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09 RT Challenger auto
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Discussion Starter #1
I been waiting to make a post on the topic of vac pumps, belt drive, standard oem PCV system.
1st Arrington has a great write up on how the pcv systems work and some mods for it. I urge anyone to read it.
But when it got to the part of FI, it kinda left me, hanging.
Knowing we have them on some the track cars and useing them a very long time I had to move forward.
Why worry about it right ?
If boosted FI, N0S, or High comp motor in our cars we have to vent the CrankCase. EPA has it all going back to the motor to be reburnt. Right on top of your pistons. In my case, that oil cooks on top of the pistons and will cause detnation at some point. Intake gets oil in it ect. ect. Thats why we have Catch Cans. Alot still goes by the catchcan.

Four types of vac systems. And none.
1. OEM system, maybe with a catch can.
2. Electric vac pumps
3. Belt drive vac pump.
4. None, vent to atomsphere.
5. Race app, use of headers to pull vac with valve cover breathers.

Usees
Either belt drive or electric and normally used on track cars has no epa regulation and there purpose.
1. The pump is used on many alky motors. Kendra in her dragster uses an elect vac pump. To vent the motor CC, she being useing that fuel loads up in the motors oil.
After a pass, she get to the pits and shuts down. The vac pump remains running to remove the saturated oil of the alcahol/ While in a slight vac the fuel boils away out of the oil at a lower atomsheric presure. Removing that fuel and vapor from the oil.
2. During the run itself the pump has the Crank Case in a vaccume 13in w/c giving the ring pack a better seal.
3. During the run and the vac on the CC helps keep the motor from leaking oil.
4. During the run and venting the CC in this way, the pistons are not running into a wall of crankcase
and piston blowby. "I call it cramping up"

The only bad I have came accross, is on a very bad azz vac pump set up wrong, may pull too much saturated vapor from the motor that lubes the wrist pins cyl walls.
A whole diffrent deal than what we have.

This motor is NA 15:1 motor, sealed, no valve cover breathers and crankcase is not using the headers to do the vacuum force of providing crankcase venting.

Terry, his dragster uses the headers to pull cc venting by use of welded in fittings at a 45deg at the header collector with backflow valve welded in.
The valve cover is tapped. and a vent on one side of the motor or any combo of this.
Wont go far here, cause many wont do this on our modern Hemi, Its really mostly a track mod useing open headers. Once mufflers are on (for any reason) it wont work.

On to our cars. again not for stock NA motors for the most part. Blowers and Juiced motors, Stroked, are the motor that can benifit.
First off, Im not pulling a tight vacuum to seal the ring pack. My deal is remove the cramping of the pistons in the crankcase,, to let the pistons run free.
Without running into a wall. Resistance, slowing down my pistons.
And my big deal is the OIL going back to the piston tops turning to carbon, then DETNATION. (think your dont do this, think again)
At the wrong time detnation under boost or while spraying can be a huge failure. Carbon causes Knk
Just look at every motor thats been removed, with the pistons tops covered in oil and carbon.
This mod will not pass EPA. Use CAUTION !!!!

Now, on to the facts with the Gen 3 Hemi figures and real data I have collected.
When a vortech or procharger goes into boost. The catch can does NOTHING. Shuts off when the intake plenum goes to preasure from a Vac. Once in boost the pcv valve slams shut, doing nothing. So your pistons are slowed down with resistance in the CrankCase,,, it is cramped up with resistance. Steals you of some HP, once out of boost crankcase will go into a vac sucking in all the oil latent vapor right on top of your pistons.
The motor at idle is 20in of vac, as you drive around it has 3in, then maybe 7in then 0 depending on throttle position is where your vacuum will be.

To be cont: pictures, data, and part numbers, correct spelling all coming. I have to go to work. Back tonight.

Thanks FlatTop

Welcome and Add to this discussion, wack at it. Ideas, thoughts are all welcome.
If you want to be a turd with no input move along please. There is another topic somewhere for you.
 

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09 RT Challenger auto
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Discussion Starter #2
Back to the pumps and what they are/
1st pump at the bottom is a pump made by GZ been around a long time. Our problem is fit. Where to install a pump as accessory belt drive. Real PIA on our cars layout.
It takes about 4 to 6hp to run the pump. Some who tested these pumps on a dyno got 20 to 40hp after the loss figured in from being belt drive. These pumps will be able to produce enough vacuum to seal the rings and evac the CrankCase to releave the blowby build up. "cramps"
2nd pump is an electric pump from summit. It will pull 20" inhg vac. This pump will seal rings and also remove blowby. You always want to use a catch can or two before the pump. This way the oil vapor from the CrankCase the pump is sucking out is caught in the cans. No need in pumping the oil through the vac pump. Id rather catch it than suck it through and puke it out under the car.

