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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've done some data logging with my blower setup and was surprised to see at wot my actual spark was only 12 degrees. I didn't know if that is total advance counting what i would think is initial timing or would that be 12 degrees total. Seems very low to me. Car just doesn't seem to pull as much as i'd like. Even at say 10 degrees initial plus 12 at wot is only 22. Any input would be greatly appreciated. S/C is a maggie w/ 6psi. and cold air. No other mods. I love the s/c so this isn't a post knocking the maggie. Just wanting to know what my engines doing.
 

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Ok. FYI that tune is not designed to be used with a Cold Air Intake. With your intake you may be running a little on the lean side which might be having the ecu pull timing because it is sensing some knock. If you are going to run the intake you will definitely need to get on a dyno and have a custom tune done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok. FYI that tune is not designed to be used with a Cold Air Intake. With your intake you may be running a little on the lean side which might be having the ecu pull timing because it is sensing some knock. If you are going to run the intake you will definitely need to get on a dyno and have a custom tune done.
Thank you for responding Jon. I will put factory air box back on and see if it changes. I just put on the cold air seeing if i had any improvement. I also datalogged stknock and ltknock and it didn't show any timing at all being pulled. With stock air box do you know what kind of 'actual spark' reading i should be seeing at wot? Thanks again for your help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Stick car or auto? What were the ambient temps when you logged your timing?

HemiSam

Automatic trans. 90 degree ambient. once i'm at wot timing stays at 12 to 12 1/2 degrees. no spark being pulled that i'm seeing even w/ cold air intake. Do you know if that's about right? . I know with boost or nos u need to drop timing but just trying to figure it out. I will put factory intake box and filter back in just to see if i get a different reading but stknock and ltknock is 0 even with cold air. I'm data logging late at night cause i'm in Texas as well and its about midnight before temps are at 90. I didn't figure 110 temp in day was worth even trying to tune to. Thanks HemiSam for any input.
 

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No sweat. Happy to help where I can.

What I believe you'll see is that timing will drop at the same rpm as the gears rise. That's certainly the case in a stick car. So let's say at 5Krpm or 6Krpm (pick one) in 2nd, odds are you'll see less timing in 4th. so the point is it depends on what gear you're in and where you are in the rpm band.

Throw out a bit more data and I'll see if I can't chime in. If I don't know, I'll tell ya so.

HemiSam
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
No sweat. Happy to help where I can.

What I believe you'll see is that timing will drop at the same rpm as the gears rise. That's certainly the case in a stick car. So let's say at 5Krpm or 6Krpm (pick one) in 2nd, odds are you'll see less timing in 4th. so the point is it depends on what gear you're in and where you are in the rpm band.

Throw out a bit more data and I'll see if I can't chime in. If I don't know, I'll tell ya so.

HemiSam

I just done some more logging and same timing results. From 1st gear thru 5th a wot timing stays consistenly at 11 to 12. I logged base spark and its reading 16 at wot but my understanding is thats not actual spark. No st or lt knock being pulled. Timing goes up to 33 while at no or part throttle. I logged quite a bit of info if u need specifics i can post it back to u. I know this is off base on the timing question but my dataviewer stops my speed reading at 127.5.. That sux cause i hit 182.1 tonite and thought i would see it on the dataviewer. I did have my evic top speed set tho and snapped a bunch of photos for my own thrills! My new wallpaper for phone and computer screen! Thanks in advance HemiSam for your time in helping me .
 

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That's weird on the mph? What PID you logging? I use the 64X.

Interesting on the timing. ACT SPK (actual spark) is what you should be logging. I'm accustomed to seeing it drop as the gears rise, but again I'm used to looking at data on a stick car.

I'm wondering about two things. 1) how high are your IAT's? You won't see aggressive timing in relatively high IAT's for good reason. 2) how's your AFR looking? I'm assuming you're running a stock block and 93 OCT fuel. If that's the case, you don't need much more timing anyway. You certainly need the AFR to be right (low 11's, even high 10's) and I'd watch out for part throttle boost. Drive around PTB on a stock block.

HemiSam
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
That's weird on the mph? What PID you logging? I use the 64X.

Interesting on the timing. ACT SPK (actual spark) is what you should be logging. I'm accustomed to seeing it drop as the gears rise, but again I'm used to looking at data on a stick car.

I'm wondering about two things. 1) how high are your IAT's? You won't see aggressive timing in relatively high IAT's for good reason. 2) how's your AFR looking? I'm assuming you're running a stock block and 93 OCT fuel. If that's the case, you don't need much more timing anyway. You certainly need the AFR to be right (low 11's, even high 10's) and I'd watch out for part throttle boost. Drive around PTB on a stock block.

