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Thinking on it. Crutchfield's tech recommended using the crossovers supplied with the Kenwood KFX-XP6903C speakers, so a difference might be that I am effectively driving a discrete component crossover with an electronic crossover.

To my mind, best option would be an amp with a channel for each speaker pair and no discrete crossovers in the system, but that is not what was recommended and the sales person sort of poo poo'd the idea.
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Thinking on it. Crutchfield's tech recommended using the crossovers supplied with the Kenwood KFX-XP6903C speakers, so a difference might be that I am effectively driving a discrete component crossover with an electronic crossover.

To my mind, best option would be an amp with a channel for each speaker pair and no discrete crossovers in the system, but that is not what was recommended and the sales person sort of poo poo'd the idea.
OP here. Here’s my other thread after I got past the polarity thing. Installed my DSP/amp which does indeed perform the job of active crossover for my front components (among a bunch of other tasks too)

 
If your car came with a factory amp (at least with the newer 6-speaker Alpine system), the stock amp uses a separate amp channel for each speaker (dash, door and rear-deck) - there really is no need to use the inline crossovers that Kenwood supplies - in fact they are probably causing you grief if you are using them. The stock amp already has electronic crossovers applied in the stock amp, so it only sends bass freqs to the door speakers and only mid/high freqs to the dash speakers. If you don't use the in-line crossover, each speaker will be powered by it's own amp channel and you will want the dash speakers to be wired in reverse polarity (like they are from the factory). In this case, the 180 degree phase shift only matters when both the door and dash speakers are playing at the same time (again, without the in-line crossover).

If using the in-line crossover, then you probably missing between about 450hz and 800hz from the dash speakers. Really, the in-line crossovers are really meant to be used with the Kenwood door speakers (which you haven't even installed) - where the door and dash speakers are run on the same amp channel. They are designed to separate a full range single between the door midbass and dash speakers. I would not use them with your setup. When you install the Kenwood door speakers, you want to make sure to connect the speaker wires to the "active" terminals.

I would definitely try the Kenwood speakers without the in-line crossovers before going to a full-fledged amp setup - if you do so, make sure you use the "Active" terminals on the Kenwood woofer - and like I said,I would keep the dash speakers wired in reverse polarity - assuming the stock amp uses 12dB crossovers, it matters when the dash and door speakers are playing together (I guess it's possible that the OEM amp uses 6dB crossovers where it don't matter though).
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Also, for anyone about to add any lines coming off the factory amp, I can confirm this harness does work. The wiring assignments and colors were not accurate, but the male and female plugs and wires were high quality. Couldn’t have done this without this harness

 
If your car came with a factory amp (at least with the newer 6-speaker Alpine system), the stock amp uses a separate amp channel for each speaker (dash, door and rear-deck) - there really is no need to use the inline crossovers that Kenwood supplies - in fact they are probably causing you grief if you are using them. The stock amp already has electronic crossovers applied in the stock amp, so it only sends bass freqs to the door speakers and only mid/high freqs to the dash speakers. If you don't use the in-line crossover, each speaker will be powered by it's own amp channel and you will want the dash speakers to be wired in reverse polarity (like they are from the factory). In this case, the 180 degree phase shift only matters when both the door and dash speakers are playing at the same time (again, without the in-line crossover).

If using the in-line crossover, then you probably missing between about 450hz and 800hz from the dash speakers. Really, the in-line crossovers are really meant to be used with the Kenwood door speakers (which you haven't even installed) - where the door and dash speakers are run on the same amp channel. They are designed to separate a full range single between the door midbass and dash speakers. I would not use them with your setup. When you install the Kenwood door speakers, you want to make sure to connect the speaker wires to the "active" terminals.

I would definitely try the Kenwood speakers without the in-line crossovers before going to a full-fledged amp setup - if you do so, make sure you use the "Active" terminals on the Kenwood woofer - and like I said,I would keep the dash speakers wired in reverse polarity - assuming the stock amp uses 12dB crossovers, it matters when the dash and door speakers are playing together (I guess it's possible that the OEM amp uses 6dB crossovers where it don't matter though).
Good thoughts I think but maybe with one caution, part of what the crossover does is prevent low frequency high amplitude current (bass = power) from destroying the tweeter/mid speakers. From the Kenwood documentation "Note: The power rating of the product specification requires attached crossover network". I don't have the experience to make an intelligent comment here about the best way to go, but the Crutchfield tech seemed confident in his recommendation as if it was a question that came up with some regularity.