If you running a closed system to seal rings, remove oil leaks, and remove cramps in the crankcase you will need a sealed motor and use a regulator valve. This is set at 14inhg vac and regulates by letting air into the motor for air to suck through when its above set the point, need more vac it closes some. It will modulate keeping a desired Vacuum set point in the crankcase. The regulator would go on the side of our oil fill tube for the Hemi.

Next is for my Hemi. NOT to SEAL rings, But to remove crank case blowby and free up the pistons. Get rid of the cramps. Makes free HP. The HP is already there, it just frees it up by doing this. Again used on blower/turbo/nos/stroker motors.
I said my pump makes 5" inhg of vac. dead headed and 5.5 scfh
The second concern I have and the pump is used for, NO OIL GOING TO MY PISTON TOPS. That WILL cause detnation at some point. Why I started all the bench testing,, then real world testing.

It is and has been done in the Mustang, LS1,Corvett on many past forums. Remember in the first post I said READ Arrington artical on the PCV Bible. Great Read, but left me hanging. Well it did leave me hangin and never addressed FI and blowby into crankcase. (I think cause of the EPA) Bull Sh!t.

3rd pic is a pump from a ford. Cobra pumps, diesel trucks, many factory air pumps out there that turns into a vac pump. They cant handle the oil vapor as well sooooo yep, goes through the catch cans first. Just to save the pump.
No the pump wont pull 13"inhg of vac, as stated will pull 5"inhg and enough CFM to change the air in the crankcase every 6 seconds with the oil fill cap as a filtered intake. (supply air) for the crankcase.
Im no where near pulling oil mist to damage the motor. Not even close.
4th pic is where and how I mounted the pump. And it all works BTW as said NO OIL on my pistons EVER.
The pump wont break ya at 35 bucks from a bone yard. The sumitt elect pump will be next and is a good pump.
 

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09 RT Challenger auto
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Discussion Starter #3
saved for later....Coming soon, Pump bench testing and real time testing results.
I know, many will say,,,, I dont need it, hey cool. or I make 1000hp and dont need it. Sure, ok. on and on.
You may really never know then. Cause if your useing factory OEM pcv system, oil is going to the piston tops. Period.
And your bottom end is,,, all Cramped up. Not everyone can use this beacuse of smog testing.
Dont hate !!!! lol lol Below is 5.7 FI 8psi 40,000 miles. The carbon on the pistons can cause hot spots and give you detnation. And then pull timing.
Not to mention the oil vapor going into a motor reduces octane.
FlatTop
 

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Flat Top - Nice to hear you are thinking of ways to improve the crankcase ventilation under boost. I have also been trying to figure out a way to improve it on my boosted engine. There must be a better solution...
Unfortunately I have to pass emissions each year so in my case I need to figure out a better method that has that capability. :icon_cheers:
 

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09 RT Challenger auto
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Discussion Starter #5
Easy to remove before you go for testing.
It would only be one time per year anyway.
Im so glad we dont have it here.
Anybody have diffrent opnion, another way to do the job. Im all ears. Im looking for input.
FT
 

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Keep us posted, great writeup
 

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My PCV system was replaced when I put in my Edelbrock. I don't have any data or know how to verify. I do wonder though if they have taken all of this into consideration when integrating their own PCV system of if they just copied the stock and put it on their supercharger.
 

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09 RT Challenger auto
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Discussion Starter #9
My PCV system was replaced when I put in my Edelbrock. I don't have any data or know how to verify. I do wonder though if they have taken all of this into consideration when integrating their own PCV system of if they just copied the stock and put it on their supercharger.
Ihavnt seen how they run theres. I would say probally not due to the EPA standards.
I'm sure many will just say don't worry about it will be fine. And I'm sure it will be, if you can accept knowing the oil on the pistons and the cramping of the bottom end under boost when the pcv system is pulling nothing. Unless the oil fill side port is hooked up to the intake tube or filter as the vortech is that way. So then during boost its pulling crankcase vapor and again dumping it into the motor. While the pcv side slams closed.
Flattop
 

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FT it looks like you are venting to atmosphere through a breather after the pump. Please let me know if you are getting any fumes / smell from your setup. I would also be interested to know what filter you ended up using on the exhaust side of the pump.
I like what you have come up with so far - great job!

