a '65 442 Olds, and sold it to buy a '69 Camaro SS L78 -- my dad had his 1969 Dodge Charger.

I remember this time very well; gas prices sky rocketed from $.35 to $.75 and eventually went over $1.00 per gallon. There was mass hysteria, gas lines were 1 to 3 hours and up to 1/4 mile long. As a night manager, I had 3 to 4 guys working the pumps, I directed traffic, monitored odd even plates, and if people had 1/2 tank or more, I would kick them out of the line... and to assure we had enough gas for the morning shift, the owner instructed me to shut the pumps off no later than 8:00pm... in essence, faking the tanks went dry. Otherwise, we would be pumping gas all night long.

This wasn't an easy task because we had regular customers mixed with just about anyone that would jump into a line if they saw one... knowing there was gas.

I've seen people at their worst during this time...

One night we had a regular customer that must have been in line for 1.5 hours and when he finally reached the pumps, I flipped the mains. I was in the back when I heard the commotion. This guy hopped out of his car and started beating the pump with his fist... cracked the top plastic housing, his face was bright red and he was yelling to the top of his voice, saying: "I'm a salesman and I need gas to make a living."

Damn, that was my first lesson in managing conflict.. I was only 17. I knew I couldn't go in the back and flip the pumps back on with all the onlookers, and a gas line that went clear down the road.

I finally calmed this guy down and assured him we were getting a new load at 2am, and if he came back first thing in the morning, the morning shift would get him to the front of the line so he could start his day...

Remember, that was a day when there was a gas station on every corner ... I can't imagine what it would be like if the same happened today.

:(

.
 

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Hybrids, a good compromise between fuel and electricity? Not so fast. Battery life is short, something like 5 years and they are expensive and when they expire, then what? Just throw them away?? The good news is you get to pay thousands more for an electric vehicle that you would for a similarly equipped gas vehicle.


Rant OFF!
and to add a bit on the batteries. where do people think all the nickel and cadium, etc. that batteries are made of, come from?? thats right, they come from filthy mines. nickel is one of the worst ones, right up there with coal.

and even hydrogen fuel cell technology. sure the hydrogen burns clean. but making hydrogen sure isnt. they have to heat the heck out of natural gas, and put it through a catalyst. which is just a big drain on a different natural resource.

also, there is electrolysis with water. but wait, you need incredible amounts of power to do this. and where do we get power?? we burn more gas in a boiler to make steam, that can turn power generating turbines.

at this moment in time, there is nothing cleaner, cheaper, or easier to get than oil. when you look at the big picture. oil is not going anywhere, anytime soon.
 

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Hybrids, a good compromise between fuel and electricity? Not so fast. Battery life is short, something like 5 years and they are expensive and when they expire, then what? Just throw them away??
That's just not true. First of all, the batteries are expected to last the life of the vehicle. Secondly, the batteries have a warranty for a minimum of 8 years, so in your fabricated scenario of 5 year failure it wouldn't cost the consumer anything anyways. Finally, hybrid batteries are recycled by the manufacturers. This has been the case for the 200 batteries that have failed out of the 100,000 hybrids sold by Honda since 1999.

I'm not giving any opinions on hybrids here, I just wanted to get the facts straight.
 

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There was a story in NY Newsday last week about a company in CA. that created refinable crude from sea algae, they said they will be starting production in about 3 to 4 years I believe.
 

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Great thread !!!! We have a 07 Charger with the 3.5L and are averaging 24 in the city, and get 30 highway. Not bad at all !!!!

Gas is expensive, and much like everybody else we've felt the pinch. Both the wife and I are riding our motorcycles to work and back when ever possible. My road king gets 55 MPG, her street bob almost 60. In other words, half the cost of the car !!!!

If somebody can find the name of that comapny, I want to buy stock in it if its public, cause they're going to skyrocket!! Going to be another Potash ( POT ) !!!
 

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09R/T_Semper: I also am concerned about fuel economy, and I came to the same decision as you - an R/T with MDS. It's not ideal, but very close. I wish the Hemi engines had aluminum blocks, though. The V6 version is around 200lbs lighter!

I considered the V6, but I decided against it for a few reasons (besides just wanting the R/T and Hemi badges and all that they stand for). First of all, the V6 is only rated at 2mpg better. Along with that, I have read that the engineers don't think the MDS shows its full potential in EPA testing - which means that in the real world the fuel economy of the V8 might be better than what it is rated at. (This concerns the new engine, the one rated at 370hp. Apparently the MDS has been tuned to operate even more frequently). Finally, the kicker - the V6 only has a four speed automatic. If it had a 5 speed I would be torn, but for now the decision is easy. Under light driving, the R/T will have 4 cylinders controlled by a 5 speed transmission, as opposed to the SE's full-time 6 cylinders controlled by 4 speeds. Thinking of it that way, the V8 is almost better. Certainly the better all-arounder.

However I hear they are working on a new generation of V6 called the Phoenix. It should be even lighter, more powerful, and more fuel efficient... and if it's paired with a 5 speed auto (or even a six speed auto!), that would be ideal for me. For now I'll "make do" with my Hemi. :)
 

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Our SXT is decked, has about everything except Nav, therefore costing about the same as the HEMI R/T with NO options on it. SHe wouldnt leather, the roof, heated seats, etc etc etc

Guess who won?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
 

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Great thread !!!! We have a 07 Charger with the 3.5L and are averaging 24 in the city, and get 30 highway. Not bad at all !!!!

Gas is expensive, and much like everybody else we've felt the pinch. Both the wife and I are riding our motorcycles to work and back when ever possible. My road king gets 55 MPG, her street bob almost 60. In other words, half the cost of the car !!!!

If somebody can find the name of that comapny, I want to buy stock in it if its public, cause they're going to skyrocket!! Going to be another Potash ( POT ) !!!
DANG, Potash up $80 in 4 months! More of what your looking at please!!!:woot:
 
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