Will install the bass speakers next and see what happens and go from there, I don't think it will change much besides volume but time will tell.
 
Good thoughts I think but maybe with one caution, part of what the crossover does is prevent low frequency high amplitude current (bass = power) from destroying the tweeter/mid speakers. From the Kenwood documentation "Note: The power rating of the product specification requires attached crossover network". I don't have the experience to make an intelligent comment here about the best way to go, but the Crutchfield tech seemed confident in his recommendation as if it was a question that came up with some regularity.

Will install the bass speakers next and see what happens and go from there, I don't think it will change much besides volume but time will tell.
Yeah, I ran those same speakers for quite a while - at high volumes (on an aftermarket 75W x 6 RMS amp) with crossovers as low 300hz - without issue. Trust me, you won't have any issues with the stock amp. :)

Since the stock amp doesn't send any bass to the dash speakers, you don't have to worry about it. Again, the stock amp only send bass to the doors and only sends mids/highs to the dash via it's internal crossovers - so the dash speakers will never see any real bass. If you think about it, even the crappy stock speakers survived just fine with the stock amp without any passive crossovers or "bass blockers". :)

Unfortunately, I didn't have my current knowledge level or test/measurement equipment back when I was using the stock amp, but I have read that it crosses over around 450hz between the door and dash speakers. So the dash speakers will only get from ~450hz and up sent to them.

In fact, I've never ran the Kenwood inline crossovers. :)

Now if your car came with the non-amplified system, it would be a different story - because then you do need a passive crossover (or bass blocker) to keep bass from being sent to the dash speakers (since the non-amplified system sends full range signal to the shared door/dash speakers. The Crutchfield guys probably just don't know all of the different Challenger configs as well as us owners do.

I know that to you, I'm just some random guy on the internet, so I can understand the hesitation to trust what I'm saying (really, I can) - but if you have the Alpine 6-channel amplified system, you really don't want to use the in-line crossover than came with the Kenwoods - it will just keep them from performing to their potential.
 
Got it. Installed the crossovers based on the techs advice and because I did not know if I would decide to install the new more powerful 2 channel amp (front and door speakers wired in parallel) and did not want to have to mess with installing the front speakers a second time if I did install the amp.
If I decide to return the new amp and run with the oem I will play around with how they are connected.
 
It's amazing how "complicated" even OEM car audio has become. I mean even the Challenger Alpine system has a 6-channel amp with active crossovers, DSP, time-alignment and has to deal with stuff like bluetooth phone calls, navigation prompts and warning chimes.

Gone are the days of simple head-unit replacements and speaker swaps. :) It's a shame they don't allow you to customize the stock amp/DSP - because then a lot of people wouldn't even need to replace/augment the OEM amp - but I guess they have to keep things "simple" to keep costs down. Wouldn't it be nice if they had a smartphone app to let you customize the OEM amp crossovers and EQ via bluetooth? :)

We can wish, I guess.

At least we have the PAC AmpPro 4 to make integration with external amps super easy - a lot of cars don't even have that option....
 
Do not want to wear out helpful folks, but am planning on installing door speakers today and the next thing will probably be to alleviate gross ignorance on what to do with the amp and digital interface. If you have any helpful hints they would be appreciated, I am wondering:

1. Where are people putting new amps and digital interfaces?
2. What wire routing works between the new amp and the battery, new hole in firewall?
3. Where do you splice new speaker wiring from amp into existing speaker wiring?
4. Is there documentation publicly available on the oem stereo system (wire routing, component location, etc) without me spending whatever they charge for a shop manual?

Have not had much luck with internet searching for u-tube videos and etc.

It's amazing how "complicated" even OEM car audio has become.
I think it is a major pain in the ass and this ain't my first rodeo on similar stuff. I think/hope we will get to a point where somebody details the installs so it is paint by the numbers rather than try to become part audio engineer and part installation technician just to figure out how to get the job done.
 
