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I'm in the middle of a 6.4 cam swap in my R/T and before pulling the cam out I had a few questions, most of my searches have come up with non-VVT info. I was planning on leaving the oil pump attached as I did on my LS2 GTO but can't find crank timing mark that way, has anyone else done it this way ? It appears when I'm at TDC the crank keyway is at approx. 1 o'clock or so and I've marked that very well, is that true ? Also is there anything special when pulling the phaser and cam sprocket off ? Just pin back the tensioner and pull it from there ? Any help would be appreciated, thanks !!
 

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The crank timing mark is on the crank sprocket...its a small dimple that will be at the 6 o'clock position (and cam sprocket mark is @ 12 o'clock).

The crank keyway would be at the 2 o'clock positon.

The best way to assure you have the timing marks correct is to remove the oil pump - you must remove the tensioner to allow room to rotate the pump clockwise a bit and unbolt the pick up tube to allow removal.

When you have the pump removed, you can also assure that you have the guide marks on the chain oriented on the sprockets. After that, temporarily install the tensioner (and guide shoe), rotate the engine and check the marks on the cam and crank sprocket (marks on chain won't line up after rotatation - this is just for assembly guide).

Once you have the timing set, use zip ties to pull that chain tight and then you can remove the tensioner and re-install the pump (its a bit of work, but it can be done w/o removing the oil pan). The guide shoe can remain installed, as it won't interfere with rotating the oil pump for pickup tube install.

You'll need to zip ties to keep the chain on the sprockets, otherwise it will hang slack and you'll lose the timing setting. Once everything is back in place and tensioner installed and deployed, you can cut the zip ties and pull them out.

Attached are images of the timing marks and of the front of the engine/chain installed.
 

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09 RT Challenger auto
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Good info Hal,,,,
I can add,, use caution removing the oil pump pick up tube bolt. Dont drop it in the pan. Second tripple check the timing marks and make sure your not one tooth adv or ret. It will run but not very well and may have piston and valve contact.
FlatTop
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for all the info, just got the oil pump and timing chain off, timing mark on crank is still hard to see with front fascia on car, but I'll triple check it when I put it back together.
 

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Thanks for all the info, just got the oil pump and timing chain off, timing mark on crank is still hard to see with front fascia on car, but I'll triple check it when I put it back together.
The best way is to use a mirror and a bright light - that dimple is small.

I wiped the sprocket clean (it slides easily off the crank snout) and marked the top 180* opposite the mark with a sharpie and put a mark on the front lip on the crank sprocket by the timing mark to aid in spotting (and assist in determining when rotating the engine to re-check the timing marks).

I worked with the facia on the car, so it can be done...having long arms helps. :)
 

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Well, that part went smooth, but was pulling magnets off lifters and one broke off at stem of magnet, so unless I come up with something really creative it looks I'll be pulling a head also !!
 

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...this may not help your situation...but for other readers.

Usually you can spin the cam (with rocker shafts, pushrods removed) and that will knock the lifters up their bores and they'll stay there. This avoids having to pull the heads.
[the pushrod holes are just large enough for the pushrods to pass through and that's it...]

I was able to pull my cam using that technique.

I wonder if you can get one of those push button cable "claws" to reach into the pushrod hole and pull the magnet remnant out? [they're called flexible retrieving tools]

Its the kind of tool for retrieving parts/ screws dropped into tight spaces. My dad had one of those, and he used to drop a lot of screws and parts so he had a lot of use out of that.
 

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Great news, ended up getting the magnet out with a scribe to keep it centered, then grabbing it with a pair of skinny needle nose pliers. If I had to do it again I would only use the spin method.


Sent from AutoGuide.com App
 

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Great news, ended up getting the magnet out with a scribe to keep it centered, then grabbing it with a pair of skinny needle nose pliers. If I had to do it again I would only use the spin method.


Sent from AutoGuide.com App
Now that's a good ending!

With the lifters' bores being nearly horizontal, they (lifters) stay in place...makes the job that much easier.
 

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My oil pump won't rotate clockwise. I've removed the tensioner and all fasteners but I can't get it to move and don't want to force it. Please help, stuck with the challenger in the garage in pieces and a new cam waiting to be used inside.
 

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My oil pump won't rotate clockwise. I've removed the tensioner and all fasteners but I can't get it to move and don't want to force it. Please help, stuck with the challenger in the garage in pieces and a new cam waiting to be used inside.
Try pulling the pump away from the engine (to clear the four bosses it bolts into). Make sure you have all four bolts removed from the pump (I'm certain you did that, but just in case).

