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Discussion Starter #1
I’ve been looking into ported throttle bodies for the 3.6l and I’ve found that there are 2 main ones, a 78mm from bbk for $450 or a 80mm from modern muscle for $300. Obviously the 80mm sounds like the better deal but I haven’t seen any reviews on it before. I’m going to buy a tune from hemifever eventually to get the most I can out of the 3.6 but I want to get a ported tb and a catch can to go along with my cai, Borla exhaust, and RIPP coils before going with the tune. Any suggestions?
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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yes, take a breath.

we all love to mod our cars, but it's best to have a plan going into it, or we risk spending a lot of money and investing a lot of time modifying the vehicle onky to get very little extra performance back in return.

The coils and TB should be at the bottom if your list of mods. They have the lowest ROI of those mods you listed.

The CAI and exhaust will likely make the cars sound at WOT more pleasing to the ear, and that is something I deem important BTW, but their installation wont add much performance.

The CC is obviously not a perf mod, but it has benefits in other areas, so it's never a bad mod to do.

The custom tune will have the largest affect on the car's perf, but it will need to modified again after every new perf-adding mod. So save it for last.

Honestly, i wouldn't bother with the coils, and i would only consider the TB once i had also acquired an upgraded intake to match the extra airflow. But even then, the cylinders can only hold so much air, and making more available than they can hold does no good for adding performance. It just saps your available funds for other, more effective, mods.
 
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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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In the pic below, think of it like its your engine. Now, the red bottle is the combustion chambers in cylinder heads, the orange hose is the intake's runners, and the blue funnel is the TB.

WP_20190723_18_38_16_Pro.jpg

Now apply the same imagination to this pic with the upgraded TB. Sure there is more air that can flow into that funnel, but it won't get thru the orange hose any quicker, and it won't fill the red bottle any fuller.

WP_20190723_18_38_36_Pro.jpg

Keep this in mind when making the decision to buy an upgraded TB.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thank you for the awesome information. I’m thinking of going with the tune first and a cc just because I care for the car and plan on keeping it awhile. I can always do other small mods later down the road.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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The modern internal combustion engine, and all of its computer controlled aspects, is truly a model of efficiency. It takes the absolute minimum of raw resources (air and fuel) and produces almost as much power from them as is physically possible. To make it so that a modern engine suddenly produces more power than it did before some mod, you need to make a fairly drastic change. A super charger, nitrous oxide, bigger cam, etc. These are mods which can truly add performance to a modern engine, but they are not cheap. They are not cheap because they are major modifications to the way the engine operates.

We are a victim of our own success. We reap the benefits of having engines so efficient they can produce 300, 400, 500, or more HP and do it on pump gas, all while meeting strict emissions regulations, and do it in virtually any operating environment on the planet. I'm old enough to recognize when that was an impossible dream for a gasoline engine in an American made car. Yet here we are.

The downside to that is that there is very little left on the table by the factory setup that we can reclaim by modding. Back in the day, your brand new car's engine was so choked off and dialed back, that simply modding it so that it could perform up to its potential would easily yield noticeable results in the power department. And it wouldn't break the bank or take more than a couple weekends to do it.

Those days are long gone. When these cars roll off the factory floor, they are already performing almost as well as they possibly can. There is not much left to reclaim, and so modding for power has shifted upward considerably in terms of complexity, cost, and labor involved.

That doesn't mean we cannot still mod our cars and have fun doing it. But it does mean we need to adjust our expectations IMHO. Instead of modding to increase power output, I think it's more prudent to mod for a more enjoyable driving experience. This is especially true for the Challenger SXT with the 3.6L engine IMHO.

Reduce the amount of weight (both sprung and unsprung) the engine has to move around, increase the torque multiplication of the power already there by lowering the final drive ratio (the new A8 transmissions are an example of this), replace the horrid sounding exhaust with something that is much more pleasing to the ears, and so on and so forth.

Those are all areas which can be improved in the Challenger SXT to make driving the car more enjoyable IMO, yet none actually increase the amount of power the engine is putting out.

