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Yeah.... About as clear as mud! :)

Would be interesting to hear what Dodge says on the subject. Always best to go to the source! :)
 

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Yeah.... About as clear as mud! :)

Would be interesting to hear what Dodge says on the subject. Always best to go to the source! :)


There is no debate , nothing to question , where are you lost ? Go outside , do what I said , then come back. If seeing is not believing, there is no helping you.


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There is no debate , nothing to question , where are you lost ? Go outside , do what I said , then come back. If seeing is not believing, there is no helping you.


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Well when there is a thread where several guys like @Slidd (typically gives solid, correct info) have said that the OEM wheels are hub-centric of course there should be a debate.

https://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f79/hub-centric-vs-lug-centric-637177

My own view of the difference between hub and lug centric aligns with this post I found. I keep seeing information that says hub centric means the wheel perfectly fits around the hub and bares the weight of the vehicle. But for that to be true the fit would need to be more of a press-fit. Also some manufacturers use plastic hub rings to take up the gap between the wheel and hub, no way those rings are supporting the weight of the vehicle.

Then there are definitions like this one from summit racing that does not mention a "perfect" fit.
https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4634/~/what-does-hub-centric-mean?

I wonder if SAE has a more complete definition of what hub centric means...or if the definition changed over time as wheel/hub design evolved over time?
 

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There is no debate , nothing to question , where are you lost ? Go outside , do what I said , then come back. If seeing is not believing, there is no helping you.


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Sure there is a debate. It seems that most people believe Dodge wheels are hub-centric and a few believe they are lug-centric. Just becuase you say it's "fact" that they are lug-centric doesn't make it so.

Instead of going back and forth forever and getting nowhere, why not just ask the manufacturer and get the "real" answer? I'm certainly no "wheel" expert, so I would look to the manufacturer to give the correct answer here.

Personally, I believe that stock wheels are primarily hub-centric and aftermarket wheels can be hub-centric (if hub rings are used) or lug-centric (if hub rings are not - or cannot - be used). Basically, if a wheel uses the hub during mounting (and the hub and wheel center bore size match), then it's hub-centric. If a wheel doesn't use the hub, then it's lug-centric. But again, that is what *I* - someone who is not an "expert" on wheels, believes.

I would accept whatever Dodge says on the subject - they manufacturer the vehicle. However, I have a feeling that even if Dodge says their wheels are hub-centric, that you still wouldn't "accept" it...

I'll see if I can submit a question to Dodge and get their input. Otherwise, we will go back anf forth forever and get nowhere. :)
 

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I keep seeing information that says hub centric means the wheel perfectly fits around the hub and bares the weight of the vehicle. But for that to be true the fit would need to be more of a press-fit. Also some manufacturers use plastic hub rings to take up the gap between the wheel and hub, no way those rings are supporting the weight of the vehicle.
Okay, to muddy the waters a bit more, a hub centric wheel isn't necessarily supporting the vehicle weight through the hub, and definitely not by the hub alone. There's a very high clamping force created by each wheel stud, assuming that the mounting surfaces are clean and true. That's how lug centric wheels can function in the first place.

Where hub centric wheels really shine is that by having a tight fit (often a light press fit) the wheel end up centered, and consequently running true.
Of course, with a looser fit and a bolt circle that is off a bit, even a hub centric wheel can be made to run a bit out of round if one installs it "tire shop style", fully tightening one nut first.

Lastly (?), and which I also probably should've brought up much earlier, the minute discrepancies in the wheel studs' diameters does absolutely nothing to help accommodate a difference in bolt circle and the wheel's hole spacing.
There's more to it than if the studs fit through the holes when using conical lug nuts.

For obvious reasons, regardless of stud diameter, once the taper of the lug nut reaches the corresponding taper in the wheel, the stud will be forced to center in the hole. In other words, bend.
That the two tapered surfaces won't quite seat against each other as intended doesn't exactly help anything.

Those who insist on using mismatched wheels would be better off with a hub centric wheel and flat lug nuts with washers. With wheels made to or machined to accept that style of lug nut, of course.
 

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Someone please go out and take off a wheel and a center cap. Then tighten up your lugs , you will see the wheel center on the lugs and come of the hub. The hub is there to help center the wheel during mounting.
As far as the 5x114.3 , when I run those wheels I do use hub centric rings to help in keeping equal deflection of the studs.
When I go back to running my weld wheels , the center bore is a good bit larger(probably ~80mm or so) than the hubs on the car. They don’t even come close to sitting on the hub. When tightened by the correct procedure, they center themselves on the , you guessed it , lugs. Most if not all modern vehicles are lug centric. With the exception of some heavy duty trucks , where you will see , the wheels fit very tightly on the hub and have flat lugs , not conical.


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Well when there is a thread where several guys like @Slidd (typically gives solid, correct info) have said that the OEM wheels are hub-centric of course there should be a debate.

https://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f79/hub-centric-vs-lug-centric-637177

My own view of the difference between hub and lug centric aligns with this post I found. I keep seeing information that says hub centric means the wheel perfectly fits around the hub and bares the weight of the vehicle. But for that to be true the fit would need to be more of a press-fit. Also some manufacturers use plastic hub rings to take up the gap between the wheel and hub, no way those rings are supporting the weight of the vehicle.

Then there are definitions like this one from summit racing that does not mention a "perfect" fit.
https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4634/~/what-does-hub-centric-mean?

I wonder if SAE has a more complete definition of what hub centric means...or if the definition changed over time as wheel/hub design evolved over time?


I get it , none of you guys need to just believe what I’m saying. And skids is usually on point, but not infallible. To end the debate all anyone of us need to do is go change a wheel and pay attention to the hub.