Once you get it rotated (for removal), you'll need to unbolt the oil pickup tube (and replace the blue o-ring when re-assembling).

Reassembling (after you get the timing marks aligned with the sprockets and marks on chain), you'll need to use zip ties to hold the chain tight (it will drop away from crank sprocket w/o the guide and tensioner to keep it taut.
 

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Try pulling the pump away from the engine (to clear the four bosses it bolts into). Make sure you have all four bolts removed from the pump (I'm certain you did that, but just in case).

Once you get it rotated (for removal), you'll need to unbolt the oil pickup tube (and replace the blue o-ring when re-assembling).

Reassembling (after you get the timing marks aligned with the sprockets and marks on chain), you'll need to use zip ties to hold the chain tight (it will drop away from crank sprocket w/o the guide and tensioner to keep it taut.
I've tried pulling it the inch it has away, but it won't even budge forward. Wondering why mine is being such a pain in the a** :icon_confused:
 

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The only thing I can think of is the oil pickup tube. You have to pull it out of the pump (by rotating the pump clockwise) after you've removed the bolt. (careful not to drop the bolt in the pan - if you do, you can retrieve it by making a hood out of coat hanger wire)

There isn't that much room around the pickup tube due to the windage tray cutout it passes through.

Its on the bottom left corner of the pump - the bolt is on the bottom underside. (see picture #5 in the 2nd post of this thread for reference)

The gerotor gear driven off the crank "floats" within the pump housing, so that wouldn't likely bind.

With mine, once the bolts and the pickup tube were free, it slipped off the crank with little effort.

Sometimes, you have to rock the pump left/right a bit to clear the bosses on the face of the block.
 

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The only thing I can think of is the oil pickup tube. You have to pull it out of the pump (by rotating the pump clockwise) after you've removed the bolt. (careful not to drop the bolt in the pan - if you do, you can retrieve it by making a hood out of coat hanger wire)

There isn't that much room around the pickup tube due to the windage tray cutout it passes through.

Its on the bottom left corner of the pump - the bolt is on the bottom underside. (see picture #5 in the 2nd post of this thread for reference)

The gerotor gear driven off the crank "floats" within the pump housing, so that wouldn't likely bind.

With mine, once the bolts and the pickup tube were free, it slipped off the crank with little effort.

Sometimes, you have to rock the pump left/right a bit to clear the bosses on the face of the block.
That's what I've been thinking, but I can't rotate the pump enough to get to the bolt... I might have to find another way of removing it, and hopefully It's not removing the oil pan.
 

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You don't want to have to remove the oil pan its a PITA.

There's bolts going through the bell housing into the pan (its structural), plus the steering rack runs underneath the pan as well.

Can you get a box end or flat wrench end on the bolt (offset wrench will give more room) to get it loose?

It would be a pain to do it that way, as you only have a limited amount of room to turn the bolt, then allow the pickup to tube to hang on the bolt, rotate pump then take the bolt out all the way.

Its sounds harder describing it, but there's a way of getting the pump off w/o removing the oil pan. Once you 'get' it, its much easier.

I found that getting the pump just barely clear of the block mounting bosses allowed rotation - if you pulled too far out, the bolt/pickup tube contacts the windage tray, preventing rotation, and you get stuck not being able to rotate the pump for access.

With finessing it, you find the right amount of clearance and it will turn - the service notes mention "patience and persistence" to do this and they don't require removing the oil pan.
 

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That's what I've been thinking, but I can't rotate the pump enough to get to the bolt... I might have to find another way of removing it, and hopefully It's not removing the oil pan.
That's the super tricky part. Most of us left the pan on. You can remove the pickup tube bolt where it is. Seems impossible but you can. GO SLOW. Once you swap the cam and get the pickup tube bolted back in, it's a huge relief and you will feel very good.

Once broke loose, IIRC, you can get it out with your fingers. You can do it!
 

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Hal Good job on the talk through and tech info. Explained very well. Kuddos
That damn pick up tube. Yea, more scary looking than it really is.

Did everyone get your cams done ? All running well ? Got tuned ?
FlatTop
 

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With the crank sprocket mark at 6 o clock do you need to worry about top dead center for #1?
when the mark is at 6 o'clock position cyl # 1 is at TDC.

cam sprocket is at 12 o'clock for the correct assembly position

the purpose of the (initial assembly) chain marks is to insure that you don't have any links off by a tooth or two + the sprocket marks
 
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