It looks like you used a Ford emission pump part# F6DE-9A486-BC ?? which also crosses to a Motorcraft CX1598

Link to the great CCV article by Arrington you mentioned - http://www.shophemi.com/images/media/p-2273-arrington_ccv_bible.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Filter is a KnN from a speed shop. No big fume problem. However I am going to run it into the front fender and terminate it there. I wont stop where im at now.
I will clean it up soon. Just working out the bugs first.
Correct on the pump also, Theres supposed to be better out there I just dont know what ones and this one works. I can see how long it lasts.
If its not long lasting then Ill try the pump from summit and see how it lasts.
Thanks Gene
 

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Filter is a KnN from a speed shop. No big fume problem. However I am going to run it into the front fender and terminate it there. I wont stop where im at now.
I will clean it up soon. Just working out the bugs first.
Correct on the pump also, Theres supposed to be better out there I just dont know what ones and this one works. I can see how long it lasts.
If its not long lasting then Ill try the pump from summit and see how it lasts.
Thanks Gene
Following up from your March 2014 post: How has that original vacuum pump held up? Are you sticking with it, or did you replace it with another brand?

I started following this thread (and really appreciate the great info) looking for small but fundamental things I can do to my 2015 while I wait for the aftermarket Tuners and performance mod vendors to "crack the codes" and start producing fun toys for my MY.

In conjunction with what I've read from Arrington's CCV Bible, I'm going to re-structure my catch can configuration and was wondering if adding a vacuum pump into the mix would make sense. I realize w/o a Supercharger, I'm putting lipstick on a pig, but gotta start somewhere. Am also investigating Water/Meth injection (won't pull trigger until the newly released 2015 tuners are proven, obviously).

Your thoughts?
 

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ok tried to read through the bible, got the jits of it but needs to sink in....

Flat Top, I have a catch can and run a stock engine with a CAI and an aggressive tune

state inspection is not so much of an issue for me, what should i do to keep the engine top performing and clean...

not sure I got all what you said... so before i disco some hoses and create massive positive pressure in the cranckase and F things up just wanted to get some input for a naturally aspirated engine

I run a 392 stock on an SRT8 6M 2013

what you say?
 

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09 RT Challenger auto
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Discussion Starter #16
Hey guys. Yes I never stop. I never give up. I promise to give more info soon. Plus some extra thats being tryed out on a 426 with a Techo blower. And some stuff I done and have answers for. So I do have some more new info.
Give me a bit to sort things out.
I just had a Kidney removed, not 10 days ago. Ya CANCER. WTF it was 8x8x9in thick, Huge chunk. And my kidney went with it. 100% contained. I am cancer FREE. And damn lucky.
Trying to run a TRUE STREET CAR shoot out this weekend. Really cool set up.
Pro tree, Heads up racing. With a not bad payout either. Tired of bracket racing BS and the huge coin takes to run heads up in outlaw. Soooo this is for guys , like us.
woh Im way off topic but promise to get back to topic soon with cool info.,. that works BTW
FlatTop
 

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Hey guys. Yes I never stop. I never give up. I promise to give more info soon. Plus some extra thats being tryed out on a 426 with a Techo blower. And some stuff I done and have answers for. So I do have some more new info.
Give me a bit to sort things out.
I just had a Kidney removed, not 10 days ago. Ya CANCER. WTF it was 8x8x9in thick, Huge chunk. And my kidney went with it. 100% contained. I am cancer FREE. And damn lucky.
Trying to run a TRUE STREET CAR shoot out this weekend. Really cool set up.
Pro tree, Heads up racing. With a not bad payout either. Tired of bracket racing BS and the huge coin takes to run heads up in outlaw. Soooo this is for guys , like us.
woh Im way off topic but promise to get back to topic soon with cool info.,. that works BTW
FlatTop
Glad to hear that you're Cancer free! That's Great news and you are Blessed to get it all out and catch it before it got worse! Cancer is some bad stuff and I'm Happy for you!

Congratulations! :icon_cheers:
 

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I have seen a 40 hp gain with crankcase ventilation system that uses the fittings that weld in the header collectors on a high 500 hp carbureted engine.
 

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09 RT Challenger auto
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Discussion Starter #20
ok tried to read through the bible, got the jits of it but needs to sink in....

Flat Top, I have a catch can and run a stock engine with a CAI and an aggressive tune

state inspection is not so much of an issue for me, what should i do to keep the engine top performing and clean...

not sure I got all what you said... so before i disco some hoses and create massive positive pressure in the cranckase and F things up just wanted to get some input for a naturally aspirated engine

I run a 392 stock on an SRT8 6M 2013

what you say?
On the vac pumps and + in the crankcase being a stock NA motor catch can and keeping clean is where its at. Once you go NA high compressssion, or run alky and course FI, blower or turbo where your really moving air, spraying big loads of juice and have a motor clearanced for such is where your motors built loose on ring end gap ect. is where the crank case starts to needs the more ventaltion.
Just dont forget, is for off road use only. (wink) You will not pass in any states smog sh!t.
Why I said I like the bible read from years ago, but it just stopped short and left off. I know whys and already mentioned it. Smog testing.
FlatTop
 
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