At the end of the day, there are 2 undeniable truths which the 3.6L engine is up against that will prove very difficult to overcome anytime a power adding mod is performed on it:
1) the engine is low on torque, and its relatively small displacement means its ultimate ceiling is still going to be low no matter what mods are done.
2) the car weighs too damned much!

Seriously, these cars come in at almost 4000 lbs. That's entirely too much weight for an engine to move around, especially considering the high-geared rear ends they are saddled with (still 2.65?). Any reduction in the amount of weight the car has to move around is a good thing. Conversely, any additional weight added to the car, especially unsprung weight (think: heavier wheels and tires), is a stone-cold performance sapper. Never add weight to the car; always reduce the amount of weight carried around when possible.

There are a couple of other points which should be kept in mind when modding these cars, but I feel like eyes have glazed over and attention has turned elsewhere by this point in the post. So I will save those for another time and cut this post off now.

This forum is a great resource for information and some of the people* are even a pleasure to interact with, so don't be afraid to post up and respond in kind. Most of all, don't forget to have fun while driving the car!

Nuke, OUT!


* - watch out for a guy on here called, well, @A Guy. Yeah, I don't know what's up with that either. But he's not one to be trifled with, that's for sure. I once questioned his abilities as a moderator here, and to put me in my place, HE MADE AN EARTHQUAKE HAPPEN!! No kidding, it was just a couple months ago out in California where he lives, look it up. That was @A Guy! He did that sh*t, on demand!
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you for all your wise information. Seems like the only way for engines to go now is just boost
 

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Welcome to Challengertalk jFritz ;) @Nuke , in his colorful fashion, has spoken the truth. If you are willing to spend the $500+ ($1000+ for 2015+ 3.6L) to add a tune, this will be the biggest, easy change you can make. You'll need to run the highest octane you can find, and to get the most out of it, log and get a custom tune.

These engines run a 10.2 to 11.3:1 compression ratio, 4 cams, high flow intake and exhaust manifolds. Not that there isn't room for improvement, they are designed with emissions and gas mileage in mind as well, but squeezing that last nth out of them is expensive.

Your improvements certainly won't be earthshaking :D

A Guy
 
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I have a Fastman ported throttle body on my 3.6 engine. It is beautiful, and you can see a difference between it and the stock throttle body for sure. I might have gained 2 HP. lol I don't have a tuner for my car, so maybe that would help. I just don't want to go any further down the rabbit hole of always looking for ways of more HP.
 
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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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I have a Fastman ported throttle body on my 3.6 engine. It is beautiful, and you can see a difference between it and the stock throttle body for sure. I might have gained 2 HP. lol I don't have a tuner for my car, so maybe that would help. I just don't want to go any further down the rabbit hole of always looking for ways of more HP.
Oh man, you're missing out! There is nothing more exhilarating than datalogging a couple 0-60mph or 55-120mph runs, pulling over and adjusting the tune based upon those logs, then pulling out and doing it all again, and again, until you've either eliminated all the KR or been stopped and ticketed for speeding twice within 10 min.

Fair warning though: It can become an obsession...or maybe even an addiction. Whatever, the point is that the compulsion to squeeze every last drop of performance from your latest mod by datalogging WOT run after WOT run can become a problem...really.

They say alcoholics have to come to the realization their drinking is hurting their lives before they will decide to do anything about it. It was Mothers Day 2012 when I had my moment of clarity with how hooked I had become on datalogging in my 2011 Challenger. I was taking an out if town trip to go see mom, who lives about 3 hours away, and we were going to have dinner together.

I was so far into my addiction, I was surprised when I showed up and she was upset with me...for being 2 hours late.

I tried to explain how i was getting some pernicious KR in the upper RPMs and had to stop many times on the trip down to adjust my tune and reload it so i could go WOT again and see if id gotten rid of it. But she was unmoved, and i dont blame her.

Moral to the story: Get a tuner! But be careful...they can drag you down into a pit of disappointment if you're not careful...
 
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Moral to the story: Get a tuner! But be careful...they can drag you down into a pit of disappointment if you're not careful...
Nuke, I must resist.