Do not want to wear out helpful folks, but am planning on installing door speakers today and the next thing will probably be to alleviate gross ignorance on what to do with the amp and digital interface. If you have any helpful hints they would be appreciated, I am wondering:
My comments are in-line below:


1. Where are people putting new amps and digital interfaces?
I personally put the external amp and DSP in the trunk, where the spare tire would normally go:
Image


I cut a board to fit into the "foam" think in the trunk, wrapped it in an inexpensive material used for this type of thing and secured the board using a spare-tire hold-down bolt (I documented this elsewhere on the forum - can find and post a link if interested)

I installed the PAC AmpPro 4 in the area underneath the steering wheel (it connects to the back of the OEM head-unit).


2. What wire routing works between the new amp and the battery, new hole in firewall?
If you install the amp in the trunk, the power wiring to the battery is SUPER easy since the battery is also in the trunk. :)


3. Where do you splice new speaker wiring from amp into existing speaker wiring?
I used the PAC harness mentioned above, which allowed me to run speaker wires from the amp in the trunk to the area where the stock amp is located. Using the PAC harness allowed me to avoid running speaker wires up through the dash and into the doors - so I used the new speaker wires from the amp to the OEM amp location and the the stock speaker wires from the OEM amp location to do the door and dash speakers. The stock speaker wires are fine for most normal aftermarket power levels. Plus, with this method, I didn't have to cut ANY stock wires. Since the amp is in the trunk, I ran new wires from the amp directly to the rear speakers (easy, short runs).


4. Is there documentation publicly available on the oem stereo system (wire routing, component location, etc) without me spending whatever they charge for a shop manual?
I have the Crutchfield docs, but you probably already have those. There are also some libraries that allow access to Chilton guides, but honestly, I didn't find any of that was necessary - especially if you use the PAC harness mentioned above.

I'd highly recommend the PAC AmpPro 4 to integrate an aftermarket amp. You really don't want to use the speaker-level outputs from the OEM amp, because those signals are EQ'd for the factory speakers, may use allpass filters, may have bass roll-off at higher volumes, may cause integration-related issues with phone calls, you'd also be amplifying any OEM chimes, etc, etc, etc. The PAC AmpPro 4 basically puts the OEM head-unit into a "low-level" output mode and gives you clean, flat line-level outputs directly from the OEM head-unit. Don't have to worry about any summing, de-EQ, bass roll-off, OEM integretion, etc. The PAC AmpPro devices are fantastic to have - if they are available for a car you have (like the Challenger), it's a no-brainer to use it. It will also give you a subwoofer output, a bass-knob, an optional optical digital output, you can configure the Bass/Mid/Treble controls, adjust the "minimum volume level", reproduce OEM chimes, etc. It adds cost, but makes your life so much easier and allows you to use ANY aftermarket amp. I really can't recommend it enough.

Lastly, while I wanted a true "SQ" audio system, I didn''t want to deal with a big subwoofer box in the trunk. I decided on a JBL BassPro SL fully-integrated under-seat subwoofer. It's a self-contained subwoofer with a 125W RMS amp and a low-profile 8" subwoofer in a box that is less than 3" in height. It fits really well under the passenger seat and really gives you the low-end that you'd otherwise be missing without a dedicated sub.

I think it is a major pain in the ass and this ain't my first rodeo on similar stuff. I think/hope we will get to a point where somebody details the installs so it is paint by the numbers rather than try to become part audio engineer and part installation technician just to figure out how to get the job done.
The PAC AmpPro 4 is your friend here - takes care of all of the "OEM integration" complications for you and gives you aftermarket-line line-level outputs from you OEM head-unit. At that point, it's no different than adding an aftermarket amp to an aftermarket head-unit.

Hope this helps - don't hesitate to ask if you have any other specific questions.
 
Discussion starter · #32 · (Edited)
Here's the wire color translation I made for that PAC APH-C01 harness. This was for my 2019. The PAC harness comes with wires already flagged per their wiring diagram, but their wiring diagram and wire flags didn't match my car. Dodge's pinout diagram was accurate, but also had some confusing ways to name the pin assignments. I made this just for myself to not get confused. This is for a Alpine 6 speaker 2019.

In my case, I was taking speaker level out from the factory amp and sending it to my DSP/AMP, and then looping it back on a return line to connect to the factory speaker wires (which originate at the factory amp of course). So I had 12 splices out and 12 splices in (24 total splices) at the Dodge amp (via this harness - so no cutting factory wires), and then the same 24 splices in & out at my DSP unit which is under my driver seat.

