I agree at this point it is a problem with the bearing in the lifter.

If you are going to do oil analysis, the best place is Blackstone.

Is it worth it? Or is cutting open the filter at every oil change worth it? On this, I am not sure. Assuming an annual oil change at 15K miles for the 5.7 (twice as often for the 6.4), most cam failures would likely occur in the window rather than caught at the pending change. While failure is not an instant event, it also does not seen to be a long process discoverable over several oil changes.

I could see doing a couple analyses just to have a baseline, and send another sample if The Tick or other problem seems to be developing. But this is more in support of a diagnosis and not early detection. Same for cutting a filter open at that point or inspecting the VVT solenoid. Testing at Blackstone starts at $40 per sample.

For a fleet of vehicles, particularly long-haul diesel trucks, then oil analysis is a common tool for scheduling engine rebuilds. Better to rebuild as the rings or bearings reach a certain amount of wear rather than waiting for the eventual hard failure. For an individual 6.4 vehicle which has a good chance of never having a failure during ownership, banking the $800 over 10 years might be a better choice. $400 for a 5.7 with annual oil changes.

 

If you are going to do oil analysis, the best place is Blackstone.

What makes you state that Blackstone is best? Many feel the exact opposite.

But it's probably still better than trying to see what's going on by looking in the filter.

 

If you have bad parts, there is nothing much one can do to keep it from going well, bad.

However cutting filters and or getting oil analysis done is a huge step in catching anything odd early on. Specially if you do it enough to establish your cars trends. Like people every car is bit different and there are "universal averages" used for whatever engine. Bad thing about cutting filters, if you make any shavings with however you cut them you can get a false reading on the filter membrane.


Here is a few of my Oil Analysis from Blackstone Labs. First one will show when I first caught my lifter failure. Iron PPM was 38. Def elevated. I made the repair and you can see wear metals dropped but every so often have as spike if I had really used the car between tests.

Last analysis. However I think I may have containment this one using brake cleaner to clean the sample bottle of dirt hence the flashpoint being high where it has never been.

 

This type of cutter.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66490

 

That's a pricey tool for very occasional use. Unless i was cutting open filters frequently I'd use an angle grinder with a cutt off wheel.

 

Oil Analyzers is a very trusted and good lab, for example. That's where the sample ends up if using Amsoil, and I think Caterpillar also uses that lab.

The main gripe by those in the know is that Blackstone doesn't test for fuel dilution, which should be important to the diesel crowd. Instead they use some algorithm to come up with a value for that one.

 

Where does this info come from? I have had them test oil out of Aircraft and Diesel fuel trucks specifically looking for fuel in it and found it, confirming my fears of internal fuel pump leak (oil looked reddish) I did not tell them my suspicions and they found it.

 

Don't take my word for it. Search "Does Blackstone test for fuel dilution?" or something similar. It's not exactly a secret.

 

So they use a method off of flashpoint for fuel in oil calculations. Which in some areas is not accurate and in some can be close from what I am seeing. For diesel people I can see how this may be a big deal.

But for cars, unless some one is really messing something up I am not sure why this one specific deal would count them out as a oil tester personally. This is just me. They've done what I needed them to do for me to be satisfied.

 

Blackstone admits it themselves….

 

1. I use Blackstone. Until someone does a "blind" analysis of all the various oil analysis firms out there, not sure how anyone's opinion matters.

2. Can't speak for other oil analysis sites....can't speak for the accuracy of Blackstone's numbers....can't speak for the comparison of YOUR numbers with those of "similar" vehicles.

But, I have posted a few Blackstone records for my 1320. Sure you can find them. I want them mostly to prove I changed my oil in the event I have an issue, and for resale when that sad day comes.

3. For someone that HAS NOT done any testing, Blackstone will compare your numbers with those of "similar" vehicles.

4. I think by the time you see something in the filter, you are probably too late. I think by the time you see something in the oil it is probably too late.

5. Maybe try to magnetize your dipstick.

 

1. I use Blackstone. Until someone does a "blind" analysis of all the various oil analysis firms out there, not sure how anyone's opinion matters.

Alright, so it's far from including all labs out there, but several people have sent their samples to two or three different labs and then compare the results to Blackstone's reports.

That, to me, largely takes the opinion aspect out of the equation. Or should your opinion matter more than those peoples' findings?

