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What will help the V8 Hemi survive in our Challengers?

11K views 84 replies 23 participants last post by  O.J.Sakuma 
#1 ·
I know that the 2025 CAFE standards have been pushed back for now, but that may or may not be reversed by whatever administration takes power in 2021. What are FCA and the other American auto makers doing to at least temporarily forestall the death of the V8? I'd still like to be able to buy a new Hemi Challenger in 7-10 years when I wear out my current one!

We've seen technology like VVT, MDS, eTorque, and direct fuel injection (which the Hemi doesn't have) appear, along with new and better fuel/air control systems, more efficient transmissions, etc. Dodge will likely also start incorporating weight reduction in the next gen cars. We also know that some form of mild hybrid electrification is coming to the next gen, per Sergio's words.

All this is good, but will it be enough to ensure the Hemi's survival?

Personally, I'd love to see Dodge adopt a technology like Mazda's Skyactiv-X () for the 4th gen Hemi, which would help both our wallets in fuel savings and keep the government regulators away for longer. It also seems to be the most cost-effective and simplest option, since it doesn't require new parts or more complex systems bolted on. Combine that with weight reduction, direct injection, and mild hybridization and I think we could potentially see 30-35mpg highway from a 392 cubic inch V8!

I don't know enough about IC engine engineering to say how our Hemi's performance would be affected by Mazda's approach though, perhaps someone better educated can shed light?
 
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#2 ·
bottom line: they wont survive. tech is moving too fast in the opposite direction. Id give it 10-12yrs and there will be no more new ones being produced by anyone.
 
#6 ·
the issue was the large amounts of electricity for hydrolysis for hydrogen fuel cells - more energy going in that what the yield was.

hadn't heard about nitrogen - but again most industrial gas production takes a fair amount of energy to produce the product.

by comparison - LNG or propane are much easier to refine, compress or liquefy as a fuel
 
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#8 ·
You can hope for something like the Mazda engine helping to extend the life of ICE engines but the push is on - via government policies -- to eliminate the ICE from the road ways.

USA, Europe and China are pushing electric cars and will keep tightening the screws on ICE to make them go away.

In short: Fossil fuels is bad. Electricity is good.
 
#9 ·
Buy more clean air credits from Tesla. FCA pay Tesla $340 million a year? Budget for $400M, $500M, whatever it takes to keep the Hemi. I'm off on the number, because I've not kept up, but not that off. The only reason why Tesla is in business is from selling clean air credit. Tesla made well over $2B from this shame. Biggest customers are FCA, Benz, GM, etc.

Back to topic, I like to see the Hemi V8 be left the way it is. We all need to breath clean air, it's ok to EV and hybrid everything else. This will offset the CAFE numbers. Chrysler Pacific is a great example. Gas powered, hybrid, and EV. Every model line should offer these three options.
 
#11 ·
On my soap box. The "America" brands idea to killing off the sedan (because of market demand?.?.?) is a bad idea. There are no 30 MPG cars to offset the V8 engines. It's too late now to bring back the Dart or 200. These are cars people really do want and willing to buy. No one wants the Fiat 500. So what if they are not better cars than the Civic or the Accord. They don't need to be. Nothing wrong with 4th or 6th or 7th place in sales. We don't teach kids that in baseball or winning. But this is business. Extremely short sighted IMO on the American auto leaders. Selling an extra 150,000 cars a year isn't bad. It keeps a lot of guys working. Ok, capacity can be diverted to more "profitable" models, such as? Jeep? Ok, or in return to fork that money over to Tesla.

The e-Torque idea is great as a step toward making them (V8) efficient, but it makes no difference in the big picture. FCA is still in "trouble."
 
#12 ·
I can't completely disagree with you, but I understand them leaving the sedans to the import brands. American sedans just haven't been able to compete with the price, quality, reliability, and brand image that some of the imports have. So I guess they decided it wasn't worth the expense of producing them, especially when crossovers and SUV's are currently more popular.
 
#14 ·
I am so glad this isn't really ever going to be a concern of mine. My first new car was a 1967 Dodge Coronet 440 2 door HT which means, having been born in 1945, I grew up during the best of the muscle car era. It also means I'm still kicking during this resurgence of the HP races. While I'm enjoying my current '13 R/T at age 74, I expect to buy only one more car in my lifetime. That will likely be in about another 4 years. What will it be? Another R/T is the likely answer. The only question I'll have to answer is will it be a low mileage '13 or '14 or a low mileage newer model. This ICE vs. electric battle isn't mine so I don't enter the fray. What I don't understand is why those who will truly be affected simply lay down and allow governments to DICTATE what they will drive.
 
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#15 ·
I was so upset when these "Horseless Carriages" came out. What's wrong with my horse? It can also help plow, my kids love it. I hope horses don't go away for a long time!