I bought a tuner for my 2 previous Challengers, but I'm not going there for my 2016. Now you not only have to buy the tuner, but a modified PCM as well. You are spending close to a grand for both of those together. I can't believe the amount of HP gained is worth $1000 based on my past experience.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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Nuke, I must resist.

I bought a tuner for my 2 previous Challengers, but I'm not going there for my 2016. Now you not only have to buy the tuner, but a modified PCM as well. You are spending close to a grand for both of those together. I can't believe the amount of HP gained is worth $1000 based on my past experience.
The destination is the journey...maybe not $1000 worth though, I agree.:D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I’d love to learn how to write my own tunes. It seems like it’d be really fun. I’m really big into cars and computers, I’ve built 9-10 pc’s within the last 4 years. My family are car lovers and my dad owned a German automotive shop for years when we lived down in California. It’s hard to go 2 years straight without getting something new it seems like. Fun fact is I’m only 17. I’ve worked the past 4 years proving myself and working for the car I have now. I’ve been paying the car payments ever since I turned 16. I’m extremely grateful and humble with my situation. I love doing things myself if I can and learning everything I possibly can.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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I’d love to learn how to write my own tunes. It seems like it’d be really fun. I’m really big into cars and computers, I’ve built 9-10 pc’s within the last 4 years. My family are car lovers and my dad owned a German automotive shop for years when we lived down in California. It’s hard to go 2 years straight without getting something new it seems like. Fun fact is I’m only 17. I’ve worked the past 4 years proving myself and working for the car I have now. I’ve been paying the car payments ever since I turned 16. I’m extremely grateful and humble with my situation. I love doing things myself if I can and learning everything I possibly can.
The ability to really get down into the car's tune and modify all of the parameters that it uses to run is available via an aftermarket tuner, but HP Tuners is the only company I am aware of that sells such an all-inclusive device.

The tuners @Slidd and I were referring to are not as capable when it comes to modifying the tune, and that's a good thing for the vast majority of applications I believe. DS's tuners will come with a few different canned tunes - tunes that have already been modified to use higher octane gasoline to squeeze some performance out of the engine, and allow the ability to load other, 3rd party, tunes as well.

Just for reference, on the best of days, the hottest of those DS canned tunes might only add 20-25 HP/TQ. That's a good amount given the fact that no parts have been added or replaced. However, it is not very cost effective since it costs $400-500 just to get there on 2014 and below LXs. Add an extra $500 like @Slidd mentioned for 2015+ LXs.

DiabloSport sells a few different models of these less-capable hand-held tuners, and other than being able to load the canned tunes (or load a custom tune done by someone else), there are relatively few other parameters you can change on the actual tune to customize it for your own personal car.

One of those you can change is the WOT Fuel parameter, and that is the one I have always played with to try to squeeze the few remaining HP/TQ I could out of a canned tune. It's not anything close to the customization you can do with an HP Tuner, but again, there is a reason the DS tuners don't allow you to change anything really important that could damage the engine or parts of it from configuration errors.

I actually did a couple of write-ups on using the DiabloSport tuner to datalog the engine's output while driving (THE most useful aspect of these hand-held tuners IMO) and then using those logs to change that WOT Fuel param to maximize performance. You can check those write-ups out below for an idea of what to expect if you decide to get one of the tuners:

https://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f108/datalogging-diablosport-tuner-266682/
https://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f108/modifying-canned-tunes-reduce-kr-266706/

(NOTE: I wrote those up many years ago, and some of the tuner specific details may be outdated now. I know there are a few things I'd like to go back and update, but I just haven't done it yet.)

If the car's computer was a typical aftermarket car stereo, the changes you can make to the tune with a DS tuner would be like being able to change only the balance or fade setting only on that car stereo. To change the volume, bass, treble, crossover points, etc. on that stereo, you would need the HP Tuner to allow that level of access.

Given that, the HP Tuner might sound like the only way to go, and I agree it is exponentially more powerful than the DS tuners when it comes to making changes, but unless a person has had lots and lots of training on how to modify a car's tune, making changes to their car's tune is a recipe for disaster. You would likely end up with a car which wouldn't stay running, if it even started, after a few attempts at modifying the tune.