HemiSam

My IAT temps were 118.4 min./170.6 maximum..The 170.6 temp. was on the 180mph run. It reached that temp. at top of 4th gear and thru 5th. I shut it down at 5400rpm in 5th. I done this at 10pm tonite and ambient was still 97degrees. I don't have a wideband afr guage so no data there for you. I set up the pids on predator that Johan said he likes to see for tuning.(from Diablo site)..Are you sayin i should have that wideband afr guage to keep an eye on ptboost to be sure to not be on the lean side? My bottem end is all stock and 93 octane is correct. I'm not sure about the 64x your referring to. I did do a search just now and saw on Diablos site where Speedy run into the same problem on the 127.5 mph....Exact speed my dataviewer stops at. But didn't show how he solved his problem that i found as of yet. Thanks Again HemiSam
 

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You definitely need a wideband installed. Innovate's LC-1 is what I use and I have it hooked up to an Aeroforce Interceptor guage that also hooks up to the OBD2 port so you can see AFR and timing (even your boost) on one gauge. You having a stock bottom, ABSOLUTELY get the wideband. The part throttle boost is very difficult to tune for, so you need to drive around it to ensure your girl is happy and safe.

If you rely on a remote tuner, and he needs to see AFR along with your other PID's, then I'd look into getting a Trinity that allows you to datalog AFR along with the other PID's. That's a nice to have, not a must have though. The wideband is not an option, IMO.

When you go to datalog and if you're using a laptop along with the Predator, you should see a vehicle speed pic that reads something like 64X. It's a MPH reading and might be of help to you. It's what I use and I don't have that 127.5 issue.

Your IAT's are high like mine here in TX. You could be having timing pulled as a result. All the same, I don't see that timing as unreasonably low given you're not running race fuel and you've got a stock bottom.

HemiSam
 

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Sam and I agree on most points here. 12 to 12.5 degrees of timing with a blower on a stock bottom end is about right from what I've seen. The stock motor is 10.3:1 compression so you can't run as much timing without the higher risk of knock which is bad. If you fuel your car with the local 93 octane you'll run all the time and go to a good tuner, they might can squeeze a degree or so more out of it, but I'm not sure it would be worth it.

You have remember the supercharger changes the compression in the motor vs. a NA car where you can run 18-22 degrees of timing.

Also, actual spark cyl 1 is the timing pid you want to be looking at. That's the timing in the motor after all the algorithms do their adjustments to the base timing pid. In other words, actual spark cyl 1 is the actual timing.

AFR is important. On a stock block I'd like to see 11.2 - 11.4 at WOT. I personally wouldn't want anything in the 10s, although there is a cat protection mode that ECUs will go in to that dumps more fuel to keep the cats cool if they go above a certain temp and could be what you're seeing at times when 10s show up. I'm not sure on that one.

If you want to e-mail me your logs I can take a look and tell ya what I see.

FYI, I put a CAI on my Maggie and it did lean it out and I needed a tune adjustment. Since these cars don't have a MAF sensor they can not adjust to increased air flow on the fly...it has to be programmed in.

Get a AFR gauge installed, put your CAI back on and see how it looks. TooFart put a CAI on his stock Maggie setup and was good to go, but check yours to be sure.

Finally, I fixed the MPH problem by selecting the MPHX64 pid in DataViewer. That pid is located in the miscellaneous section.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Sam and I agree on most points here. 12 to 12.5 degrees of timing with a blower on a stock bottom end is about right from what I've seen. The stock motor is 10.3:1 compression so you can't run as much timing without the higher risk of knock which is bad. If you fuel your car with the local 93 octane you'll run all the time and go to a good tuner, they might can squeeze a degree or so more out of it, but I'm not sure it would be worth it.

You have remember the supercharger changes the compression in the motor vs. a NA car where you can run 18-22 degrees of timing.

Also, actual spark cyl 1 is the timing pid you want to be looking at. That's the timing in the motor after all the algorithms do their adjustments to the base timing pid. In other words, actual spark cyl 1 is the actual timing.

AFR is important. On a stock block I'd like to see 11.2 - 11.4 at WOT. I personally wouldn't want anything in the 10s, although there is a cat protection mode that ECUs will go in to that dumps more fuel to keep the cats cool if they go above a certain temp and could be what you're seeing at times when 10s show up. I'm not sure on that one.

If you want to e-mail me your logs I can take a look and tell ya what I see.

FYI, I put a CAI on my Maggie and it did lean it out and I needed a tune adjustment. Since these cars don't have a MAF sensor they can not adjust to increased air flow on the fly...it has to be programmed in.

Get a AFR gauge installed, put your CAI back on and see how it looks. TooFart put a CAI on his stock Maggie setup and was good to go, but check yours to be sure.

Finally, I fixed the MPH problem by selecting the MPHX64 pid in DataViewer. That pid is located in the miscellaneous section.

I will send you my files on the datalogging if you don't mind seeing what you think. As far as the dataviewer problem i'm having with the 127.5mph, I may be logging wrong. I'm recording with the predator and then unhooking it and bringing it to my laptop and downloading the file and viewing it that way. But when i playback the log file it limits the vehicle speed at 127.5 even tho rpms and all other pids are working. I didn't see anything about the mphx64 anywhere. Thanks HemiSam and Speedy. Great Help Guys I appreciate it very much
 

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On my auto, the timing stays dead on (12.0deg) while at wot at all rpm ranges, even during the shifts. From the green to the finish line. I run 104oct all the time. Never pulls timing. Ahh its 7 bucks a gallon though. As said ^^^^^ use x 64mph
FT
 
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