A Guy
 
#16 ·
Yup......NICE answer!

Captures it perfecty.

Hemi's and for that matter ICE is probably going away, probably faster than most here want to believe.

The good news though? Just like a horse owned by so many people went away mostly by choice and not nearly so much because it was forced by law that didn't want them in towns, cities or on highways.......same here most everyone hand wringing over the potential demise of ICE will embrace the change when they see the efficiency and power levels of Electric. Drive a Tesla performance model and prepare to be WOW'd. Live with it for a while and realize how much less expensive it is to fuel and maintain.....soon after you give up you're ICE powered car as a daily driver PDQ.

Crazy part? Electric is already superior at this price point but it just keeps getting better each year on price.

Makes the future pretty obvious.....Unless the gains electric is making hits a wall ....soon the only reason I'll want an ICE powered car will be for the nostalgia and those Sunday throw back rides I'm willing to do at very expensive cost vs my electric daily driver.

My big worry.....if the number of people who want to keep driving an ICE powered car dwindle to a near insignificant number in my lifetime I might lose the legal ability to drive the ICE powered car on the road much like the way you can't just ride a horse on any road way today.
 
#20 ·
Bottom line, I'm surprised its gone on as long as it has. I myself have built and just built a 505 CI Plymouth. The days of combustion type motors in so called "new muscle cars" are limited as tech increases.. Most of these folks have never wrenched a day in their lives and I won't count installation of a K&N filter. As the tech industry pushes forward those that want a "real muscle car" will need to brush up on basic mechanics of a combustion motor.

You'll be faced with doing so or buying one and or paying 200.00 a hour shop rate. Don't get me wrong, I love the Charger and Challenger big time and can see why those who haven't a clue the difference between a trans and engine feel ?.. It's just been a long road and I myself, still am impressed that the old Dyno's still walk this earth. In fact, was chatting with a man at Summit Racing and he said the sale of old parts couldn't be any better;) Dodge/Chrysler will do what they need to keep this fire burning.. Unfortunately, may not be a high output V8 tho. The late 70s and 80s showed us when the government sets in, ? power drips!

I know that the 2025 CAFE standards have been pushed back for now, but that may or may not be reversed by whatever administration takes power in 2021. What are FCA and the other American auto makers doing to at least temporarily forestall the death of the V8? I'd still like to be able to buy a new Hemi Challenger in 7-10 years when I wear out my current one!

We've seen technology like VVT, MDS, eTorque, and direct fuel injection (which the Hemi doesn't have) appear, along with new and better fuel/air control systems, more efficient transmissions, etc. Dodge will likely also start incorporating weight reduction in the next gen cars. We also know that some form of mild hybrid electrification is coming to the next gen, per Sergio's words.

All this is good, but will it be enough to ensure the Hemi's survival?

Personally, I'd love to see Dodge adopt a technology like Mazda's Skyactiv-X () for the 4th gen Hemi, which would help both our wallets in fuel savings and keep the government regulators away for longer. It also seems to be the most cost-effective and simplest option, since it doesn't require new parts or more complex systems bolted on. Combine that with weight reduction, direct injection, and mild hybridization and I think we could potentially see 30-35mpg highway from a 392 cubic inch V8!

I don't know enough about IC engine engineering to say how our Hemi's performance would be affected by Mazda's approach though, perhaps someone better educated can shed light?
 
#21 ·
Honestly, at the rate things go, the politics, etc. This is an issue for our children or grand children. New cars with V8's, yes, that will come sooner than later, but they will be replaced with smaller boosted engines first, with plenty of horsepower (if not 717-797).

Total dearth of internal combustion engines however will take much longer, and existing "classic" cars will remain for a long time.

When I was a kid I lamented I'd never own a muscle car because it would be all flying cars when I grew up :) My Kid-dom was long ago!

Technologies do tend to make leaps, and the leaps lead to other leaps, so the electric car tech we think of now may bear little resemblance to what will dominate then. It may be the scarcity of gasoline that dooms the ICE some day, whether cost of production, or pollution regulations, etc.

But if you are...perhaps 30 or younger (?), there will still be ICE vehicles on the roads when you are old IMHO. All of us older will smile and remember when we were so worried...Y2k is coming! :D

A Guy
 
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#22 ·
Honestly, at the rate things go, the politics, etc. This is an issue for our children or grand children. New cars with V8's, yes, that will come sooner than later, but they will be replaced with smaller boosted engines first, with plenty of horsepower (if not 717-797).

Total dearth of internal combustion engines however will take much longer, and existing "classic" cars will remain for a long time.

When I was a kid I lamented I'd never own a muscle car because it would be all flying cars when I grew up :) My Kid-dom was long ago!