That PAC AMP pro 4 interface unit that Jtrosky referecned didn't exist 5 years ago when I bought my original gear; otherwise I think that's the way I'd go today. I almost bought one anyway on this new re-installation just to get a digital signal to my processor (as opposed to speaker level send), but couldn't bear an extra $400 since I already owned all this stuff.

I would still want the DSP and the EQ features I have now though (as opposed to PAC amp Pro 4 straight into separate amplifiers). So that's a lot of gear. I kind of like having this single little box that I can log into with a PC.

LabelsAbbreviationPAC HARNESS APH-CH01 WIRE COLORSHarness # (1 is the larger white colored connector, 2 is the smaller black colored connector)
Dash Right TweeterIPR +Gray/Red
1​
Dash Right TweeterIPR -Gray/Blu
1​
Dash Left TweeterIPL +White/Red
1​
Dash Left TweeterIPL -White/Blu
1​
Front Right DoorFRD +Gray
2​
Front Right DoorFRD -Gray/BLK
2​
Front Left DoorFLD +White
2​
Front Left DoorFLD -White/BLK
2​
Rear LeftRL +Black/WH
2​
Rear LeftRL -Black
2​
Rear RightRR +Brown
2​
Rear RightRR -Brown/BLK
2​
 
In my case, I was taking speaker level out from the factory amp and sending it to my DSP/AMP, and then looping it back on a return line to connect to the factory speaker wires (which originate at the factory amp of course). So I had 12 splices out and 12 splices in (24 total splices) at the Dodge amp (via this harness - so no cutting factory wires), and then the same 24 splices in & out at my DSP unit which is under my driver seat.

That PAC AMP pro 4 interface unit that Jtrosky referecned didn't exist 5 years ago when I bought my original gear; otherwise I think that's the way I'd go today. I almost bought one anyway on this new re-installation just to get a digital signal to my processor (as opposed to speaker level send), but couldn't bear an extra $400 since I already owned all this stuff.

I would still want the DSP and the EQ features I have now though (as opposed to PAC amp Pro 4 straight into separate amplifiers). So that's a lot of gear. I kind of like having this single little box that I can log into with a PC.
Ah, I was kind of curious why you didn't use the AmpPro 4. It really is an installers dream when available. But I can also understand not wanting to spend the extra money for it if you already have a device that can do the de-EQ'ing automatically though. End result will be similar.

Just for comparison in regards to number of connections, with the AmpPro device, I have a single thin signal cable going from the AmpPro to my DSP (a TOSLink digital cable) - and then 6 RCAs from the DSP to the AMP (but they are right next to each other). The digital cable is also 100% "noise free" - no chance of interference with digital. The only "downside" to digital is that it's 2-channel only (L and R) - so you can no longer fade from front->rear from the head-unit anymore (you can still do that via the DSP though, since it creates up to 8 separate output channels from the 2 input channels). I'm sure you know this already though. :)

I'm still un-decided on the "all-in-one box" vs. "multiple boxes" thing. While it's nice having a single box for everything (OEM integration, amp and DSP), it also makes it harder to upgrade only one part later if you want - like if you wanted to upgrade to a newer DSP later - or to a more powerful amp later. You'd either have the replace the whole thing or keep it and only use certain parts of it. Or if there is a hardware issue, then you'd also have to replace the whole thing. But it does make install cleaner and easier. Pros and cons, just like anything else. Obviously, I went the "separates" way, but Helix also sells a nice 6-channel amp with built-in DSP that sure is nice - would probably consider that myself down the road.

I completely agree that a DSP is of huge importance if you want a true "SQ" system. Most people seem intimidated by DSP's, but they can make a huge difference in the overall sound quality. I can't even imagine going without one now. You can learn them little by little though and make incremental improvements as you learn - it's not like you have to learn it all before you can use your system. I personally feel that a good DSP is just as important as good speakers. I didn't know squat about this stuff when I started on the Challenger, but now I can tune the DSP like it's nothing. :) I absolutely love the Helix DSP.3. 31-band-per-channel parametric EQ, time-alignment, crossovers, levels, added features like augmented bass processing (makes a big difference with my little under-seat sub!), auto-input switching, extremely flexible and fantastic sound quality. Very expensive though (there is always one "gotcha!"!).