That's not to say the ability to change whatever you want is always a bad thing. Once enough knowledge and experience has been amassed, going all-out and modifying the car's tune would certainly be a fun and fulfilling experience. It is one I have always thought I would attempt some day, but I am nowhere near informed enough to try something like that yet.

I'm still satisfied, for now, with what the DS Tuners give me, and so I may not ever try to step it up and get an HP Tuner to go all-out and make my own custom tune.

Check out those 2 links above for an idea of what the DS tuners can offer, and for an idea of what it's like to acquire and learn all the necessary things required to use one of the HP Tuners, you can hit up one of the members here that have become proficient in using them (all self-taught, for the most part). I know @ChallyTatum uses an HP Tuner, and he would probably be glad to answer any questions you have about them. Check the Tuner section of this site for other members that are in the advanced category of tuner usage.

Nuke
 
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Yeah, as Nuke pointed out HP tuners has way more capability and I am glad the forum members that were running it before me clued me in. If you want to learn more about how to tune these new dodges you should check out the HP tuners forum. I put together a collection of links that have helped me.


So far I have been tuning with NN on (PCM algorithms do all of the part throttle/closed loop stuff) which really isn't all that difficult. For the most part getting good data logs are the key. Hard to do where I live as I am surrounded by stop and go traffic...traffic lights are literally spaced out like mailboxes.

FWIW I would save the throttle body money and put it towards an HP tuner & cracked PCM. You will most likely get more gains tweaking VVT than slapping a different TB but I don't have any hard data nor do I have experience tuning a 3.6L.
 

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The Pork Wagon (‘14 Cop Charger)
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I’d love to learn how to write my own tunes. It seems like it’d be really fun. I’m really big into cars and computers, I’ve built 9-10 pc’s within the last 4 years. My family are car lovers and my dad owned a German automotive shop for years when we lived down in California. It’s hard to go 2 years straight without getting something new it seems like. Fun fact is I’m only 17. I’ve worked the past 4 years proving myself and working for the car I have now. I’ve been paying the car payments ever since I turned 16. I’m extremely grateful and humble with my situation. I love doing things myself if I can and learning everything I possibly can.
BTW, you youngsters have it way better than I did when I started out. When I was 17 and got my first vehicle, it wasn't anything nearly as nice as a Challenger. It was a '74 Chevy super cab long bed P/up with a 454 and 4 speed manual trans. The exhaust was repurposed sewer pipe, the windows were rolled up and down by the manual cranks, the horn was shorted out inside steering wheel so that it would honk as i turned corners, and there was no working a/c because it didn't even come from the factory with it.

the gas gauge didnt work, which was fine since it never got more than 8 MPG by my guestimations.

the alternator only worked intermittently and had to be prodded into providing power by revving engine past 2K RPM at startup.

the two bench seats were that awful vinyl material, but luckily they had previously been covered, but with those terrible saddle blanket type seat covers.

It took me 40 acres ro turn the thing around, and that's if the steering wheel did not detach itself mid-steer.

Come to think of it, that truck could have been a gigantic POS...if I had fixed it up, that is
:cool:
 
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I'm surprised no one is mentioning a diff swap to get better gearing. The 2015+ cars can use the diff and axles from a V8 car and you're good to go. I'm going to do 3.90's in mine to replace the 3.06's.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I'm surprised no one is mentioning a diff swap to get better gearing. The 2015+ cars can use the diff and axles from a V8 car and you're good to go. I'm going to do 3.90's in mine to replace the 3.06's.
let me know how that turns out because I’d do that if it doesn’t contract any problems
 

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let me know how that turns out because I’d do that if it doesn’t contract any problems
I got the info from someone else here who has already done it. I'll make sure to get good before and after performance numbers when I do it.
 

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I totally agree with MCM95403. Changing your 3.06's for 3.90's will be a night and day difference from a seat of the pants perspective. You may still need a tune for the gears and your mpg will suffer, but I'd do it before anything else personally. I changed from 3.55's (newly rebuilt 8.75 in a 73 Charger with a 340) to 3.23's and it is amazing what a difference even that small change made. But be warned that 3.06 to 3.90 may be a pretty big change. Someone else has already done this so it may be worth reading the thread and contacting them.

 
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