Technologies do tend to make leaps, and the leaps lead to other leaps, so the electric car tech we think of now may bear little resemblance to what will dominate then. It may be the scarcity of gasoline that dooms the ICE some day, whether cost of production, or pollution regulations, etc.

But if you are...perhaps 30 or younger (?), there will still be ICE vehicles on the roads when you are old IMHO. All of us older will smile and remember when we were so worried...Y2k is coming! :D

A Guy
For the sake of our grandchildren, the sooner the better. WE only have 1 planet, the problem is the science deniers! I am just enjoying it while I can and keeping it's foot print relatively small (1k miles a year)
 
#23 ·
Here is a question I wondered. Here me out, flame me if you must.

Why do we need that much power? 700hp? 500hp? 400hp? or even 300hp?

A 1982 Pontiac Trans Am with 5.0L V8 Carb puts out 145hp. The OGs would agree with me. That was performance. That was a fun car. That was a sports car. That was a fast car. Don't compare with today, but just think back. I recall the GM G Body (Olds Cutless, Regal, Grand Prix, Monte) was able to get 30MPG hwy EPA est.

Now, if today's 500hp V8 engine car can get 30mph. What would be the MPG if the power was detuned, and engineered at the peak efficiency with 200hp? Would it get 40MPG?

The point is, whenever an engineer found ways to improve the efficiency of a V8, they push the power up, rather than push MPG, because that's not why customers buy V8 for.

All of the numbers may not line up, but you get the point. Maybe the way for V8 engine to survive is the not keep pushing the horsepower envelope.

The current horsepower race can put V8 engine into extinction.
 
#24 ·
Here is a question I wondered. Here me out, flame me if you must.

Why do we need that much power? 700hp? 500hp? 400hp? or even 300hp?

A 1982 Pontiac Trans Am with 5.0L V8 Carb puts out 145hp. The OGs would agree with me. That was performance. That was a fun car. That was a sports car. That was a fast car. Don't compare with today, but just think back. I recall the GM G Body (Olds Cutless, Regal, Grand Prix, Monte) was able to get 30MPG hwy EPA est.
LOL I remember those cars, they did not have enough power to pull a sick old woman out of bed. They may have looked sporty but they most certainly were not fast.
If you thought they were, you just never spent any time in a fast car.
I do not have to compare it to today's cars, cars then were bad, just bad, unless you did head work, cams, exhaust.

 
#25 ·
My cousin said that to me once. I said I've driven a TT Supra (93 and 94) and said it was fast. He looked and said "if you think that is fast, try my bike..." It was a Suzuki 900RR. Nevermind fast, it was more like hanging on for dear life.
 
#28 ·
The thing is, the sound. I mean that's not all, but if you have a 0-60 1.9 seconds electric car, and it emulated the sound a V8 (or V12) would make, you'd love it. But to tromp on the gas and hear



But then again



A Guy
 
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#32 ·
The performance is undeniable but you still don't get the sounds and feel of a V8. I could drive my GT and my SP in traffic to the store without really getting on either of them and the driving experience is totally different. So much so that if you didn't know it was the same basic car you wouldn't believe it.
 
#29 ·
Electric cars are the future, this video sold me...


My take on it all...
1: For daily work and back less than cars range (150 miles?) perfect for commuting and cost little to run = electric car.
2: All day running as in taxi, sales rep etc. = hybrid, diesel, petrol. (electric useless for this if the need is greater than its range).
3: For road trips/interstate etc. anything long range = hybrid, diesel, petrol (electric useless for this).
4: For performance = electric for short term but ultimately petrol.
5: For muscle car = Dodge.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I think we're headed for a very uncomfortable confrontation of ALL these issues and soon too.

Here's how it happened for me and my wife......I can't believe our experience is a whole lot different than what MOST people will get to. Seems we just got here a little earlier than most who ARE NOT card carrying political advocates of the MMGW agenda.

Sure.....to buy into the Chevy Bolt just about 10 years ago.......or to consider solar panels at your home those same 10 years ago REQUIRED you to be the "ECO WARRIOR" to the point of LUNACY!! In no way could you made a solid argument for the tech as making good financial sense.

Today everything has changed. I'll skip the solar panel discussion because we're focused on cars here but yes if you've got the room for many people the solar panels are well worth it too.

We've put that first electric car into our garage because it's just better.......and not just a little better.....it CRUSHES any argument beyond nostalgia that could be made in support of ICE.

I mean how much more do you need to know beyond:

It's faster,

It cost far less to fuel/charge.

It's got a near insignificant maintenance cost beyond it's tires vs the much more expensive to maintain gas powered cars it shares space with.

We're car people......our ICE powered cars, the older ones anyway, aren't going anywhere. We love 'em and will probably always want to drive 'em on those Sunny Sundays.......but I do wonder.