 

A Guy

 

Thanks A Guy. I'm sure I would have done that incorrectly and would of made a mess!

 

I haven't paid attention to how close the results have been relative to each other, and which one is most true would be tricky for anyone to determine I'd think. But the comparisons I've seen have been quite close, with the (predictable) exception of Blackstone's fuel dilution numbers.

Again, labs that actually test for fuel dilution would logically be more accurate for that result. If that value isn't important to someone, then most any reputable lab would be fine I suppose. But I'd rather use one that actually tests, yet doesn't cost any more.

Come to think of it, I read somewhere that Blackstone will also test, but for a fee.

 

If fuel dilution is above 10%, does the actual number really matter? There is a serious injector leak (or maybe the oil driven high-pressure fuel pump on a diesel has an internal leak) or some other horribly rich condition requiring correction. I have nothing against any of the oil test labs, I just know BlackStone has a good reputation.

I did not post it intending to start any lab bashing, hopefully the thread can be read as having additional recommendations from those who know other companies.

 

True, once over 10% it's probably almost moot by how much over it is, but I think it's nice to know what the actual percentage is, anywhere between 0 and 10.

As far as other labs go, Oil Analyzers for example seem to have a very good reputation. In contrast, Blackstone does not as far as I've seen, but is definitely quite popular with many.

 

Oil Analyzers for example seem to have a very good reputation. In contrast, Blackstone does not as far as I've seen, but is definitely quite popular with many.

Would seem that being popular is a good reputation. As said before, I used them on a suspected fuel in oil issue. I never mentioned it in the paper work. But sure enough when they wrote back they mentioned I should be aware I had high levels and possibly may have a leaking injector or lift pump (oil bathed). And it was the Lift Pump that went bad.

So to me, B/S has been single out for one specific test as a bad shop. People always have to have some one to throw sticks at. And being popular makes an easy target.

 

Well, I'm not the one that complains about Blackstone not testing, I'm merely relaying what people that know way more about the subject than I ever will that do.

To me it's more like if buying, say an hour meter for a machine. Do I get one that's popular or one that's known to be more accurate, for the same money?

Then again, I've never been one to go with the masses, preferring to study things and draw my own conclusions, so maybe that also factors in?

 

Well, I'm not the one that complains about Blackstone not testing, I'm merely relaying what people that know way more about the subject than I ever will that do.

To me it's more like if buying, say an hour meter for a machine. Do I get one that's popular or one that's known to be more accurate, for the same money?

Then again, I've never been one to go with the masses, preferring to study things and draw my own conclusions, so maybe that also factors in?

Again Fair. I just ask. Who is determining what is more accurate, and on what exact basis? But let's remove the fuel deal though.

I went with them as they were my first UOA people I ever found. And have used them for quite some time.

 

Without the fuel dilution? As far as I know that only leaves their (supposedly) sometimes less than correct comments. It'd be a bit of a task to determine which lab is the most accurate, but it should be doable. Sending identical samples with known numbers to each one and see how close they get?

When I was doing a fair amount of oil sampling I never came across Blackstone. Didn't know they existed until joining a Cummins forum about eight years ago.

 

Okay...so forgive my not reading properly. You would like FUEL DILUTION numbers in the OIL ANALYSIS which is something Blackstone doesn't use a reliable method.

Got it.

 

It does not use a reliable method when it's above 10% from what I have seen online. I may be wrong.

 

Also, for myself, as I understand reading internet propaganda, the FUEL DILUTION may give you an indication of worn rings(Direct fuel injection, fuel gets past the rings and into the oil).

But I am not worried about rings. I am worried about lifters.

 

My opinion....get a magnetic drain plug and photograph what is captured at each oil change. You'll get both the health of your engine and remove any iron particles too fine to be captured by the oil filter. I take it a step further and also put a magnet on the oil filter. https://www.challengertalk.com/threads/magnetic-drain-plug-endorsement.711234/

 

A Guy's YT Video

Wow! Gotta try that. Thanks!

 

ALL of y’all are nutttttzzzzz

Save your money on OA and just do this instead……

 

ALL of y’all are nutttttzzzzz

Save your money on OA and just do this instead……

That is kind of a point I made earlier, If the engine gets the tick, I suspect it happens faster than an OA will detect. I would be happy to be proven wrong, the difference is a cam and lifter job vs a new block.