Feeling a bit guilty about the effort you folks have put into communication, I owe somebody a few beers. Hopefully the information will be useful to several folks.

Digesting.
That's why the forum is here - to help each other! Don't worry, 6 months down the road, you'll be explaining all of this crap to the next guy looking to upgrade his audio system. That's just how it works. :)
 
We had a devil of a time figuring out how you are supposed to connect Ampro-ch41 integration interface and Kenwood XR401-4. After quite a bit of research this is what was suggested for a 2020 Charger with the 6 speaker Alpine system by Jesse (Great Tech!) at Crutchfield. IT HAS NOT BEEN INSTALLED YET AND IF IT WORKS IT WILL NOT BE RIGHT FOR NON-IDENTICAL OEM SYSTEMS. Posted with permission of the author.
1004379


Also found out that if you use a Mac PC you can not upload AP4-CH41 adjustment software or firmware revision updates, so I guess I'm going to borrow a relatives pc.

Other tidbit, unscrew door lock knobs and door pulls straight out, on other vehicles the door popped in at the top vertically and then the lower section swung in. I left doors connected except for one small cable & that was plenty good for swapping speakers.

1004380
 
I see that you are using a 4-channel amp, so I just wanted to clarify my earlier statements. The statements I made about not using the in-line crossover supplied with that Kenwood speaker set is only if you are using the OEM 6-channel amp or an aftermarket 6-channel amp. With a 4-channel aftermarket amp, you will definitely need the in-line crossovers that come with the Kenwood, because you will be running the door and dash speakers on the same amp channel (they "share" an amp channel).

I just wanted to clarify that in case anyone else runs across this thread in the future.

In my case, I went with a 6-channel aftermarket amp so that I could control each speaker individually via my DSP - and since there are 6 amp channels (like the OEM amp), the in-line crossovers supplied with the Kenwood set weren't needed (the crossovers are handled by the amp or DSP).

Good luck with your install! Looking forward to hearing your results.

And yeah, I ran into the same thing with the door panels - on my other car, I was used to having to "hanging" the door panel on the top of the door first - where that isn't needed with the Challenger - they just go straight on and straight off (once you remove the door lock thing, like you said).
 
We had a devil of a time figuring out how you are supposed to connect Ampro-ch41 integration interface and Kenwood XR401-4. After quite a bit of research this is what was suggested for a 2020 Charger with the 6 speaker Alpine system by Jesse (Great Tech!) at Crutchfield. IT HAS NOT BEEN INSTALLED YET AND IF IT WORKS IT WILL NOT BE RIGHT FOR NON-IDENTICAL OEM SYSTEMS. Posted with permission of the author.
I was hesitant to even do this, because I don't want to cause confusion, but I believe that the image from the Crutchfield tech is slightly incorrect, so I edited his image to what I believe is correct for your install. Hopefully, this reduces confusion... :)

First, just to clear things up a little - the two "ports" on the OEM amp are not really "input and output" ports - because there are actually speaker outputs on both ports. In your case, since you aren't running a 6-channel amp, all of the outputs that you need are on the one labeled port #2 in my diagram - so in your case, you don't need to do anything with port #1 - you can just leave it connected as is from the factory. There is no cable that goes from the AmpPro to the OEM amp port #1 like in his picture (he has it labeled "White plug from AmpPro interface") - such a wire doesn't exist at all. You would only need to use the white-connector harness included with the PAC APH-CH01 harness package if you needed to connect you amp to the dash speakers separately, which you don't (your amp is going to connect to the door speakers and the Kenwood in-line crossover that comes with the Kenwood speakers sends audio from the door speakers to the dash speakers).

You can connect the APH-CH01 harness with the white connector to OEM amp port #1 if you want (the cable that was originally plugged into port #1 would connect to the other end), but there really is no need or use since you don't need any of the wires that the white-connector harness provides, so it not needed and will just cause un-needed clutter.

Hopefully, this helps and doesn't cause more confusion.