When more people see these cars in the showroom at their local dealerships.....when they hear stories from the earlier adopters ...... how long I wonder before the expected "hockey stick" on the graph rate of registration leaves the blade and creates the handle side of the picture?

When this happens (not-so-much "if")......... the "grid" better be ready or we're gonna see REAL problems.

Mean-while......this is a cool video from a guy who we're used to seeing some pretty cool videos from about Car tech. (he's got a great one on why GM had to do the mid engine Corvette and where the advantage is found that allows a mere 460HP car to do a sub 3 sec 0-60MPH)......but in this video he's talking about his own daily driver a Tesla. You can't watch it and not come away with an understanding of why electric is the future and it's probably gonna be here in a BIG WAY faster than most of us seem to be willing to recognize:

 
#39 ·
As for America not making many cars/sedans only SUVs and Trucks. Think of this, Chrysler/Dodge does not sell a 4cyl "car" at all.
Buick and Cadillac now have the most different "cars" available! And Cadillac will offer a huge (for a 4cyl) 2.7l 310hp with 348 tq 4cyl. That is getting close to what the HEMI was in 2005. And it is in a RWD sedan. The fun isn't over, by a long shot. Cadillac will also have a 4.2 twin turbo V8 with something like 650 torques! and maybe 550hp? (yeah, it makes a RedEye look like a bargain, they are $95K...
As long as they are out there, the other guy will make one to compete for my money.
And for pollution, they are almost to the point where they clean the air as they drive, (CO2 is NOT a pollutant, it is plant food...).
 
#43 ·
DVD players replaced VHS, Computers replaced typewriters, emails and texting replaced writing letters, CD replaced cassette, downloads replaced CD, so on and so on. Technology progresses. But there is an important detail to all of that: It happened because the consumer willingly went that way on their own, and the money followed. There is no government incentive to replace your old flip phone with the latest smart phone.

So If electric cars are truly the natural progression of the market, then let's see them catch on without all of the government incentives. No more government paying you to buy one, or trying to influence your decision by taxing you even more for buying an internal combustion engine. If EVs can take over on their own, great. I'm all for it. But as long as it's forced on me, I will always be opposed to it. A truly superior product does not need it's competitors regulated away in order to catch on with consumers.
 
#44 ·
Electric cars can be a safety issue for pedestrians. Since they do not make any noise I hear of pedestrians stepping in front of them. Perhaps they can install a speaker that makes engine sounds. And program it for a 4cyl, V8, Diesel, etc.

So If electric cars are truly the natural progression of the market, then let's see them catch on without all of the government incentives. No more government paying you to buy one, or trying to influence your decision by taxing you even more for buying an internal combustion engine. If EVs can take over on their own, great. I'm all for it. But as long as it's forced on me, I will always be opposed to it. A truly superior product does not need it's competitors regulated away in order to catch on with consumers.
And I like the idea of "no government incentives". I feel any technology should prove itself without government subsidies.
 
#53 ·
Many of the new (2020) does make a sound at low speed. It sounds kind of weird (2020 Toyota Rav4) IRL. I think it confuses me more. I'm hearing a sound, look left and right, don't know what it is. And a car is coming toward me. Our senses all work together to send our brain the signal. The current EV sound does not do it IMO.

Since many performance cars pipe in fake sounds. I think they should make mimic the sounds of a real ICE. I want my Toyota Prius to sound like a Chevy 454 Big Block rolling around the parking lot at Walmart. Like ring tones. We should be able to select our exterior engine sounds.
 
#55 ·
I may consider an electric or hybrid vehicle but I drive too many miles and distances to utilize such a vehicle. The cost would need to be similar to a gas/Diesel powered vehicle.
 
#56 ·
How long have Teslas been out now? Do we even now how well they hold up over time? Like how long before the batteries (big $$$) or even the electric motors last before needing replaced? What about other aspects of the drivetrain (I'm assuming there is some sort of transmission?).
 
#57 ·

This may be an exception. 400,000 miles, and battery has been replaced twice. 1st at 194K and 2nd at 324K.

I suppose this would be an example of the saying less moving parts, so less opportunity for things to break down.

Here is one more at 420,000 miles.
 
#59 ·
I thought this was interesting from the article and make sense.

"No moving parts within an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) also decrease vibration, one of the most impactful items towards the health of the car."

Just an opinion, and can be wrong, I think we are in the "golden age" of EVs where companies really do try hard to make a better product. So of like Japanese cars in the 80s-90s, where each generation car was better than the past. Then cost cutting sets in, and the rest is history. Ok, golden age may be wrong, but I can't think of the proper term to use.

So perhaps EVs are built better and they are still trying to make them even better.

And the thinking behind ICE vehicles would then be, "what can we get away with..."
 
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