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Discussion Starter #48
Wow.. Wasn't expecting all this.
I'd like to say something profound but I got nothin'
Except maybe this is a good example of "Ignorance is bliss."
Without all the helpful members here who took the time to help me out I probably would have just ordered something and believed their Guaranteed to fit promise and thought nothing more of it.
For my own piece of mind 5x155 bolt pattern is a must.
A bigger center bore with rings and properly torqued nuts is idk 99.99% safe?
I called several company's yesterday and was told the vision and torq thrust rims with the 5x115 pattern are being discontinued because their not selling. Makes me think about what if something happen to a rim a few yrs from now. Not being able to get a replacement would suck.

So I'm now looking for the best price on the Foose legends.
5x115 and 71.8 center bore. Near perfect fit!!!
I know several members here have them.
I'll post pics when installed.
Thanks for everyone's help.
 

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Most if not all modern vehicles are lug centric. With the exception of some heavy duty trucks , where you will see , the wheels fit very tightly on the hub and have flat lugs , not conical.
Actually, heavy trucks started using hub centric hubs and wheels relatively recently, and the flat nut and washer setup was used long before that.

Light duty dual rear wheel pickups also use that style of lug nut, and are hub centric.

I'll have to go out and see if I have anything (except for the '80 Peterbilt and its trailers) that isn't hub centric.
Well, if it has stock wheels on it, that is.
 

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I get it , none of you guys need to just believe what I’m saying. And skids is usually on point, but not infallible. To end the debate all anyone of us need to do is go change a wheel and pay attention to the hub.


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Believe me I know what you are saying and I total get where you are coming from. I have recently had my wheels off both my challenger and liberty (even remember my infiniti with aftermarket wheels with hub rings), but come to think of it the last time I put wheels on my challenger was when I swapped the OEM for the Demon Factory Rep wheels...so I could be remembering the fitment wrong.

I think what is unclear here is what is the true definition of hub-centric? It could very well be my definition of hub-centric is outdated or flawed from day one.

I searched the web (as you can see from my previous post) and some say it a perfect, tight fit between hub boss and wheel bore equals hub centric but other definitions say "just fit" like the one from summit. Then there are definitions that say it supports the weight of the wheel and others say it does not.

I actually have the OEM wheels in the basement and my parking brakes are due for an adjustment so maybe later today I will actually fit the OEM wheels again and see.
 

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Actually, heavy trucks started using hub centric hubs and wheels relatively recently, and the flat nut and washer setup was used long before that.

Light duty dual rear wheel pickups also use that style of lug nut, and are hub centric.

I'll have to go out and see if I have anything (except for the '80 Peterbilt and its trailers) that isn't hub centric.
Well, if it has stock wheels on it, that is.
When I worked for a tractor trailer service station (it was actually a auto and tractor trailer shop), all the back wheels and trailer wheels used wedges and flat nuts. I remember using a coke can to determine how much wobble was in the wheel and torque the lug nuts appropriately until just about all the wheel wobble was gone.
 

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I actually have the OEM wheels in the basement and my parking brakes are due for an adjustment so maybe later today I will actually fit the OEM wheels again and see.
If you're doing it anyway, great. Best would be if you had inside and outside micrometers handy, but a good pair of calipers should work, too.
I would expect that you'll find about a 0.002-inch difference between hub and wheel.
 

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My 2003 Superduty is hub centric. The nuts have washers attached and there is no conical seat on the wheel at all. The newer cars might have a snug fit with the center of the wheel just touching the hub but in the end it is just there to help keep the wheel centered as you tighten up the conical seat lug nuts. The hub lip on my Superduty F250 is pretty thick and does provide a lot of support but the lug nuts keep it all together. With conical seat lug nuts and seats, while the snug fitting hub might help a little, the weight is all on the studs. I doubt you will find a lot of aftermarket wheels that are the exact center hub diameter and a plastic spacer is just there to help keep it all centered up as you tighten up the nuts evenly.
 

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... while the snug fitting hub might help a little, the weight is all on the studs.
Only if you leave the lug nuts loose. There really shouldn't be any weight applied to the wheel studs, no matter what, only tension. It's the clamping force that carries the weight, sometimes helped by well fitting hub and wheel combinations.

If I had known how this thread would play out I could've brought all these details up much earlier, but instead I tried to keep it simple. Too simple, apparently, which might have lead to some misunderstandings.
 

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Only if you leave the lug nuts loose. There really shouldn't be any weight applied to the wheel studs, no matter what, only tension. It's the clamping force that carries the weight, sometimes helped by well fitting hub and wheel combinations.



If I had known how this thread would play out I could've brought all these details up much earlier, but instead I tried to keep it simple. Too simple, apparently, which might have lead to some misunderstandings.


This is correct , there should never ever be any shear force on the studs themselves, or the hub. The clamping force applied by torquing/tightening the lugs is where the weight will bear.


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Discussion Starter #58 (Edited)
Ok Maybe someone can answer me this?

I'm driving down the highway minding my own business and inevitably hit a pothole at say 80mph.
The brunt of that force will be first absorbed by the tire and working up the rim.
Now with a hub correct rim my guess would be the hub itself would then do some absorbing.
On a non centric rim the rings are next and then the studs?

My question is could their be enough force to snap the studs on a non centric rim or would that just take way too much force?
 

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You'd be surprised how much things bend and twist under even normal use. Maybe even scared.

Anyway, if a wheel is mounted correctly, with clean surfaces, I seriously doubt that the studs would let go. At least with a hub centric wheel and the correct bolt pattern.
But part of that is because the short sidewalls would likely give out first, shortly followed by the wheel.
 

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They made millions of cars before hub centric was the rage and their wheels are still attached just fine after hitting pot holes.
 
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