Image



If you look at the AmpPro manual, you'll see that there is no connection between the AmpPro and the OEM amp. The AmpPro only connects to the head-unit itself via the supplied T-harness. Also, if you look at the PAC APH-CH01 harness manual, you'll see what I mean about speaker outputs being on OEM amp port 1 and 2 but the outputs on OEM amp port 1 are just for tweeters (dash speakers) and a subwoofer output (which you don't have). If for some reason the APH-CH02 manual is incorrect, you can always connect the white-connecter harness to OEM port #1 if you need access to those outputs (the ones labeled "Front Left/Rright Tweeter") - but if you notice, even in the diagram from Crutchfield, he doesn't have you using any of the output wires from that harness either. :)
 
Thanks.

Wanted to call PAC tomorrow anyway to ask about a couple other things, will see what they say.

Crutchfield thought the second cable was needed for a logic/communications related issue, not sure if they were thinking something to do with chimes and etc (guess).
 
All righty then.

When you compare the wire color connection table on post 32 with the wire color connection tables for the APH-CH01 cable assemblies this thing seems to make sense.

Black connector unplugs at factory amp, this isolates the factory amp from the door and rear speakers, nothing is plugged back in to factory amp here. The connector removed from the factory amp plugs back in to the new black APH-CH01 connector with the longer wire harness, the loose wires on the harness connect to the new amp rear speaker channels you have chosen and the door speaker channel you haver chosen. So now the door and rear speakers are isolated from the factory amp and connected to the new amp.

White connector unplugs from factory amp and the new white APH-CH01 cable assembly plugs into the factory amp with the other side plugging into the connector that was originally on the factory amp. At this point you have isolated the factory amp from the dash speakers and retained "pass through" signals that must remain connected to the oem amp even though you will not be using it to drive any speakers. Long pigtail of wires from new white harness are used to connect new amp output channel(s) to dash speakers, in my case door and dash speakers are wired to the same new amp output.

Short pigtails of wires are not used if you are not using the factory amp to drive any speakers.

Pretty much exactly what Jtrosky said except I'm connecting door (woofer) and dash (tweeter & mid) to the new amp output channel by retaining existing factory wiring and making a parallel connection at the new amp terminals.

Per conversation with PAC technician today:
1. APH-CH01 is appropriate for 2020 with the 6 speaker alpine system (asked because my cut sheet says 2007-2017).
2. You must keep the factory amp in the system even if you are not going to power any speakers from it.
3. They have no definite plans to make it possible to use their tuning software or flash upgrades with an apple computer. The question comes up very often so maybe someday.
4. Default settings for the AP4-CH41 (R.2) provide a "flat" input to your new amplifier. System should be fine without using their tuning software but you will not be able to optimize.
5. For my system you connect the 8 pin plug connector on their T harness that comes with the AP4-CH41 (R.2). (Label on the plug says "use in factory amplified applications only" - didn't know if that meant factory amplified before the installation (yes) or factory amplified after the installation (no)).

I have a portable radio that I may use to drive speakers to verify correct wiring if anything gets weird, they recommend chasing things out/verifying with a tone generator but I do not want to buy one, I expect the post 32 table is correct for my car also and will start out by assuming that is true and then just verifying things with an ohmmeter to make sure I see the speaker resistance expected.
 
Nice. Sounds like you have a solid plan. Just make sure to use the Kenwood in-line crossover for the dash speakers and make sure to use the "low pass" terminal on the Kenwood 6x9 door speaker (instead of the "bypass" terminal) - otherwise, the door speaker will play all freqs instead of just midbass, which you don't want.

A few other tips for the AmpPro:

1. Make sure to connect the bass knob even though you aren't using a sub. You can use it to adjust the "minimum volume level" and the warning chime volume (which is nice!) without needing a windows device. Depending on where you install the AmpPro, you can run the bass knob to the glove box or the center console. I put mine in the glove box.
2. Make sure to set the AmpPro to 4v outputs. You can select 4v or 5v outputs with the DIP switches, but PAC support has said that 4v outputs actually have less noise (which is normally backwards, but the AP4 was designed for 4v output and setting to 5v goes beyond it's designed output voltage). They do that for compatibility with some devices, but 4v is actually cleaner.
3. While you can't adjust the Bass/Mid/Treble center freqs and Q's without a Windows device, I wouldn't bother changing them anyway. The defaults work on really well. Basically, the defaults will allow your head-unit Bass/Mid/Treble controls to work like they always did, which is really nice to have.

That is all that I can think of off the top of my head...

Good luck and make sure to report back after the install!
 
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