 

I always thought just generally it will give you trends. High copper might be bearings, could just be oil cooler, etc. Combinations of metals might be...ETC

From a baseline, then over time

The thing is, once you see a trend, what do you do? Tear apart a working engine? And then?

A Guy

 

One of the reasons, for me, is if I have to sell the car, I can show:
1. Exactly when oil was changed, as "verified" by a third party.
2. If there are any trends which would indicate a future issue.
3. In the event someone is comparing 2 cars, I would think the one with a "good" oil analysis would win....especially if you are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a used car.

 

For me, if I see a rise in metals, I changed my driving habits and do not take long trips in it. I then start to look into the oil filter for hard metal. If I find it then I stop driving the car until I get plans for rebuilding or replacing.

in no way does UOA prevent anything. It just give you either peace of mind or a early warning. I suspected a cam issue when I first got my charger. a 4K UOA showed very high iron which confirmed to me it was. I hadn't even had a misfire yet on it. I stopped driving it and got parts together to fix it.

 

Just last night my father was telling me that a friend of his has a Scat Pack with 4,500 miles on it. He's changed the oil twice already because he keeps finding a lot of metal shavings in the oil filter.

 

I became a very firm believer after buying a used vehicle and having the oil analyzed shortly afterwards. Thought it was odd that the seller had changed the oil before I showed up, even though I had asked him not to.

Well, the analysis showed coolant in the oil, which later turned out to be because of a bad cylinder liner, but the real win for me was that I still had a good core. It still cost about $15K to get a reman engine, but it could've been much worse had the oil analysis not been performed.

Another case was a new pickup with 500 miles on it, did an oil change and the analysis showed very high numbers of silicon. Most likely from leftover casting sand. In that case having the oil analyzed didn't really help any, just drive home the point of early first oil changes.

 

Mine ticks like a sewing machine, but I'm going to just keep feeding it good oil and enjoy it until it blows. When it blows I'll pull the engine and build it to be bulletproof.

 

When it blows, you may have metal through the oil passages and need a new engine.

My Hemis all tick like sewing machines, more like 8 sewing machines each. Noisy engines! But if you have "the" tick? Rebuilding sooner might save the block.

 

Just last night my father was telling me that a friend of his has a Scat Pack with 4,500 miles on it. He's changed the oil twice already because he keeps finding a lot of metal shavings in the oil filter.

just drive home the point of early first oil changes.

That's been my experience with new hemis too. Lots of glitter in the early low-mile oil changes. We recently got a 2025 Durango 3.6L and same thing. Lots of glitter. Maybe worse than the hemis. Changed at 468 then 1096 miles (new Mopar 349 filter each time). Will do a 3rd time at 3000 miles. Photos below of the 1st and 2nd dumps. I won't get into the weeds, but I think that fine metal does damage to the lifter roller/needle bearings and leads to premature failure. The 3.6L has roller/needle bearing cam followers that are known to get the tick too. My shop teacher used to repeat over and over to surgically clean freshly bored & machined blocks and to run clean solvent rags through the oil passages before assembly. Not seeing that here.

1st oil change - 468 miles - 2025 Durango 3.6L

2nd oil change - 1096 miles - 2025 Durango 3.6L

 

That's been my experience with new hemis too. Lots of glitter in the early low-mile oil changes. We recently got a 2025 Durango 3.6L and same thing. Lots of glitter. Maybe worse than the hemis. Changed at 468 then 1096 miles (new Mopar 349 filter each time). Will do a 3rd time at 3000 miles. Photos below of the 1st and 2nd dumps. I won't get into the weeds, but I think that fine metal does damage to the lifter roller/needle bearings and leads to premature failure. The 3.6L has roller/needle bearing cam followers that are known to get the tick too. My shop teacher used to repeat over and over to surgically clean freshly bored & machined blocks and to run clean solvent rags through the oil passages before assembly. Not seeing that here.

1st oil change - 468 miles - 2025 Durango 3.6L
View attachment 1144722
2nd oil change - 1096 miles - 2025 Durango 3.6L
View attachment 1144723

That's wild! The vehicle I traded for this Challenger back at the beginning of this year was a 2020 Grand Cherokee with the 3.6L and it had 202,000 miles when I traded it in. Only repair during that time was a water pump. The 3.6 is perhaps the best engine Stellantis has.

 

Also, magnetic drain plugs are our friend. They're kinda like a mini oil analysis.